View Poll Results: Brexit - Eligible/Ineligible, In, Out or Undecided?

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  • Eligible to Vote - Will Vote 'IN' ('Remain')

    51 57.95%
  • Eligible to Vote - Will Vote 'OUT'

    27 30.68%
  • Eligible to Vote - Undecided

    8 9.09%
  • Ineligible to Vote - Would Vote 'IN' ('Remain') If I could

    1 1.14%
  • Ineligible to Vote - Would Vote 'OUT' if I could.

    1 1.14%
  • Ineligible to Vote - Would be undecided right now.

    0 0%
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Thread: Almost There! Hexus EU Referendum Straw Poll #2

  1. #33
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    Re: Almost There! Hexus EU Referendum Straw Poll #2

    Quote Originally Posted by Corky34 View Post
    Sorry to reply to the same thing but curiosity gotten the better of me.

    Having read some of your posts about Windows 10, privacy, and data collection i have to ask did/does the prospect of the EU (specifically the Human Rights Act) reining in the excesses of the proposed Draft Communications Data Bill not play a part in your decision making process, I'm not questioning the decision you've made it's just that I've found myself agreeing with you many times on your views of privacy, and when i, personally, realised the only chance i had of preventing the worse parts of the Snoopers Charter 3.0 was to remain that pretty much made up my mind.

    Like i said I'm not questioning the decision you've made I'd just be interested in the opinion of someone that i think shares similar opinions as mine when it comes to privacy, data collection, and all that stuff.
    Lest we forget Tempora which the UK government developed and was nothing to do with the EU:

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tempora

    The NSA was also involved(probably due to some of their secret efforts in the US) and if Snowden had not said anything the public would be in the dark about the whole thing. Plus we have amongst the highest density(if not the highest density) of cameras in the whole of Europe.

    Our lot have been taking lead in Europe doing these sorts of things.

    You only have to look at UK lobbying on things like this:

    https://www.theguardian.com/commenti...ake-human-life
    http://www.theguardian.com/politics/...egal-challenge

    Extensive UK lobbying scuppered both of them.

    Then we have our lot and a whole number of others wanting this:

    https://www.opendemocracy.net/ournhs...al-sovereignty

    Yonks ago the Tories wanted us to be part of NAFTA:

    http://www.monbiot.com/2000/09/07/vo...al-superstate/

    Years,later they want us to be part of TTIP.

    The UK is painted as this poor soul who is beaten down by the horrible EU. Far from it,our lot have campaigned for,or implemented some pretty rubbish things,with no urging from anybody else.

    Even look at our labour market and laws compared to countries like Germany and France and things like the rise of zero hour contracts - its been successive Labour and Conservative governments who have been quite happy to implement all of this.

    Yet all of a sudden people are 100% trusting of the same lot who were quite happy to do what they wanted with the EU and suddenly think with no EU,they will start caring even more.

    Emm,nope IMHO OFC.

    Then the fact as a country we still be subject to conditions set by multiple bodies like the WTO,UN,etc and the same with any trade deals we sign with anybody.

    People are acting like countries round the world exist in isolation with no external factors to their economics and politics and they can do whatever they want.

    Have people already forgotten the Banana Wars:

    http://www.globalissues.org/article/...nana-trade-war
    https://www.wto.org/english/tratop_e...s_e/ds27_e.htm

    Our "special relationship" with the US meant nothing when they took Europe(including us) to the WTO.

    Guess who won that war and influenced where we buy those Bananas from??
    Last edited by CAT-THE-FIFTH; 21-06-2016 at 08:30 PM.

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  3. #34
    Going Retro!!! Ferral's Avatar
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    Re: Almost There! Hexus EU Referendum Straw Poll #2

    You know a few weeks back I was 100% stay in the EU, but doing my own research on some of the points that have been made by both in & out I have changed my mind.

    Why not, it is new ground for us, with it apparently costing us £350 million per week, that would be money better spent in our own economy and growth, we can make new trade agreements with countries that the EU have stopped us from in the past. Whetyher true or not I did read that not every member pays money towards whatever it is (EU), surely that is not right but if one pays then in all fairness all should, this should be worked out on country population and size etc.

    So either way, I am now decided to vote exit unless something major sways me overnight

  4. #35
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    Re: Almost There! Hexus EU Referendum Straw Poll #2

    Quote Originally Posted by Ferral View Post
    You know a few weeks back I was 100% stay in the EU, but doing my own research on some of the points that have been made by both in & out I have changed my mind.

