Transgender Children

[Zak33]

I typed this.. and deleted it.. and came back again

Here it is

/deep breath

[Zak33]

Although everything Serious Sam has typed is complex...I've read it a few times and find myself agreeing with him fully......now that I understand the information.

the most vital part I find is this

Essentially anything we sense is compared against a vast library of information to look for similarities, so that the brain can make sense of it and add it to the reality it presents. Thus life is inherently easier when things fall into neat little boxes, providing a potentially false sense of security. The flip side is that any "unknown" could be a threat and subconsciously we have a habit of treating it as such. Societally this translates into trying to enforce our perspective onto everything irrespective of reality.

Now... I'm infamous for drawing parallels that works in MY mind but utterly fail on the forum, as I'm not physically in-front of you all to explain it in my own inimitable way....

so I will have one crack at this and please.. NO ONE be offended by the madness of the parallel.

Asking a young adult.. or a child.. to determine what they think their gender is, when utterly surrounded by the media that we now have... is possibly impossible.

Transgender, once suggested to a confused hormonal teenager... could be the ultimate escape, because it's easily seen online and easily positioned as the "answer". But it doesn't make it right. Yes.. it might... but it's so likely it wont' to be worth me typing more.

In another life the child who thinks they're in the wrong gendered body.. ....could have, in another era, grown up thinking that being hungry all the time was normal.
or
being cold constantly was normal

or possibly....

they could have grown up in a warring African state and been turned into a child soldier who thought killing with a machete was OK.

(I warned you.... but I'm trying however to keep it right on track with the idea of influence and libraries of "normal").

Clearly those suggested ideas are not to do with feeling transgender... they are simply other examples of kids getting used to something and considering it normal.

OK it's utterly theoretical..... but the principle that a young adult might be trapped in the wrong sex body and get that feeling correct... is such a risk that I'd not support it. Because I think it might change.

If you show a young adult or a child something often enough they might think it's acceptable

Asking that child/young adult to then take a hormone delayer or re-balancer at an age when they're not legally allowed to drink alcohol or drive a car, or have a finance deal on a mobile phone seems.... a tad young to me.

OK.. it NEEDS to be young age to make it work effectively.

But that cant make it right.

[Zak33]

this is typical of the tabloids isn't it?

http://www.mirror.co.uk/news/real-li...in-boy-6348318

“He became really aggressive and angry. He would lash out whenever I made him wear boy’s clothes.

“If you were stood at the top of the stairs he would push you. He would throw a plate at you. He used to get really angry and throw chairs.”

At first Emma didn’t connect the issues.

“I put all his anger down to some #under#lying behavioural issue.

“Even when he was saying things like, ‘I’m a girl,’ or ‘I want my willy to fall off,’ I thought it was a phase.

“He became really aggressive and angry. He would lash out whenever I made him wear boy’s clothes.

“If you were stood at the top of the stairs he would push you. He would throw a plate at you. He used to get really angry and throw chairs.”

At first Emma didn’t connect the issues.

“I put all his anger down to some #under#lying behavioural issue.

“Even when he was saying things like, ‘I’m a girl,’ or ‘I want my willy to fall off,’ I thought it was a phase.

“I was like, ‘You’re a boy, you’re a boy, you’re a boy.’ But then I eventually stopped fighting him over it and he calmed down.”

I cant take bad parenting as news

All I can tell you is that, my boy sometimes decides to do exactly the opposite of what's asked... not eating his greens... he's thrown his plate for that. He's been put in his room and lost treats for it too. I didn't give up. He gets greens to eat. Every single day.

“He became really aggressive and angry. He would lash out whenever I made him wear boy’s clothes.

“I was like, ‘You’re a boy, you’re a boy, you’re a boy.’ But then I eventually stopped fighting him over it and he calmed down.”

More fool you madam. He's 4.. who's the parent here?

When he wont wear school uniform what you gonna do? Give up and get him a private tutor.

Lets assume this little lad doesn't make any more news and next birthday asks for a camo jacket and trousers and a plastic gun.

Is he not transgender any more? Bet THAT won't make the Daily Mirror or Mail

When I was 4 I asked for a dolly for my birthday. My gran was MORTIFIED but my dad allowed it happily. My little lad now has walked about the house with a bra on. Taking it AWAY and reprimanding him for it would be a disaster. Let him take it off when he's bored. If he DAMAGES it... he gets punished. Same as if he drew on a wall.

The kid's 4 years old.

he's not transgender... as Alan Davies might say... he's interested in custard and jumping....

he's a kid.

Don't photograph him kissing his brother in a ballet dress.

Parenting.... that's what's broken. And the media.

[wazzickle]

Got lots to point out and discuss and disagree with but can't really be bothered. Needless to say, everyone who disagrees with me is wrong and dogmatic.

[CAT-THE-FIFTH]

Ok,for some reason I read the title as Transgender Chicken. I was like,WTF!!

[Zak33]

Ok,for some reason I read the title as Transgender Chicken. I was like,WTF!!

[Zak33]

Got lots to point out and discuss and disagree with but can't really be bothered. Needless to say, everyone who disagrees with me is wrong and dogmatic.

yes we are

[TooNice]

Four may be pushing it but while children can be fickle, what do you do if it is something they insist on a month on? A year? five years?

Saying that though, it is not unusual for some girls to be raised in a manner many would associate with boys, resulting in those girls being described as tom-boy-ish.

