Britain is doomed!! (How is that going to affect you)

[kalniel]

Why Switzerland? I can't say they'd be anywhere near the top of my list.

Lots of Pharma and Bioinformatics in CH, great education system, good representation for local people (once you qualify), good scenery, good access to goods from neighbouring countries.

[scaryjim]

... Jobs are being filled with foreigners, many of who send a percentage of their earning home so that the money just leaves the UK. Our deficit just keeps getting bigger and more austerity is feared....all while NHS queues get longer, housing becomes more and more unaffordable and wages are not keeping up with inflation. ...

OK ... if these people are sending more money home than they're spending on living in the UK, they must be very close to paying the higher rate of income tax! And if they're earning that much, they're already contributing greatly to the economy through tax and NI, as well as the money they put into the local economy through shopping, paying for housing, taxation on utilities .... you can probably get my point.

That's one really galling thing for me - there's been this totally duplicitous stand in the Leave campaign that's claimed that EU immigrants both steal our jobs, AND sponge off the state. And that makes no sense. If they steal our jobs then they're paying to the system that provides all those public services. if they're just here to sponge, why aren't British people taking all the jobs they're not stealing? if they're stealing jobs and still need state benefits to live (according to our own government's assessment), then presumably any British worker with that job would also be sponging off the state at the same time - in which case the problem is with our society, not the immigrant worker.

All those financial and economic concerns are real, but they're not caused by the EU or immigrant workers. They're caused by successive governments who've sought to cut services rather than increase taxes; who've tried to grow the economy by minimizing loss rather than stimulating expansion. In the mean time, the areas that HAVE been significantly regenerated - including most of the North East - have managed that through regional development funding directly from the EU; required because the Westminster government doesn't care about Sunderland, or Cornwall, or pretty much anywhere outside of London, as far as development is concerned. And I don't like the chances of that money being found in the public purse once we leave the EU.

[TheAnimus]

And longer term I'll probably move at least to Scotland, presuming they will go independent. Switzerland and Japan are other possibles.

They will be utterly screwed with their current spending plans.

The thing that amazes me, as I've said before Wales isn't a country and it's full of below average intelligence, but wow. They voted against the 2bn they had last year. Who do they think their friends really are! Is this some form of Cupid's Disease that is spread from sheep?

[shaithis]

OK ... if these people are sending more money home than they're spending on living in the UK, they must be very close to paying the higher rate of income tax! And if they're earning that much, they're already contributing greatly to the economy through tax and NI, as well as the money they put into the local economy through shopping, paying for housing, taxation on utilities .... you can probably get my point.

Not necessarily. Look at parts of London where you can find houses filled with different people, all living essentially in poverty while sending as much as they can home. It's an extreme example but it's what people see in the news.

That's one really galling thing for me - there's been this totally duplicitous stand in the Leave campaign that's claimed that EU immigrants both steal our jobs, AND sponge off the state. And that makes no sense.

Some are sponging and some are taking jobs....it's not all or nothing. People feel that the little erosions have built up to the point where enough is enough.

If they steal our jobs then they're paying to the system that provides all those public services.

Why would we want foreigners in UK jobs when we have 1.7m people unemployed?

if they're just here to sponge, why aren't British people taking all the jobs they're not stealing?

Again, that's not a valid argument as your painting millions of people with the same brush.

if they're stealing jobs and still need state benefits to live (according to our own government's assessment), then presumably any British worker with that job would also be sponging off the state at the same time - in which case the problem is with our society, not the immigrant worker.

Whatever the root of the problem, huge benefit payments, large unemployment and rip-off UK prices have forced people to vote for change. If the root of the problem is actually known, I would like to have heard one of the experts explain it during the brexit campaigns.......

All those financial and economic concerns are real, but they're not caused by the EU or immigrant workers. They're caused by successive governments who've sought to cut services rather than increase taxes; who've tried to grow the economy by minimizing loss rather than stimulating expansion. In the mean time, the areas that HAVE been significantly regenerated - including most of the North East - have managed that through regional development funding directly from the EU; required because the Westminster government doesn't care about Sunderland, or Cornwall, or pretty much anywhere outside of London, as far as development is concerned. And I don't like the chances of that money being found in the public purse once we leave the EU.

Possibly, even probably but we didn't get a referendum on changing that, we got one on leaving the EU instead....

[directhex]

rip-off UK prices

You adorable cupcake, you.

