On this day...

For all the stress and headaches and arguments that have come from the EU referendum, as I look at news feeds and see people walking around with stickers on showing that they've voted, I can't help but take note that we're seeing history made this day. One day. One vote per person (we hope!), and afterwards the UK's path (and Gibraltar's!) is set for years to come, maybe forever.

We've all seen this historical settings in documentaries and even historical fiction, we've seen the archive footage of debates and elections and decisions gone by, but we today we're seeing history made. (And indeed there are plenty still around for whom this is their second spin at the wheel).

This nation, this generation, is helping to make British and European history.

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Also the Steam Summer Sale is due to start today. A monumental day indeed.

On a more serious note, historic or not I just want it to be over!

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Originally Posted by Bagnaj97

Also the Steam Summer Sale is due to start today. A monumental day indeed.

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Made me giggle in the office, 10 points for you!

It's been a horrible and divisive campaign, with endless lies spouted on both sides. I dislike that the government send me a letter telling me to vote 'in' and expect it probably had the opposite effect for many people. I dislike the millions of pound figures being bandied around, although enjoyed the BBC ripping apart every claimed figure. I disliked the more extreme political sides turning things a bit too dark against migrants in general.

It's not a big day for me as I postal voted weeks ago. I'm hoping for the (personal) right decision otherwise we may have to move to Scotland, hope they get independence then rejoin the EU.

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Originally Posted by jimbouk

I'm hoping for the (personal) right decision otherwise we may have to move to Scotland, hope they get independence then rejoin the EU.

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Damn tempting isn't it... I'm voting tonight!

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Originally Posted by cheesemp

Damn tempting isn't it...

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My wife's from Northumberland and was all for trying to persuade the Scots to take Northumberland with them if they voted out of the UK ;)

I know there's a thread of "history being made" running throughout the whole thing, but let's be honest; "history" is being made every day. Today might end up being marked as a significant inflection point in UK history, or the whole thing might be a damp squib - we won't actually know until it's over ('cause, y'know, it's history ;) ).

On the commute today (a rare occasion of me not being on bike) I noticed an article in someone's paper headlined something along the lines of "Where does out trust in politics go from here?", and I think perhaps that's going to be the biggest outcome of the whole debacle. We now know exactly what our politicians think of their electorate, and it's not particularly complimentary. The questions is what, if anything, we can do about it? And will 2020 be far enough away that everyone forgets how we've been treated over the last few weeks?

Steamin' or Stexit?

Five years ago today i became a father to twin girls :mrgreen:

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Originally Posted by hb904460

Five years ago today i became a father to twin girls :mrgreen:

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Now that's some good news! Enjoy the birthday party!

How's the weather where you are? Here's Gib via the Beeb

The big question is "What news is being hidden today"

So far I've spotted the VW settlement for the emissions scandal has mysteriously been leaked to the press today, rather than Monday when it's actually final

Anything else?

In the end whoever wins,I hope both sides can get past their differences and we stand united as a country again.

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Originally Posted by Galant

How's the weather where you are?

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Rain, and I mean biblical stuff where I was driving and could hardly see past the end of the bonnet and had to slow to a crawl. When it let up, it was more like motorboating than driving.

Still I got to the voting station, and the chip shop afterwards, so happy times :D

After making my order at the chip shop I realised my ~90kg frame was the slimmest there by far, made me nervous of having ordered a pie! A day for contemplation, political and personal...

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Originally Posted by Bagnaj97

Also the Steam Summer Sale is due to start today. A monumental day indeed.

On a more serious note, historic or not I just want it to be over!

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Independence Day: Resurgence too!!

:surprised:

oh God, what have they done... I would say we, but I didn't vote to self-harm our nation out of xenophobic spite and blind foolishness

Are Scotland going to start moaning about 'bloody foreigners' flooding the place if they do get independence and half of England tries to move there?

On a personal note, I really hope they do get independence.

I've just seen an entire nation shooting itself in head. Dear lord, what a shower of stupid and venal nationalistic lies has done.