    Why not, it is new ground for us, with it apparently costing us £350 million per week, that would be money better spent in our own economy and growth, we can make new trade agreements with countries that the EU have stopped us from in the past. Whetyher true or not I did read that not every member pays money towards whatever it is (EU), surely that is not right but if one pays then in all fairness all should, this should be worked out on country population and size etc.

    So either way, I am now decided to vote exit unless something major sways me overnight
    Emm,you do realise that £350 million is actual a pie in the sky figure right?? It excludes the rebate,or the other costs of doing business with Europe. Its like saying you get paid £30000 a year and you get nothing back.

    The Leave campaign have made sure do ignore all costs of having to do business with Europe - you know one country which does business with Europe and is not part of the EU?? Norway.

    There is a cost to do business with Europe and Norway pays the financial costs and also the political costs too - please read it.

    You want to do business with the EU,you will need to implement loads of laws. Plus there is an additional financial cost to it.

    Norway has to do both and has no say in shaping any of those laws.

    Guess what the Norweigan PM said:

    http://www.politico.eu/article/eu-re...ls-brexiteers/


    OSLO — Norway’s prime minister has bad news for U.K. Euroskeptics who hope to copy Oslo’s relationship with the European Union if they get their way in next week’s referendum.

    “They won’t like it,” Erna Solberg told POLITICO.

    The Conservative leader has her own bruising experience of votes on EU membership. Her center-right party was in favor of joining in a 1994 referendum that ended with 52 percent of Norwegians rejecting the bloc, after a similar result in 1972.

    Norway receives access to most of the bloc’s internal market through membership of the European Economic Area. That means goods, services and labor flow freely between Norway and the EU. In return, however, Norway has to adopt a large number of EU laws without having a formal say in how they are shaped. Norway also has to pay about the same amount of money into the EU budget on a per capita basis as the U.K., according to OpenEurope, a think tank that has declared itself neutral in the debate.

    Although the EU influences everything from the health warnings on Norwegian cigarette packs to the fact that Poles have become the biggest minority in the country, there isn’t much appetite for a third ballot on EU membership.

    “That’s because the EU has a lot of problems on [its] own, so it is not very attractive,” the prime minister said in an interview here. Although her party is still in favor of EU membership, polling shows only about 18 percent of the population supports the idea.

    While some in the U.K. see Norway’s looser relationship with the EU as a potential model for a post-Brexit Britain, Oslo sees a long list of drawbacks: losing influence in Brussels, being sidelined at meetings on defense policy, and having to accept EU rules in return for retaining access to the internal market.
    British Prime Minister David Cameron meets Erna Solberg in London on January 15, 2014

    British Prime Minister David Cameron meets Erna Solberg in London on January 15, 2014 | Facundo Arrizabalaga/Getty Images

    “That type of connection is going to be difficult for Britain, because then Brussels will decide without the Brits being able to participate in the decision-making,” said Solberg.

    Norway also has its own reasons for wanting Britain to vote “Remain” in its June 23 referendum on EU membership. Oslo has long relied on London’s free-market zeal to keep the EU’s interventionist instincts in check.

    “It matters to us that we have member states at the table that are market-oriented, focused on less regulation … and the Brits are definitely in that camp,” Vidar Helgesen, Norway’s former EU affairs minister and current climate minister, said in an interview.
    Burnt bottoms

    Norwegian officials often attend expert-level group meetings where European Commission proposals are fleshed out, and its ministers are invited to some EU gatherings when it is relevant for both sides, on energy for instance. But they have no vote.

    Solberg, who is 55 and has been prime minister since 2013, said this arrangement forces Norway to act like “a lobby organization” in Brussels.

    “Sometimes we are good at it, sometimes we are not,” she said.

    Norway’s membership in the European Economic Area does not cover agriculture, fishing, trade, customs, justice and home affairs, but it is part of Europe’s Schengen passport-free travel zone. Its participation in the single market means Norway implements about three-quarters of all EU laws.

    The Financial Times headquarters

    Also On Politico
    Financial Times urges Britain to stay in the EU

    Alex Spence

    Norway’s EU Affairs Minister Elisabeth Aspaker said during a recent visit to Brussels that EU rules are being decided at “high speed … You have to run to make sure you have enough information about things going on here.”

    There is also frustration at the excessive number of rules and regulations emanating from Brussels. The Norwegian parliament adopts five EU laws for every day it is in session, without having much say in how those laws are formed.

