Re: EU and Democracy - Why the EU is classed as undemocratic
Quote:
Originally Posted by
spacein_vader
But he's not comparing apples with apples. His UK example is that if 100% of the electorate (all UK citizens with the right to vote,) don't want something it won't happen. He then compares that to the EU saying that if all UK citizens vote against something it can happen. A fair comparison would be if the entire electorate (eg. every EU citizen entitled to vote,) was against something.
We wouldn't call the UK undemocratic if the whole of (for example,) Oxfordshire voted against something and it was still passed.
That reference (comparing Oxfordshire) only works if we're a region in a united states of Europe, not independent nations as part of a collective.
But that's the way the EU is/is headed, and why the EU has ignored numerous national referendums. Which again, is part of the reason people want to vote out.
Lots of people don't want to be part of a federal EU.
Re: EU and Democracy - Why the EU is classed as undemocratic
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Andy3536
That reference (comparing Oxfordshire) only works if we're a region in a united states of Europe, not independent nations as part of a collective.
But that's the way the EU is/is headed, and why the EU has ignored numerous national referendums. Which again, is part of the reason people want to vote out.
Lots of people don't want to be part of a federal EU.
But that's a separate point to make. Surely it can only be less democratic in this example if it treats the electorate (whoever constitutes it,) differently. That people wish we weren't a part of that electorate is a separate debate.
Re: EU and Democracy - Why the EU is classed as undemocratic
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Galant
You guys do realise no one forced you to come in and read the thread right? You're quite free to not click any links you find or, if you do click, not to comment.
I raised a separate thread apart from the other threads so as not to redirect the flows of those threads or clog them. I did so on a specific subject with a particular article in mind so that those who might want to engage in the subject or read the article could do so. It was one post. You were and are quite free to ignore it or to provide a rebuttal.
I don't at all understand the need to just come into the thread, without reading the article in question and moan or drag the thread off topic.
Sorry but just because you posted this thread does not mean you own this section of the interwebs and have the sole right to police it. I'm not going to read your link (I've read enough pro-brexit stuff and even watched brexit: the movie) but that should not disqualify me from being able to talk specifically about your subject title and provide rebuttals.
Re: EU and Democracy - Why the EU is classed as undemocratic
The EU is indeed undemocratic, the question is (or should be) whether it's less or more undemocratic than the UK, and by all reasonable standards of discussion, logic and evidence, the UK is more undemocratic.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=USTypBKEd8Y
Re: EU and Democracy - Why the EU is classed as undemocratic
A lot of people seem to have a weird, skewed idea of what the EU is. It's not a government that rides roughshod over its' member states, with Angela Merkel running the show and every country required to send MEPuppets, with her deciding that the UK must pay for french farmers; it's a trading block that seeks to harmonize trade by virtue of things like free movement of eu nationals and standardization of regulations. It is thoroughly democratic in that each member state has a large say in what goes on. Any agreements we make are bilateral, not handed down to us.
Re: EU and Democracy - Why the EU is classed as undemocratic
Quote:
Originally Posted by
CAT-THE-FIFTH
Why are you making another thread about this - there are two threads on the referendum already with the same kind of arguments.
Perhaps because this thread is tightly targeted on one specific piece of argument, not "how will you vote". That is, it's not "another thread about this".
Re: EU and Democracy - Why the EU is classed as undemocratic
Quote:
Originally Posted by
wazzickle
Sorry but just because you posted this thread does not mean you own this section of the interwebs and have the sole right to police it. I'm not going to read your link (I've read enough pro-brexit stuff and even watched brexit: the movie) but that should not disqualify me from being able to talk specifically about your subject title and provide rebuttals.
The title is not the definition of a thread subject, any more than a newspaper headline defines the content of a two-page spread. The subject here is specifically the arguments in that article.
Re: EU and Democracy - Why the EU is classed as undemocratic
Quote:
Originally Posted by
CAT-THE-FIFTH
Why are you making another thread about this - there are two threads on the referendum already with the same kind of arguments.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Phage
I have no idea. It is a classic to post a link to approx 1tb of text than ask people to argue with it whilst ignoring the 1tb links they posted.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
directhex
It's called the "Gish Gallop"
Looks like we will need to disagree then! ;)
Re: EU and Democracy - Why the EU is classed as undemocratic
Yes, we most certainly will, because this thread is not Gish Gallop, and was posted by a good, long term member quoting a piece of argument made by an Oxford professor, and asking for it to be refuted.
Yet it has been treated with contempt, insultingly disparaged and taken off-topic before it even got started.
For a serious subject, and a serious request from a long-standing member, the way this thread has been treated is disgraceful.
Re: EU and Democracy - Why the EU is classed as undemocratic
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Saracen
Yes, we most certainly will, because this thread is not Gish Gallop, and was posted by a good, long term member quoting a piece of argument made by an Oxford professor, and asking for it to be refuted.
Yet it has been treated with contempt, insultingly disparaged and taken off-topic before it even got started.
For a serious subject, and a serious request from a long-standing member, the way this thread has been treated is disgraceful.
And maybe a long standing member should not resort to veiled comments like this:
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Galant
Not with that level of comprehension, no.