Edinburgh looks nice

Well one way of looking at it historically is:- we got through two plagues and this is nothing in comparison. ;)

I am looking forward to a new hospital every week though.

Oh, what? They're all distancing themselves from it?

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Originally Posted by Phage

I've just seen an entire nation shooting itself in head. Dear lord, what a shower of stupid and venal nationalistic lies has done.

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How about the US presidential election - that might trump it.
Hilary or Trump?

You mean shoot myself or jump off a cliff?

On twitter I've just seen a video of a bloke in Manchester saying he voted Leave because he didn't really think it'd happen, and now he's really worried.

so .. yeah.

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Originally Posted by scaryjim

On twitter I've just seen a video of a bloke in Manchester saying he voted Leave because he didn't really think it'd happen, and now he's really worried.

so .. yeah.

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That saddens me so much I can't express it.

Does he also take that approach with other things? Say by running red lights, putting electric sockets in his bathroom and poking a sleeping bear with a stick?

Apparently there's been another one saying the same thing elsewhere. Wonder how many people thought Leave was a safe protest vote with no real chance of winning...

can you post a link?

Edit: Found it

http://www.huffingtonpost.co.uk/entr...b08d2c5638ee29

Incredible. I wonder how many other protestors there are who have done similar but are keeping quiet.

Finding it sad that people are saying the older generation's vote shouldn't count and that the future belongs to the young. Certainly the older generation could have chosen to vote irresponsibly and selfishly, but isn't it also possible that they voted as responsibly as they could and sought to secure the best future possible for their children and grandchildren?

Finding it quite dark that all sorts of camps are suggesting the votes of different types of people shouldn't count. :(

Ugh, I had retweeted it but the original tweet has been deleted, frustratingly. Will see if I can find the clip again.

Ahha, google works for me: http://metro.co.uk/2016/06/24/man-wh...award-5964450/

On this day, we voted for change , we showed the middle finger to our incompetent Prime minister and government and the blood-suckers in the EU council. On this day, we see hope that our country can be great again.

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Originally Posted by OilSheikh

On this day, we voted for change , we showed the middle finger to our incompetent Prime minister and government and the blood-suckers in the EU council. On this day, we see hope that our country can be great again.

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ah blind hope. What a fickle mistress to pursue. Just like a certain person entered the white house trumpeting, only to find hope doesn't necessarily deliver in reality. Hope? Hope gets you nowhere. Hope clings to untruths and deception if it wants to hear them because it hopes for something better than reality offers. Hope holds out clutching at straws when all the evidence states it will not work. Hope whips a man up in a frenzy should he let it in anticipation of a dream that he desires to be realised, and so he might hope, and weary himself in his longing. But hope without basis, without evidence to support it is worthless. A pipe dream. Anyone who voted in the face of the evidence and FACTS on the basis of hope alone has done great harm to our country today. Like the man who puts his house on red and hopes it will come up - that is the gambling action that has taken place with our country.

Er.. I am hot hoping for hope. I literally see hope.

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Originally Posted by OilSheikh

Er.. I am hot hoping for hope. I literally see hope.

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You must be seeing something quantifiable.

Please share, a lot of us are feeling very down today and could do with a glimmer of hope?

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Originally Posted by Biscuit

You must be seeing something quantifiable.

Please share, a lot of us are feeling very down today and could do with a glimmer of substantiated hope?

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corrected that for you.

I'm not bothered either way really its all been blown out of proportion by the press. Britain will continue trading immigration legal and illegal will continue your day to day routine will not be altered. The elite 0.5% Bankers Rothchilds ECB Goldman Sach Fed Reserve will still run things.

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Originally Posted by ik9000

ah blind hope. What a fickle mistress to pursue. Just like a certain person entered the white house trumpeting, only to find hope doesn't necessarily deliver in reality. Hope? Hope gets you nowhere. Hope clings to untruths and deception if it wants to hear them because it hopes for something better than reality offers. Hope holds out clutching at straws when all the evidence states it will not work. Hope whips a man up in a frenzy should he let it in anticipation of a dream that he desires to be realised, and so he might hope, and weary himself in his longing. But hope without basis, without evidence to support it is worthless. A pipe dream. Anyone who voted in the face of the evidence and FACTS on the basis of hope alone has done great harm to our country today. Like the man who puts his house on red and hopes it will come up - that is the gambling action that has taken place with our country.

