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About LinkBacksHave you seen the formula?Originally Posted by The Hand
Eligible to Vote - Will Vote 'IN' ('Remain')
Eligible to Vote - Will Vote 'OUT'
Eligible to Vote - Undecided
Ineligible to Vote - Would Vote 'IN' ('Remain') If I could
Ineligible to Vote - Would Vote 'OUT' if I could.
Ineligible to Vote - Would be undecided right now.
Have you seen the formula?
As a total politics n00b can someone point me to good resources detailing without to much bias the pros and cons of each side?
Salazaar : <Touching wood as I write this...>
Sounds legit, I mean this report is from the same department that said we would've eliminated the deficit by 2015, who under estimated how much we'd be borrowing by £257 billion, who over estimated the UKs economic growth by £100 billion, and who under estimated the percentage of debt to GDP by 13%, what's not to trust.
I'm not sure if there's such a thing as an unbiased view of each sides pros and cons as (IMO) whether something is a pro or a con depends on how it effects you personally, having said that i use Full Fact.org a great deal as it cuts through the BS, PR, and spin from both sides by looking at the facts that backup the claims, you may have to do some digging for EU specific stuff though as it examines the validity of facts on more subjects than just the EU.
Last edited by Corky34; 18-04-2016 at 12:41 PM.
If only....
There are some things we can and do know and other things which are uncertain. Most of the economic issues are educated guesses, approximations, which, as one would expect, get more hazy the further forward people try to project.
The historical side is a matter of public record - albeit very involved and complicated.
The non-economic future policy side is also uncertain (since it's the future), however, it can be based on past actions & behaviour, present law and actions etc.
The super-simplified version as far as I see it:
PRO - The EU offers a good number of ideas and benefits, particularly in terms of convenience, for example, easier travel, easier international-based work, "free" market etc.
CON - Many of these good ideas can be double-edged - e.g. free movement vs. problematic immigration.
You could sort of sum these up as good ideas that need improving (although some might consider some of these un-fixable).
PRO - A wider, more communicative and more secure Europe with less or no war. One of the BIG ideas behind the EU was to reduce or end war in Europe by bringing nations together. Additionally, it aims to make Europe a single entity which carries more wait on the global stage. There has been decent success in these areas.
CON - A more unified Europe means you have to find a way to unify everything and that's no easy take, possible an impossible task. Economy, law, security, etc. The EU at present is often criticised for being bloated and wasteful in terms of bureaucracy and money/running costs, and also resulting in some very stupid laws that can hinder an individual nation (i.e. the UK) in terms of business, immigration etc. In contrast to those BIG ideas are other BIG ideas that suffer - for example, Sovereignty and Democracy. Some of the biggest ideas there are in terms of forming a society, having both the freedom and power to be responsible for one's own progress and advancement.
Big Talking Points:
Economy - Tons of discussion about this but not a lot of clarity. Will leaving the EU be good or bad for the UK in terms of being prosperous economically? Many say it'll be bad. Some say it'll be good. Still others say it won't make much difference in the long run. The only thing most people agree on is there is uncertainty about what will happen if the UK leaves, and there's a reasonable chance it could be a bit rocky at first. If the UK votes to remain in the EU then things are expected to continue along current lines and trends (although pro-brexit supporters argue point to that not being a good thing in terms of the Euro struggling and other instability in the EU).
More to come - no time right now... (people can now dissect all this and shoot it down).
No trees were harmed in the creation of this message. However, many electrons were displaced and terribly inconvenienced.
Well, you did say......
PRO - A wider, more communicative and more secure Europe with less or no war. One of the BIG ideas behind the EU was to reduce or end war in Europe by bringing nations together. Additionally, it aims to make Europe a single entity which carries more wait on the global stage. There has been decent success in these areas.
(people can now dissect all this and shoot it down).
The EU trying to expand it's influence to the Ukraine caused a civil war with Russia getting involved and has increased tensions between Russia and the west a considerable amount.
The Association agreement between the EU and Ukraine was clearly a first step into bringing them into the EU as a full member years down the line and was only ever going to achieve the anger of Putin and the anger of large parts of the Ukrainian people.
I will be voting out most of what this government has said is total BS. why should we have another country/state decide how we as a country define our rights and laws and cant even remove illegal immigrants or convicted felons because of the European court of human rights. I was born on the 5th of November so I kind of tells you how I feel about government.
Europe is a two tier system with the likes of Greece, Spain, Portugal and to a lesser extent Italy second tier countries embracing the euro but not being on the same level as Germany and France they will always be the under dogs, Do we really want to go down the same route with Germany calling the shots, because we will never get policy change as we are disliked by most of Europe so how does staying in benefit us
paying In 350million a week to be a member of the club the money could be better spent at home.
I would say that's my 2pence worth but I think it may have been closer to 5................................................
Basically there are too many people whining about blaming somebody else for their problems - ATM that is the EU. If we leave the EU it probably will be the Scots or the Irish or the Welsh who have caused the problems.
After that it will be anybody who is not white,or not Christian or not white enough. The "immigrants" or "descendents of immigrants". Then it will be the Londoners stealing all the wealth and so on.