Get ready for *fun* prices.

[Jowsey]

And there in itself is part of the problem. Maintaining the status quo does nothing to encourage new generations to graft. Nothing meaningful has been done over the last 10 years to get those idle doleys back into work and the unemployment figure has bene steadily rising. Jobs are being filled with foreigners, many of who send a percentage of their earning home so that the money just leaves the UK. Our deficit just keeps getting bigger and more austerity is feared....all while NHS queues get longer, housing becomes more and more unaffordable and wages are not keeping up with inflation.

People can call it racism and bigotry but I think it's mainly self-preservation. Protect what we still have, while we have a chance to......or make the EU have a proper vision for the future that we can ALL see ourself being in happily.

While I dont disagree that we've allowed a generation become bone idle I think a much larger blame lies with the benefit culture of the UK. You could do nothing and get by, thats relatively attractive! Escpicially if your parents weren't employed. There is still plenty of people that are taught that things aren't gifted and you have to work (see the above 18 year old studying and working window cleaner!) and I think its a lazy excuse to say if they weren't here our children would work harder. Surely it's the inverse, the young are lazy and left a void in the job market so other people filled it? That's how supply and demand works. Demand first.

Can you hand on heart honestly say you'd employ a lazy brit over a keen Latvian? I'm sure no one with a mind for business would.

Regarding the money being sent home, that's true. But we need to look bigger than the UK and consider a prospurous Europe. It stung that the money wasnt being spent in the UK but it's being spent in Latvia, where it probably has a bigger impact. Regardless, we should really be discussing companies storing and transfer funds off shore if you want to discuss funds moving out of the UK.

Threw the reel out to my regional boss (the one who my money comes from but doesn't really tell me what to do) with a bit of a fishing message and got the reply "It's a game changer"

Man, that's not what you want to hear

[kalniel]

Why would we want foreigners in UK jobs when we have 1.7m people unemployed?

I'd like to think UK companies employ the best people for the job, in order to produce the best products/services. Our productivity as a country is low enough as it is, we don't need people to be forced to give jobs to UK people if they're not the best person for the job. Next step would be to force people to work in said jobs even if they don't want to, another great step for quality and productivity.

On the other hand, freedom of work doesn't matter if UK people are the best for the job, so why are we treating teachers like rubbish instead of educating and apprenticing our way to being the best in the world without any need for protectionism?

[TheAnimus]

Fascinating....

[Biscuit]

Fascinating....

I posted this on the other thread. Would be interesting to see an interactive version with all the names of places on instead of a select few.

[chuckskull]

People who have the most to do with the the EU; the ones who want out most.

[scaryjim]

... that's not a valid argument as your painting millions of people with the same brush. ...

Well ... yes. that's my point. That's exactly what the Leave campaign was doing. They were classing "immigrants" as a single group, characterising it by extreme examples, saying "we don't want immigrants in the UK". It's clearly nonsense. You were the one justifying that position, raising spurious notions about them taking money out of the country, and talking about the deficit, austerity and underfunding of the NHS in the same sentence. "Here's all these immigramnts, look what they're doing to our country."

Well, no, they're not. Many of them are contributing, both to the public coffers by paying direct and indirect taxes, and to the economy in general, just by living here. You can't help BUT contribute to the economy you live in. Many of them are working in the services that people complain about being over-stretched.

Why are there 1.7million unemployed Britons if EU migrant workers can just walk in and get a job? Why aren't the Brits getting those jobs? What does that tell you about the motivation and capabilities of those people?

None of those issues have anything to do with our EU membership. They were used as a cynical ploy to persuade people - predominantly the less educated and the working classes - to vote against their own best interests. Yes, this was the referendum we were presented with, but people were dishonestly told that it was about issues that have nothing to do with the EU (we shouldn't be surprised, pretty much every election campaign I've been aware of has involved making promises that are irrelevant to the election being fought). The people of this country have been sold a lemon.

[big_hairy_rob]

With the amount of other countries calling for similar referendums, isn't this tantamount to an event that could eventually be symbolic in the potential break-up of the EU? If so many countries/people want to leave over similar issues, would it not be a good idea to change the EU to account for peoples views? Maybe it's the EUs rigidity that has made it to be unwanted by the majority?

PS isn't London massively financially intertwined with the EU (Tourism)?