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That is the most brilliant bloody and elegant response. You are a poet and a damn good one.

And the money being taken out of the economy will be paid from the pockets of those who are least able to afford it, just like it was in the 08 recession.

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Originally Posted by rob4001

I'm not bothered either way really its all been blown out of proportion by the press. Britain will continue trading immigration legal and illegal will continue your day to day routine will not be altered. The elite 0.5% Bankers Rothchilds ECB Goldman Sach Fed Reserve will still run things.

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Except for people who've lost millions of pounds from their pension funds, those that will be losing the jobs within the European parliment and no one, at all has any idea when this will be resolved.

One thing is certain, whatever trade deal we get with Europe, it'll be worse than what we currently have. It'll either cost more, wilk have higher tarrifs or will come attached with conditions such as retaining open borders so ultimately our take back of control will be limited to being able to walk off in a huff and lose all trading options

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Originally Posted by Galant

Finding it sad that people are saying the older generation's vote shouldn't count and that the future belongs to the young. Certainly the older generation could have chosen to vote irresponsibly and selfishly, but isn't it also possible that they voted as responsibly as they could and sought to secure the best future possible for their children and grandchildren?

Finding it quite dark that all sorts of camps are suggesting the votes of different types of people shouldn't count. :(

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I would suggest that the older generation are voting *entirely* for the future of their children and grandchildren, because that is what parents do. It is certainly what I did. The moment you have kids you become a child support system above all else. I think that is why I took the vote so seriously, I\'m sure in my younger days I would have read & viewed about 10% of what I actually sat through.

Interesting to note that pensioners were most likely to vote exit, and I would expect them to know full well that doing so would hit their pension quite hard. So really, that would have to be about as un-selfish as they could get. Perhaps experience is telling them something instead?

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Originally Posted by DanceswithUnix

I would suggest that the older generation are voting *entirely* for the future of their children and grandchildren, because that is what parents do. It is certainly what I did. The moment you have kids you become a child support system above all else. I think that is why I took the vote so seriously, I'm sure in my younger days I would have read & viewed about 10% of what I actually sat through.

Interesting to note that pensioners were most likely to vote exit, and I would expect them to know full well that doing so would hit their pension quite hard. So really, that would have to be about as un-selfish as they could get. Perhaps experience is telling them something instead?

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You are assuming people generally have a good grasp of economics in general though. Remember the 1930s had the world recovering from the depression,1940s had war,1950s had a depressed economy and rationing due to the previous war,the 60s was more optimistic but people still were not rich,but by the early 70s we had slid back into recession again.

Edit!!


OTH,I might being unfair though.

It does make me wonder though,whether the general trend of seeing greater wealth accumulation in the hands of certain people and certain areas of the country,is what is not helping and successive governments have not done enough to try and evenly distribute wealth accross the country.

So on the surface the macro-economics look good but on a local level things are not so rosy.

It's impossible to say why any individual voted, but to make sweeping claims about a whole generation and attribute selfishness to them just because they didn't vote the way you think was right, is itself selfish and ugly.

What about the people who didn't vote?
What about the middle aged voters? The younger ones who voted leave?

Just picking on the older generation because they've been identified as the biggest demographic voting leave, and assuming they were being selfish is plain ugly. They will have been a large part of those who voted in the last referendum, too, and have seen how things played out. If they opted in, don't they have a right to opt out now. And good grief, might they even have reason to to want to do so?

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Originally Posted by Galant

It's impossible to say why any individual voted, but to make sweeping claims about a whole generation and attribute selfishness to them just because they didn't vote the way you think was right, is itself selfish and ugly.

What about the people who didn't vote?
What about the middle aged voters? The younger ones who voted leave?