    Solberg cited rules on the type of sand to be placed beneath kindergarten slides. “If you think about a country where [it is] 35 degrees, where you can get your bottoms burnt if it’s in the wrong position … then you understand maybe you don’t need to do that — at least in Norway where you can freeze your bottom,” the prime minister said, prompting laughter among her aides.

    The country of 5.2 million people has found it even trickier since the European Parliament gained more powers in 2009.

    “We used to talk to the Commission and we could call up the countries,” said Solberg. “It’s much more difficult to get the European Parliament to understand that Norway, which has decided not to become a member, should have special favors.”
    Russian subs, Polish plumbers

    Norway’s own Remain camp highlighted the risk of such marginalization during the 1994 referendum campaign, but voters decided it was a price worth paying. “The Norwegian people said, ‘OK, we will take the cost.’ I’m not so sure the Brits will feel the same,” Solberg said.

    The cost to Norway of not having a seat at the table is becoming more apparent as regional instability increases. Although it is a member of NATO like Britain, foreign and defense ministers meet far more often in an EU context than as part of NATO. That means Norway is “experiencing in a concrete way [what it means] not to be at the table when the EU is making decisions on policies towards our biggest neighbor, Russia,” said Helgesen.

    “Norway is the one country in the world where the Polish plumber is not a negative word” — Erna Solberg

    Norway shares a 196-km border with Russia and there is a Russian submarine base not far from that border. The prime minister said Oslo doesn’t feel directly threatened, but is worried about Moscow’s “unpredictable” policies.

    “In the old days, in the Cold War, it was a predictable system” she said. “Now they are more unpredictable, that means it becomes more unstable … What we have is a Russia that has become more nationalistic, has increased its military power and is less cooperative in the international field.”

    Proximity to Russia has proved a complication in the refugee crisis, with Moscow allowing about 5,000 migrants to cycle across the Arctic border last year. The route is now mainly closed and some of the mainly Syrian migrants have been deported back to Russia — a tough approach on migration that earned Solberg the nickname “Iron Erna” when she was local government minister from 2001-2005.

    Her Conservatives are in a coalition with the Progress Party, which takes an even tougher stance on immigration. The prime minister said a policy of ensuring migrants don’t cluster in ghettoes means “Norway is the one country in the world where the Polish plumber is not a negative word. It has been a positive word because we need all those Poles and Lithuanians.”

    The political instability to the East, with Russia, and to the West, in the U.K., comes as Norway grapples with challenges to its oil and gas industry. In the long term, the prime minister said, fossil fuels cannot sustain Norway’s economy. Although it is searching for new reserves in the Barents Sea, its mineral wealth is dwindling and the country has already reached “the peak of the oil economy,” she said.

    “We will still have a large oil and gas sector in Norway but [it] will not give the same type of input to our growth in the future,” Solberg said. “We have to look for our growth in other areas.”
    Edit!!

    The vague we will have trade deals - so if doing trade with the EU means you have to implement their laws and pay costs,what does another potential trade partner like China think??

    Oh:

    https://next.ft.com/content/df78cae4...d-efcdc3c11c89

    China’s Xi Jinping urges UK to stay in EU

    President makes clear desire for Britain to remain team player in united Europe
    The US says the same:

    http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2016...uropean-union/

    The other big trade partner outside the EU.

    So,what about India??


    Well,the Indian PM hints the UK is better remaining:

    http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/poli...ions-live.html

    That is THREE large outside EU trade partners which say to remain.
    Last edited by CAT-THE-FIFTH; 21-06-2016 at 10:43 PM.

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  6. #36
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    Re: Almost There! Hexus EU Referendum Straw Poll #2

    Another one from Professor Michael Dougan who talks about the law side of things with regards to trade agreements:
    https://www.facebook.com/Universityo...type=2&theater

    He looks at the claims of both sides and please watch it.

    Edit!!

    Study showing that we would still pay a large percentage of the cost to trade with the EU:

    http://www.theguardian.com/politics/...osts-thinktank

    Remember Norway only has 5 million people and largish oil reserves.

    London has 8.5 million people.

    If you want to trade with the EU you need to stick by their rules - pretty much the same as any other country or bloc of countries.
    Last edited by CAT-THE-FIFTH; 21-06-2016 at 10:48 PM.

  7. #37
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    Re: Almost There! Hexus EU Referendum Straw Poll #2

    Quote Originally Posted by Ferral View Post
    ... Why not, it is new ground for us, with it apparently costing us £350 million per week, that would be money better spent in our own economy and growth ...
    Oh, PLEASE tell me you haven't read that an accepted it as fact? Whilst out total calculated contribution last year worked out to roughly £350 million per week, that discounts both the rebate that Thatcher negotiated for us (apparently she did do something useful during her reign) AND the money the EU pours back into the UK form the same fund (see below for actual figures).