[opel80uk]

Well ... yes. that's my point. That's exactly what the Leave campaign was doing. They were classing "immigrants" as a single group, characterising it by extreme examples, saying "we don't want immigrants in the UK". It's clearly nonsense. You were the one justifying that position, raising spurious notions about them taking money out of the country, and talking about the deficit, austerity and underfunding of the NHS in the same sentence. "Here's all these immigramnts, look what they're doing to our country."

Well, no, they're not. Many of them are contributing, both to the public coffers by paying direct and indirect taxes, and to the economy in general, just by living here. You can't help BUT contribute to the economy you live in. Many of them are working in the services that people complain about being over-stretched.

Why are there 1.7million unemployed Britons if EU migrant workers can just walk in and get a job? Why aren't the Brits getting those jobs? What does that tell you about the motivation and capabilities of those people?

None of those issues have anything to do with our EU membership. They were used as a cynical ploy to persuade people - predominantly the less educated and the working classes - to vote against their own best interests. Yes, this was the referendum we were presented with, but people were dishonestly told that it was about issues that have nothing to do with the EU (we shouldn't be surprised, pretty much every election campaign I've been aware of has involved making promises that are irrelevant to the election being fought).

But we'll be getting a new hospital every week!

Oh, maybe not.
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2016...was-a-mistake/

The people of this country are lemmings.

FTFY

[big_hairy_rob]

Why are there 1.7million unemployed Britons if EU migrant workers can just walk in and get a job? Why aren't the Brits getting those jobs? What does that tell you about the motivation and capabilities of those people?.

A question I've often asked myself. There are some in society who will do any job if they are out of work, regardless of pay in order to prevent being a burden. Then there are those who refuse to do certain jobs. Many jobs in housekeeping, health, hospitality, manufacturing and agriculture were being performed by immigrants who took jobs that many resident Brits saw themselves as being 'above'. Plus there is the other issue that being on benefits often 'pays' better than a full time minimum wage job, so many refuse to work based on that. Maybe we need to incentivize people to work hard and stop this witch- hunting culture that we seem to have?

[Andy3536]

Well ... yes. that's my point. That's exactly what the Leave campaign was doing. They were classing "immigrants" as a single group, characterising it by extreme examples, saying "we don't want immigrants in the UK". It's clearly nonsense. You were the one justifying that position, raising spurious notions about them taking money out of the country, and talking about the deficit, austerity and underfunding of the NHS in the same sentence. "Here's all these immigramnts, look what they're doing to our country."

Well, no, they're not. Many of them are contributing, both to the public coffers by paying direct and indirect taxes, and to the economy in general, just by living here. You can't help BUT contribute to the economy you live in. Many of them are working in the services that people complain about being over-stretched.

Why are there 1.7million unemployed Britons if EU migrant workers can just walk in and get a job? Why aren't the Brits getting those jobs? What does that tell you about the motivation and capabilities of those people?

None of those issues have anything to do with our EU membership. They were used as a cynical ploy to persuade people - predominantly the less educated and the working classes - to vote against their own best interests. Yes, this was the referendum we were presented with, but people were dishonestly told that it was about issues that have nothing to do with the EU (we shouldn't be surprised, pretty much every election campaign I've been aware of has involved making promises that are irrelevant to the election being fought). The people of this country have been sold a lemon.

Migration isn't the only issue people were voting leave for, and there are problems associated with mass migration. You can't just dismiss that. The idea that 17 million people all have been sold a lemon, isn't right at all.
Free movement of people has led to net migration from the EU of over 300,000. For years and for the forseeable future if we stayed in. That causes problems, and it's the EU and it's rules that have caused that.
Migration has benefited us, no doubt, but there's a limit.
No doubt, we could probably be having the same conversation if we voted remain though. David Camerons sold you a Lemon into voting remain telling you Turkey won't join, an EU army won't happen, that further integration won't happen or war will break out....

You can't just dismiss a democratic election by effectively saying, 'well these people weren't as clever as me', which is certainly what you seem to be implying.

[Ttaskmaster]

I'd like to think UK companies employ the best people for the job, in order to produce the best products/services.

No - We employ the *cheapest* people for the job. It's all about the profit margins.

Why employ a UK nurse who speaks perfect English (which is pretty important in 'public-facing' roles) but has student debts and needs a decent salary, when you can employ a Filipino nurse who speaks barely passable English but will work for half the salary?
Same goes for civil engineers, IT support staff and tanker drivers. I know many other industries do the same, but those are the ones of which I have direct experience myself.