Just picking on the older generation because they've been identified as the biggest demographic voting leave, and assuming they were being selfish is plain ugly. They will have been a large part of those who voted in the last referendum, too, and have seen how things played out. If they opted in, don't they have a right to opt out now. And good grief, might they even have reason to to want to do so?

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But you have also not seemed to not have realise over the last decade more and more younger people have been critical of the "baby boomer" generation saying they are the ones who are supporting their final salary pensions,healthcare,etc and that they will never hope to see that level themselves and they have to work longer and longer. Sadly,if the maths don't work out for this decision and it is younger folk who do have to take more of the burden then it is only going to get worse.

People like my parents at times,they paid their taxes and worked hard,so they are entitled to get what they paid for anyway. So its the politicians not getting their sums right(yet again) which needs to be questioned.

The whole point,is it is also disgenuous on your part to say everybody who voted remain is blaiming older people,especially when some of us actually have older family members too which we care for - not all of us care much for blaming older folk since I suspect when we get old,the younger lot will do the same to us.

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Originally Posted by CAT-THE-FIFTH

But you have also not seemed to not have realise over the last decade more and more younger people have been critical of the "baby boomer" generation saying they are the ones who are supporting their final salary pensions,healthcare,etc and that they will never hope to see that level themselves and they have to work longer and longer. Sadly,if the maths don't work out for this decision and it is younger folk who do have to take more of the burden then it is only going to get worse.

People like my parents at times,they paid their taxes and worked hard,so they are entitled to get what they paid for anyway. So its the politicians not getting their sums right(yet again) which needs to be questioned.

The whole point,is it is also disgenuous on your part to say everybody who voted remain is blaiming older people,especially when some of us actually have older family members too which we care for - not all of us care much for blaming older folk since I suspect when we get old,the younger lot will do the same to us.

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I didn't once say everyone who voted remain is saying that. I was commenting on the fact that many are, or are at least assenting to the idea.

As it stands it is better for the government to do nothing about the health of the nation because the additional NHS cost is far outweighed by the reduction in pension payments. Making sums "add up" can lead to some rather unsightly outcomes...

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Originally Posted by Galant

I didn't once say everyone who voted remain is saying that. I was commenting on the fact that many are, or are at least assenting to the idea.

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I think this is something that has been bumbling under in more and more younger people in the last decade,so I just worry at times. You hear it more and more. I don't want a backlash against older folk in the next few years due to this,and this will be entirely down to how our politicians handle the situation.

Also bear in mind the older generation remember the 1973 vote and it was for a trade agreement primarily on coal, steel etc and was certainly never a vote on political union. They have wanted a say for years, and finally were given the opportunity to speak their mind in a formal vote. This process should have been had decades ago when the political aspects started creeping in to subsequent treaties - and it would have been far less destructive at that time.

Would Maastricht have been signed by the UK if we'd had a referendum? Possibly not. Certainly Blair would have struggled in 2003 with the revised EU constitution, and almost certainly not Brown subsequently signing the Lisbon treaty in 2007 - much to the fury and chagrin of many including a certain Mr Cameron. Those latter two treaties did much to permit the immigration that many people now so vehemently oppose, and those changes would have been vetoed by just one member state voting against them. Had all member states not unanimously signed up to them previously things could look very different today. Ireland had a referendum as, I think, did a few other countries. We'll never know, and life is always full of 'what-ifs' but there is a good case for saying that a referendum by Blair, if not Major, giving people a say in the matter, rather than steam-rollering the country onto a course many felt they did not opt for, could have avoided this chaos now.

Furthermore it is not sufficient to say that "people elected the successive governments so they can't complain." A number of election pledges were made promising to let people have a say - I distinctly remember Labour promising that any further treaty changes/dissolution of UK power to Brussels, would require a referendum. Then I remember after they were elected, those same Labour politicians saying they weren't going to let the people of the UK have a say.

No, this vote has been a long time coming, too long for many, and I am not at all surprised that older voters acted how they did. It was in many senses a vote of "stop ignoring your constituents and listen to their views" as much as anything else.