You need to ask yourself a good question - the blamegamers,if they get their wish and we leave the EU,what happens if the problems do continue?? Will they put up and shut up or go and try to pin the blame on somebody else?
I have seen enough of the stupid xenophobia and nationalism and blaming of others for problems in another country I lived in. If it is not a "boogeyman" neighbouring country or countries,it is some enemy inside it. The alarm bells ring for me,when I see people thinking of a "quick fix" by blaming large groups of "other" people.
In the end the EU is not to blame for our ills.
It is poor decisions from governments in the last 50 years and poor decisions by people themselves. Maybe if the UK stopped living in the past trying to think it is a world power,we would have not interfered in the middle east or other countries for a century causing so many problems which are coming home to roost.
It was poor economic decisions by BOTH Labour and The Conservatives which lead to the problems we had in the last 40 years - we have had at least three recessions in the last 40 years. Not the EU boogeyman or immigrants or The Easter Bunny.
Then you have Europe bearing the brunt of the refugee problem - we,France and the US went and destroyed Libya as a country and then interfered in countless other countries in the last 15 years. We helped promote instability and now it is sucking the rest of Europe into it.
Many Eastern European countries,Italy,etc and suffering because of what we did and they have had to accept far more people than we will ever take.
Some people in the UK need to travel out there and see the massive problems. One of my mates travelled around Europe for a few months recently and he was just left speechless at what is happening. This is ENTIRELY the fault of the UK,France and the US poking their noses somewhere else just to "show off" that they are "BIG" military powers.
Yet,people are now deciding whether we should run away or not.
The UK is at the other end of Europe separated by a sea and other European countries are dealing with far more refugees than we are.
We should be trying to help our brothers and sisters in Europe,not leaving them out to dry.
What happens if something bad happens to use?? It will be Europe who will help us the most.
People need to look at the rest of the world and realise how much suffering and pain is out there. We have it lucky here.
Last edited by CAT-THE-FIFTH; 19-04-2016 at 09:57 AM. Reason: Edited to reduce issues.
How much do we get back through various subsidies?
Less than half.
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/news...EU-budget.html
https://fullfact.org/europe/our-eu-m...ee-55-million/
But Ukraine has been it's own country and should be able to choose who it allies to, if any at all. The EU was hardly pushing itself into Ukraine. If anything, I would expect the EU to be a lot more cautious when accepting new members if only because of Greece's economic woes.
I am not sure if I will be in the UK when the voting takes place, so I haven't put the kind of thought I would if I knew I was voting and am therefore officially undecided. But as far as "ideals" are concerned, I really wish that the world, and not just EU, would be more united overall. I really wish it was possible (or easier) to move from countries to countries (and not just in the confinements of the EU), not just a tourist, but as a tax paying resident. Basically freedom of movements is of such importance to me that I think it would weigh a lot in my decision.
CAT-THE-FIFTH (19-04-2016)
The Russians mistrust the EU not due to it being European but are paranoid thinking it is an American proxy of sorts,ie,linked with NATO.
You should read these comments from the former security of defence under Clinton:
http://www.theguardian.com/world/201...caused-by-west
Sadly,the UK and Europe are seen as not having their own identity. Hence sadly we are caught in-between the cold war between the US and Russia.
BBC fact checking is actually quite good IMO - they take all the sound bites and prove or disprove them
the latest £4300 is rubbish btw - operation FEAR is in full swing
Just like operation blame a boogeyman for all our problems is in full swing.
Our current economic problems are nothing to do with the EU but down to poor economic management by countless governments - remember we still use the pound and are not part of the Euro.
So can't blame the EU boogeyman for that.
Oh and us destroying Libya meaning there was no stable government to stem illegal immigrants was our doing
Can't blame the EU boogeyman for that.
Our interference in the Middle East and us allowing proxies to use weapons we and the us supplied legally is nothing to do with the EU.
Can't blame the EU boogeyman for that.
At the same time many of the Euro-skeptics look at the US for inspiration.
A country made of what are essentially nation states in a union, stronger than their individual parts.
Oh...wait.
But I am sure we will be OK by ourselves with the BRICS trying to foster closer union together and an increasing number of countries in the Americas,Africa and Asia doing the same.
Why do you think we hang on the coat tails of the US? We dumped the commonwealth and have hardly any resources.
People need to think 50 years ahead not for short term feel good factor from blamegaming.
But if things don't work out it will be some other boogeyman.
It is the same in life. If you keep playing a victim blaming everybody else instead of manning-up/fortifying then you go nowhere. The same goes wirh countries.
Last edited by CAT-THE-FIFTH; 19-04-2016 at 11:08 AM.
both sides are playing the game - I try to avoid printed media nowadays as its biased rubbish.
as for the rest of what you said - some would say joining the common market was the first step in that problem....
am trying to fiund a video from a comedian someone showed me about it all - made me laugh (blame the eu , blame thatcher etc)
I think this silly referendum is deflecting from more serious problems we need to address here. Personally I think it is more a cunning reflection from those which are far more difficult to address.
the rich get more money at the expence of the sheep- the `living wage` its just breadcrumbs - more of the same if we leave the EU with the tories in government.
Sad to say , but looking back on 2010>2015 , you can already see the brakes the libdems had on the tories.
CAT-THE-FIFTH (19-04-2016)
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