That is after somebody bothered to read it and give his impression about it. Hence why the others commented on it as a Gish Gallop,especially when people have countered with information to the OP to say otherwise. Remember,I didn't describe it as such that would be Directhex.
;)
Edit!!
To add to that:
Quote:
EU and Democracy - Why the EU is classed as undemocratic
That is the title of this thread,which OFC means people will counter that assertion as they see fit.
However,that is not the article description in the link(which I did read),its this:
Quote:
Why Britons Should Vote to Leave the European Union
by Dominic Burbidge
within Foreign Affairs
But either way in 7 hrs its all moot,and good riddance to this whole referendum. Two referendums in under two years,I think most people are referendum'd(yes its a made up word) out.
Re: EU and Democracy - Why the EU is classed as undemocratic
remaining in the EU means more democracy. the UK out of the EU is less democracy. it's really as simple as that. the unelected house of lords can veto UK laws, which isn't very democratic, whilst all EU laws and legislation need to be passed by elected MEP's. it doesn't take dozens of paragraphs to explain this
Re: EU and Democracy - Why the EU is classed as undemocratic
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Galant
He does this way because he's highlighting the reality that as an individual nation democracy is removed in the EU. It removes the ability of an individual nation to govern itself sovereignly, democratically, within itself.
And on that one specific point he's correct, if we take sovereignty to mean the power to govern oneself then yes by becoming part of a bigger community that's what you've done, but, and hears the important thing (IMO), no man's an island, unless you were literally living on island all alone you've already given up the power to govern yourself, to make your own choices.
Sovereignty is the power to govern, to govern is to make choices, to make choices you need to be in control, not a single person on this plant has 100% control.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Galant
This indicates a transfer of power to the EU because one ends up talking about the EU and EU citizens as a single entity, an identity to itself.
He then looks to see if that is exactly true. If it's a move across to have the same democratic power as Europe or Europeans as with the individual nation, and he finds that it is not, it is different. So democracy is lost at the level of the individual nation and is not regained at the EU 'state' level.
To some extent it is, to some extent democracy is lost when a nation joins the EU, but that's no different than the democracy that's lost from councils becoming part of England, or the democracy that's lost from the four regions of the British isle coming together to form the UK, that's what becoming part of a community means, it means ceding *some* of the control you had over your own affairs to the community in the hope that as a community you can do things that no one individual could do on their own.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Andy3536
But that's the way the EU is/is headed, and why the EU has ignored numerous national referendums. Which again, is part of the reason people want to vote out.
Not having looked into the finer details of what every referendum the EU has ignored I'd like to know the specific referendum you (and others) are referring to when they make this claim, i have the feeling they only ignored those referendum because the nation either ceded control over the issue that the referendum was about to the EU already so in effect the nation held a referendum over something they had no control over, or they ignored a referendum because it was clear there was wide spread opposition so they scraped the proposal that the referendum was about.
Like i said I'd like to investigate the specifics as maybe my impressions wrong, it would help if you could expand on what numerous national referendums the EU has ignored though. :)
Re: EU and Democracy - Why the EU is classed as undemocratic
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Saracen
The title is not the definition of a thread subject, any more than a newspaper headline defines the content of a two-page spread. The subject here is specifically the arguments in that article.
Is that hexus.net policy, or is that what you think the internet is?
So you're saying I'm not allowed to post my own links that refute the presumed content of his link?
Re: EU and Democracy - Why the EU is classed as undemocratic
Quote:
Originally Posted by
wazzickle
Is that hexus.net policy, or is that what you think the internet is?
So you're saying I'm not allowed to post my own links that refute the presumed content of his link?
I very much doubt Saracen is saying that you can't post links, more that he is questioning the common sense of doing so when not cognisant of all the pertinent information.
Re: EU and Democracy - Why the EU is classed as undemocratic
Quote:
Originally Posted by
CAT-THE-FIFTH
And maybe a long standing member should not resort to veiled comments like this:
That is after somebody bothered to read it and give his impression about it.
After my next post I'm not going to bother continuing to respond here since it's evident to me few people are actually interested in the article, its arguments, and responding to it, and of course the day has come and is quickly passing.
I will just say that I apologised for that comment. I don't know if Corky saw it, I missed adding the quote into the post. I was frustrated, I still am, I apologise.
Re: EU and Democracy - Why the EU is classed as undemocratic
Quote:
Originally Posted by
wazzickle
The EU is indeed undemocratic, the question is (or should be) whether it's less or more undemocratic than the UK, and by all reasonable standards of discussion, logic and evidence, the UK is more undemocratic.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=USTypBKEd8Y
I've seen this video and whilst this guy evidently knows the subject and presents some good food for though, on the central subject of sovereignty and democracy he actually says very little. He more or less dismissed the problem by stating the UK is still classed as sovereign, and because there are votes and elections it therefore equates to democracy. However, as the OP essay discusses, and as others have brought up, the 'devil is in the details'. The ability to vote does not a democracy make, certainly not a worthwhile democracy. So I find this video doesn't really do anything to address those issues which are, to me, and to many others, the absolute foundational issue of this referendum.