    Quote Originally Posted by Ferral View Post
    ... Whether true or not I did read that not every member pays money towards whatever it is (EU), surely that is not right but if one pays then in all fairness all should ...
    All EU members DO pay into the European budget. However, that money is then redistributed and is spent in those countries, and it is redistributed (as I understand it) on a perceived need basis - rather like a national social security system. So some countries get a net benefit from the EU, and some - like us - make a net contribution.

    Now, the figures. Once you take into account the rebate and the money we receive directly from the EU in subsidies, research funding (incidentally, research is one of the areas where we gain a net benefit from the EU - we get more money back than we put into the research budget) etc., our net contribution to the EU budget comes out to around £165 million a week. Still a lot of money overall, but a smallish proportion of our budget.

    But here's the catch - a reduction of just 0.6% in GDP will actually take every single penny of that £165 million a week out of the government coffers. And a 0.6% reduction is smaller than the reduction in GDP that every economist that doesn't openly support Brexit has estimated will be teh result of leaving the EU. So if we leave, it is extremely likely the government will lose more money than it currently gives to the EU. And even if we don't, that government will be led by the likes of Boris, Gove and Duncan-Smith. What do YOU think they'd spend that extra money on - valuable public services, or tax cuts? Because I know what I think they'd do, and that's pretty much continue how they have so far - screwing everyone they don't think would vote for them anyway.

    So, whatever your reasons for voting Leave, PLEASE don't do it just because you think the government will suddenly spend an extra £350million a week on the NHS.

    As it is, I only really stuck my head in here because I've just come across this bit by Ben Goldacre, and interestingly his first point strongly agrees with my position on the democratic/undemocratic question:


    https://twitter.com/bengoldacre/stat...40448089251840

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  9. #38
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    Re: Almost There! Hexus EU Referendum Straw Poll #2

    Quote Originally Posted by Ferral View Post
    You know a few weeks back I was 100% stay in the EU, but doing my own research on some of the points that have been made by both in & out I have changed my mind.

    Why not, it is new ground for us, with it apparently costing us £350 million per week, that would be money better spent in our own economy and growth, we can make new trade agreements with countries that the EU have stopped us from in the past. Whetyher true or not I did read that not every member pays money towards whatever it is (EU), surely that is not right but if one pays then in all fairness all should, this should be worked out on country population and size etc.

    So either way, I am now decided to vote exit unless something major sways me overnight
    How's this for major. The £350 million per week has been shown to be a load of rubbish. https://fullfact.org/europe/our-eu-m...ee-55-million/

    Making decisions based on Millions per week or billions of pennies per month or quadrillion farthings per month demonstrates a profound misunderstanding of numbers.

    How about making a decision based on the percentage instead
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  10. #39
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    Re: Almost There! Hexus EU Referendum Straw Poll #2

    Quote Originally Posted by Zak33 View Post
    (Serious Sam.. great blog post bud.)

    I'm REMAIN .....

    but you know what?.. I don't care if everyone votes LEAVE and we do.

    I just want it OVER because the retail world is dying on it's ARSE and it's the uncertainty causing it.

    ONCE it's done.. either way.. people can get on with dealing with it.

    right now... utter bloody madness of nil decision making
    Unless it is clear cut either way the houses of parliament will make the "Red Wedding" look like a picnic... irrespective of the result it isn't going to be plain sailing for whomever lurks at number 10.
    If Wisdom is the coordination of "knowledge and experience" and its deliberate use to improve well being then how come "Ignorance is bliss"

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    Re: Almost There! Hexus EU Referendum Straw Poll #2

    Although the thought of the government being able to do what ever they like and probably for the worse, I think I will be brave and vote out.

    I'm curious as to how it will be different.

  12. #41
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    Re: Almost There! Hexus EU Referendum Straw Poll #2

    Quote Originally Posted by Kumagoro View Post
    Although the thought of the government being able to do what ever they like and probably for the worse, I think I will be brave and vote out.

    I'm curious as to how it will be different.
    So you think it's for the worse, yet you're going to vote leave anyway purely out of curiosity?
    I think you should transfer ownership of all your money and assets to me, it's probably for the worse but aren't you curious how it will be different?

