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Thread: Is this a real thing?

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    HEXUS.timelord. Zak33's Avatar
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    Is this a real thing?

    I have heard a few people comment on something that , quite literally beggars belief.

    I ignored it once.. then twice.. but I've heard it again..... so.. is it real?


    Are people who voted LEAVE really saying "I didn't think it would really happen... I only voted that as a protest vote.. I didn't mean it?"

    ???

    Quote Originally Posted by Advice Trinity by Knoxville
    "The second you aren't paying attention to the tool you're using, it will take your fingers from you. It does not know sympathy." |
    "If you don't gaffer it, it will gaffer you" | "Belt and braces"

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    Pork & Beans Powerup Phage's Avatar
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    Re: Is this a real thing?

    Loads of them - apparently
    Society's to blame,
    Or possibly Atari.

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    Re: Is this a real thing?

    Apparently there were some. I suppose that it's the sort of thing that can happen with "protests votes".

    Now if I was to say what I really think.. I'd get banned, so I will leave it at that.

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    HEXUS.timelord. Zak33's Avatar
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    Re: Is this a real thing?

    I am befuddled... utterly befuddled

    I know I often trot out the Churchill quotes.. but here, more than ever is a good one


    Quote Originally Posted by Advice Trinity by Knoxville
    "The second you aren't paying attention to the tool you're using, it will take your fingers from you. It does not know sympathy." |
    "If you don't gaffer it, it will gaffer you" | "Belt and braces"

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    Re: Is this a real thing?

    And I so I wanted to believe that a developed country like ours, with some of the most prestigious universities in the world, not to mention relatively affordable education, was more than equipped to handle the responsibility of democracy.

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    Banhammer in peace PeterB kalniel's Avatar
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    Re: Is this a real thing?

    Quote Originally Posted by TooNice View Post
    And I so I wanted to believe that a developed country like ours, with some of the most prestigious universities in the world, not to mention relatively affordable education, was more than equipped to handle the responsibility of democracy.
    Not that many people go to university in the grand scheme of things (only just hitting 50% at the peak, so many years of less than that, real figure is something like 30% overall), not that that's any measure of wisdom anyway.

    On the topic, yes, I'm sure it's a real thing, but it's probably in such small numbers to be meaningless over all. The vote wasn't won by only a few people.

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    Senior Member Andy3536's Avatar
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    Re: Is this a real thing?

    Quote Originally Posted by Zak33 View Post
    I am befuddled... utterly befuddled

    I know I often trot out the Churchill quotes.. but here, more than ever is a good one

    I'm curious, by posting that. Your clearly implying that certain people that live in this country arn't entitled to have a vote. Mabee you'd like to tell us who and why? Just so we're clear?

    Quote Originally Posted by TooNice View Post
    And I so I wanted to believe that a developed country like ours, with some of the most prestigious universities in the world, not to mention relatively affordable education, was more than equipped to handle the responsibility of democracy.
    We are, it just didn't go the way you wanted.
    There has been really strong anti EU sentiment in the UK, (well England certainly) ever since the EU started to get political. Is it really a surprise?

    This is getting ridiculous, we're getting thread after thread made on the same issue. And it's basically becoming those that don't like the result taking their anger out. And the silly thing is, it's blatant click bait.
    If you take out London, England was basically 60% leave. Those people arn't all racist, they arn't all protesting, they arn't all stupid.
    No doubt, we'll be having the same conversation if the vote went the otherway about how people regret voting remain but they only did it as Cameron and Osbourne scared them...
    Or, is that completely wrong. Because atm, it's thread after thread of people trying to imply that all leave voters are stupid racists, while all remain voters are perfect people that all have intimate knowledge of the EU and how it worked. So i suppose mabee they're the only ones we should have let vote?

    I think i'll not post here again, it was nice for a while. But it's become bitter, angry and completely disrespectful. With moderators not calming, and in some places inflaming the situation aswell.
    It's really not worth it.
    Nice while it lasted.

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    Re: Is this a real thing?

    I'm almost 100% certain that Zak isn't complaining about the result, and is rather commenting on the Jezza Kyle types who cast their vote for the lols, and now wish that they hadn't. It seems pretty clear to me.