Yet as far as I know, you do not get nearly as many girls who identifies themselves as tomboys as girls seeking physical alterations (otherwise we'd end up with far more transgenders than we do)

That makes me wonder a couple of things:

1. What is the percentage of boys/men who believe that they should have been born a girl versus girls/women who believe they should have been born a boy.

2. I think that in our society, we are more accepting of tomboys than vice-versa. Does that lead to more boys wishing they are girls just so that they are able to more freely express their preferences?

(I am sure other questions will pop up later)

------------------------------------------

In another life the child who thinks they're in the wrong gendered body.. ....could have, in another era, grown up thinking that being hungry all the time was normal.
or
[...]
Clearly those suggested ideas are not to do with feeling transgender... they are simply other examples of kids getting used to something and considering it normal.

The issue here is that all the examples you have given only work if your entire surrounding is like that. I doubt that the only homeless child in wealthy town is going think that being hungry is "normal" but rather that s/he was born under the wrong star. And we hardly live in an era/society where transgenders are considered "normal" even though there a slow movement for it to be accepted as such. And I won't accept "blame the media" on this one either. It's far, far, from being a dominant news, as far as sort of similar news is concerned, gay rights is still a much bigger one, but I doubt even that is enough to make to turn straight kids gays as some people may fear.

Because I think it might change.

That is what some conservative parents like to think when their child come out of the closet.

[Biscuit]

Four may be pushing it but while children can be fickle, what do you do if it is something they insist on a month on? A year? five years?

If you're attitude originally wasn't to force the child to do anything differently from what they really want to do, then you continue doing that. As a parent your job is to protect the child and give them the best possible chance to achieve their potential through education, not to micro manage their personality.

Saying that though, it is not unusual for some girls to be raised in a manner many would associate with boys, resulting in those girls being described as tom-boy-ish.

That's a phrase my dad said the other day and I hadn't heard it in years. This is a complete conjecture on my part but perhaps the idea of certain things being, 'boy things' and other things being, 'girl things' is becoming a bit old fashioned these days and in reality the lines are blurred.

Honestly, with my GF's little one we don't pigeon hole her but she has just naturally drifted towards more 'girly' things. Sure, she still plays with the train set from time to time (as an example), but the dolls and toy kitchen are far more popular.

The issue here is that all the examples you have given only work if your entire surrounding is like that. I doubt that the only homeless child in wealthy town is going think that being hungry is "normal" but rather that s/he was born under the wrong star. And we hardly live in an era/society where transgenders are considered "normal" even though there a slow movement for it to be accepted as such. And I won't accept "blame the media" on this one either. It's far, far, from being a dominant news, as far as sort of similar news is concerned, gay rights is still a much bigger one, but I doubt even that is enough to make to turn straight kids gays as some people may fear.

Most kids don't actually using traditional media these days though, they go to social media and boy-oh-boy are these topic popular there. The amount of really bad information and extremism masquerading under the banner of 'inclusiveness' should be a genuine cause for concern for the parents.

[wazzickle]

You may not pigeonhole her but society might do

I would say the trend of parents treating their children as their own property, to do with as they wish, is more worrying

[Biscuit]

You may not pigeonhole her but society might do

And that's where protection/education comes into play.

At the end of the day, as long as they're not enforced, there isn't actually anything wrong with choosing a path outlined by traditional gender roles. Even with them being enforced throughout history, they have managed to get us this far.
There is also nothing wrong with stepping outside of the tradition and choosing something different, whether this will result in a happier and more productive society is yet to be seen, quite honestly I have my doubts but would love to be proven wrong.

If the attempted suicide rates and domestic violence issues amongst the LGBT communities are anything to go by then there could be a bit of a rough ride between now and when acceptance becomes truly normal.

[kalniel]

You may not pigeonhole her but society might do

And that's what should be addressed so that the individual has free choice in the matter.

[SeriousSam]

And that's what should be addressed so that the individual has free choice in the matter.

Though it is worth noting that a four year old isn't a fully realised individual... so free choice doesn't strictly apply in the same way.

[kalniel]

Though it is worth noting that a four year old isn't a fully realised individual... so free choice doesn't strictly apply in the same way.

Not at the time, sure. But later it would, and that choice might be impeded if society has pigeonholed them from an early age.

[TooNice]

Most kids don't actually using traditional media these days though, they go to social media and boy-oh-boy are these topic popular there. The amount of really bad information and extremism masquerading under the banner of 'inclusiveness' should be a genuine cause for concern for the parents.

I'd like to see some of those bad information and extremism to make my own mind about them. Right now, I am still very sceptical. Even being bombarded by the idea that feeling attracted by someone of the same gender, or wishing to change once gender is perfectly fine, I doubt that it'll trigger them to actually fall in love with someone of the same gender or believe that they belong to another gender.

There is also nothing wrong with stepping outside of the tradition and choosing something different, whether this will result in a happier and more productive society is yet to be seen, quite honestly I have my doubts but would love to be proven wrong.

The point is this not a "tradition" you choose to be or not to be, but something that you are. Nowadays, at least, we may study differences in left-handers vs right-handers, but we don't consider (AFAIK) whether handedness as something we choose, and whether "choosing" to be left-handed will result in a happier and more productive society. And even if it becomes established that left-handers are statistically more likely to be suicidal, it doesn't mean that forcing them to "be" right-handed is going to change that.. or somehow result in a happier and more productive society.

[Spreadie]

I'm dreading the day my 10 year old comes out as a heterosexual. Oh, the embarrassment!