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    Re: Almost There! Hexus EU Referendum Straw Poll #2

    There is an incredible amount of dishonesty coming from politicians. One thing I think that we can all agree with is that politicians are bad.

    Voting out means fewer politicians.

  15. #43
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    Re: Almost There! Hexus EU Referendum Straw Poll #2

    Quote Originally Posted by TeePee View Post
    There is an incredible amount of dishonesty coming from politicians. One thing I think that we can all agree with is that politicians are bad.

    Voting out means fewer politicians.
    eh? How? Seems to me only if it results in a coup. In which case there's another good reason not to vote out...

  16. #44
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    Re: Almost There! Hexus EU Referendum Straw Poll #2






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  18. #45
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    Re: Almost There! Hexus EU Referendum Straw Poll #2

    JUNE 23 - Independence day !

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    Re: Almost There! Hexus EU Referendum Straw Poll #2

    The Welsh First Minister said he would be looking to make trade deals with EU separate from the UK if it leaves the EU:

    http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politic...endum-36591335

    Wales could make its own agreements with the EU if there is a Leave vote in Thursday's referendum, First Minister Carwyn Jones has suggested.

    Mr Jones cited EU member states with territories outside the union, such as Greenland and the Canary Islands.

    He told BBC Wales he did not trust the Leave campaign's leaders to negotiate with Brussels on Wales' behalf.

    But UKIP Wales leader Nathan Gill said: "Britain joined the EU together and will leave the EU together."

    Mr Jones told BBC Wales: "There's no reason why the EU in the future can't look at having a way of dealing with nations that are not member states and looking at getting agreements with them, why not?"

    "If it's possible to do it where a country is a member state, why not if a country isn't a member state," he asked.

    Mr Jones said: "If there is a Leave vote on Friday we have to take steps to talk to the EU ourselves in Wales.

    "I'm not going to rely on that lot in the Brexit campaign to represent Wales in Brussels, or at all.

    "So it's hugely important that we get the best deal for Wales whatever happens."
    'Fighting Whitehall for years'

    Mr Jones argued that there were no guarantees that aid Wales received from the EU would be matched by UK ministers after a Brexit.

    "For years we've been fighting Whitehall for a fair-funding settlement," he said.

    Mr Jones was appearing next to Leanne Wood, the Plaid Cymru leader, to call for a Remain vote.

    She said: "We are standing here united together, asking people to trust us on this question we because we believe Remain is in the best interests of Wales."

    Responded to Mr Jones's comments, Mr Gill said: "Britain joined the EU together and we will leave the EU together.

    "And it is Westminster that will argue and fight for the best deal for us.

    "But they will fight for the will of the British people and what we've said.

    "The links will be retained because obviously Europe wants to trade with the whole of Britain."
    Makes me wonder what Scotland and Northern Ireland would do??

    Anybody has information from the Leave camp,on what they would do if other regions of the UK are pro-remain or want to negotiate their own deals with the EU??

    I tried looking for some official info - not found any.
    Last edited by CAT-THE-FIFTH; 22-06-2016 at 02:07 AM.

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    Re: Almost There! Hexus EU Referendum Straw Poll #2

    Quote Originally Posted by Corky34 View Post
    I'm not going to change your mind as at this stage i think most people have already decided one way or the other, but IIRC one of the things in the Conservative manifesto was that they wanted to scrap the Human Rights Act, I've not looked into how that ties into the ECtHR or even if it has any relation to it, just thought it worth mentioning.

    .....
    That's true, but only part of the manifesto commitment.

    What you missed was .... "and replace it with a British Bill of Rights".

    Why? As the manifesto said, to break the link with the ECtHR and return the final jurisdiction to the UK Supreme Court. Why? Issues like the ECtHR telling us what prisoners voting rignts should be, or that we can't deport terrorists or serious criminals, regardless of the threat they pose here.

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    Re: Almost There! Hexus EU Referendum Straw Poll #2

    Quote Originally Posted by CAT-THE-FIFTH View Post
    The Welsh First Minister said he would be looking to make trade deals with EU separate from the UK if it leaves the EU.

    ....

    Makes me wonder what Scotland and Northern Island would do??
    Nothing, unless the EU were lying with what they told Scotland last time they tried for independence, which was that until Scotland IS independent, and a nation state in its own right, they won't even talk to it.

    Of course, if Scotland, or Wales, decide to leave the UK, they can seek to make deals.

    If the people of Wales want indepedence from the UK, or from what might end up being England with no UK, then I guess that's their right.

    In the meantime, he's blowing smoke up your you-know-what.

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