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    Senior Member Lanky123's Avatar
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    Re: Is this a real thing?

    For a bit of balance, I voted to remain and never really considered doing otherwise. However, I am now at least coming round to the perspective of why many people decided to go the other way. This articulates these arguments better than I can: https://medium.com/@oliverhumpage/i-...73f#.cuqalpg9q

    I am still disappointed that many opportunities may be shut for me as a result, but there are huge swathes of the country that never (directly) get to enjoy the benefits of the EU. For many people the status quo is sufficiently bad that they're prepared to shake it up just on the off-chance the cards fall differently afterwards. Whether they will is another matter, but I might well take the same gamble if I wasn't in a relatively comfortable position.

    Edit: To keep this broadly on topic - of course it's a massive gamble and there are people who are unsure. But clearly a large enough percentage of the population are unhappy enough that it's worth taking that gamble. That should tell the politicians something.

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    Moosing about! CAT-THE-FIFTH's Avatar
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    Re: Is this a real thing?



    Apparently it is the real thing!

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    Senior Member Ulti's Avatar
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    Re: Is this a real thing?

    As a leave voter that lives in London it's actually pretty frustrating to hear about these type of "regret" voters. It's equally frustrating when people bash on the leave voters thinking that none of them knew what they were doing. I don't think you need to have a degree in economics to realise that leaving the EU would mean that the economy would shrink in the short run, maybe even the medium run and who knows - possibly even in the long run but to me, it was a selfish risk that I was willing to take.

    I won't deviate from the main topic here but hearing about these type of voters then being put in the same "camp" as them is rather frustrating.

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    Re: Is this a real thing?

    On the other side of the coin there was the chap that Nick Robinson stopped outside a polling station. Rough gist -

    Nick - Can I ask how you voted?
    Chap - Leave
    Nick - Were you sure of your vote?
    Chap - Yes
    Nick - Why?
    Chap - shrug of shoulders and wanders off

    Both sides will be a mixture of...

    1. Reasoned choice
    2. Subconscious "decision" post rationalised as a reasoned choice
    3. Emotion
    4. Something to do
    5. Protest

    and so on...

    Churchill believed that Democracy was the best of what on the face of it were some rather crappy options. The irony being that it is not the systems which are the problem, but the common factor... humanity.
    If Wisdom is the coordination of "knowledge and experience" and its deliberate use to improve well being then how come "Ignorance is bliss"

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    Senior Member Peter Parker's Avatar
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    Re: Is this a real thing?

    Hang on ... despite rather a few complaints about the poor quality of campaigning and media coverage in the referendum, it seems we're still falling into their traps.

    There's a handful of 'poor' decisions sensationally reported by the press, and we're attributing that to an entire group of ~17 million voters. It's something like Group Attribution Error, but it'd need 17,000 protest votes to be even 0.1% of leave voters. (edit - I'm wrong, ignore this) -I don't think I've seen 17 distinct cases reported-

    We'd specifically need a post-referendum poll to find out, but the only information I can find is Ashcroft, who sadly neglected to ask "Did you vote as a protest?" ... and I doubt many would admit it now.

    EDIT - actually there may a million! Found a link http://www.markpack.org.uk/141829/su...-poll-bregret/ But also some regretted voting stay. "Idiot sandwiches"

    As for that Churchill "quote", it is a typical internet myth traceable back to Usenet about 1992. Nobody can find a source, and most of his speeches are well documented. He *did* quote someone else when saying:

    Indeed it has been said that democracy is the worst form of Government except for all those other forms that have been tried from time to time
    Another badly-attributed quote is (not) Roosevelt:
    Democracy cannot succeed unless those who express their choice are prepared to choose wisely. The real safeguard of democracy, therefore, is education.
    Even if he didn't say it, it's an excellent point. Perhaps a referendum really isn't the best decision-making tool for the UK? Invest in more schools and teachers first!
    Last edited by Peter Parker; 26-06-2016 at 11:40 PM.

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    Re: Is this a real thing?

    Quote Originally Posted by Zak33 View Post
    Are people who voted LEAVE really saying "I didn't think it would really happen... I only voted that as a protest vote.. I didn't mean it?"
    I can understand it, kinda.

    I voted Remain because it was the only real choice IMO but, as I've said elsewhere, I actually felt a little dirty agreeing with the likes of Cameron and Osbourne about something; such is my disdain for them. They were, without doubt, the worst possible choice as figureheads for the Remain campaign.

    It was a completely irrational feeling, for obvious reasons, but it was tangible - maybe, if I was a heart before head type, I'd have voted the other way.

    [edit] btw I'm not enamoured with your choice of Churchill quote - it champions elitist BS and attempts to excuse their subversion of the democratic process, because they deem us too childlike to be allowed a meaningful say in the future of our nation. You only have to listen to them about their aspirations for getting into power - blind to the fact that it is supposed to be a position of service to the nation.

    /mini rant
    Last edited by Spreadie; 27-06-2016 at 01:35 AM. Reason: typo

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    Re: Is this a real thing?

    Quote Originally Posted by kalniel View Post
    Not that many people go to university in the grand scheme of things (only just hitting 50% at the peak, so many years of less than that, real figure is something like 30% overall), not that that's any measure of wisdom anyway.
    But in the grand scheme of thing, we are still a well educated nation compared to many parts of the world. I am not bothered by people who vote differently, but when I see actions or motivations beggars belief like the people mentioned in the OP, or the 47% polled who believed the 350M claim, a part of me dies a little.

    Quote Originally Posted by Andy3536 View Post
    We are, it just didn't go the way you wanted.
    [...]
    Those people arn't all racist, they arn't all protesting, they arn't all stupid.
    [...]
    So i suppose mabee they're the only ones we should have let vote?
    [...]
    Ironically, in another forum, I was arguing in favour of the democratic process despite it's issues, and the very real possibility, in this case reality), of resulting in an outcome I do not favour. The problem is that I was also arguing that we are all capable fact finding and intelligently justify our position, and should be allowed to decide on big matter like this referendum (while the person I was debating with argued that some decisions are too important/big to let the people vote directly). Everytime I see one of those stories, I feel like my faith in people and democracy being challenged.

    "Those people" exist. I do not know how many of them are there. It could be <0.1%, 1%, >10%. That's <0.1%, 1%, >10% too many assuming we are dealing with mentally able individuals. Even so, I have never claimed they should not be allowed to vote. You can't help stupidity, but negligence of basic fact findings can be avoided. I don't see how racism/xenophobia can ever be justified, and yes it makes my blood boil. As for protest votes.. I'd be neutral about them if the polls were not and neck! That's either stupidity or negligence.

    From the posts I've seen from you, I probably disagree about 3/4 of the things you say. Some points more strongly than others. However, I get the impression that at least your intention is in the right place. Unlike a certain other member, you do not seem motivated xenophobia. Or the 350M claim. And it was obviously not a "protest vote". So fair play to you. But the fact remains that some did, and yes it does frustrate me greatly. I could vote by flipping a coin, and claim it is my democratic right to do whatever the hell I want with my vote. But others will be well justified to fault me for being irresponsible and stupid in doing so.

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    Senior Member Peter Parker's Avatar
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    Re: Is this a real thing?

    Quote Originally Posted by TooNice View Post
    But in the grand scheme of thing, we are still a well educated nation compared to many parts of the world.
    I'm not so sure that's enough or even correct. Schooling is not necessarily correlated with good decision making anyway. On a global level, we have fairly high basic literacy and numeracy, but for many it's just enough to be a productive low-wage worker and a mass-market consumer and no more.

    We're not really taught to think analytically. The Swiss have referendums all the time without such fuss. Is it in their culture to debate things more? I don't know but it seems to work for them.

    I think TV, newspapers and modern politics have further reduced our capacity for critical thought. We're bombarded with soundbites, headlines, and "X says Y will happen" opinions presented as facts. It's exhausting to filter out and just pick one line of thought to analyse, without being distracted by another. People can and do recognise that it's wrong and a flawed way to communicate, which is perhaps why they were fed up with the televised debates.

    For the kind of eloquent discussion I'd have liked to see more of, I recommend the post linked to by Lanky123! Well worth a read, regardless of your views; that guy's dad is probably a better candidate for MP than many standing Labour MPs.

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