Cladding

[johnroe]

I know a number of planning experts who feels the number of new developments are harming local communities, loss of local jobs and giving too much power to developers right across London. Momentum is a relatively newcomer in the scheme of things.

It saddens me to think that people believes in the Haringey's case. Perhaps fuelled by lack of detailed planning understanding over the past ten years. Happy to discuss.

I can understand what you mean by 'power to developers', but do you know what they mean by 'harming local communities'?

I think from what I can see developers/contractors were always given a free hand when it came to building social housing. That was partly because of local council level corruption and the contractors trying to maximise their profits. I was only using the Haringay Housing plan as an example. It sounds good in principle, using estates and old council land to regenerate and deal with it's housing crisis. Any further information is valuable. From what I see here, they build new social houses on every spare bit of land they can purchase. It's like the density of people is reaching a critical point, especially in the poorer areas. Then thousands apply for those few houses.

[Corky34]

This thread blunders along doesn't it!

Thanks to your spurious claims and refusal to provide any evidence yes it does.

That information about the social fund is fact when it came to the estate by me. And did it need it after actually about 45 years of neglect. I know the woman who applied for the grant. The regenerate the whole area; new schools, health centres and shops. They build what they call a defensible zone around the blocks, and install 450 cameras(actually most are within a quarter sq mile). The council get in contractors, who often create more problems. So they refused to paint one block, too many cracks in concrete. I know a builder(concrete construction works) so I suppose he has an eye for defects. He said in his block they just filled over, the steel reinforcement that was mostly red powder, showing on the surface. And then paint over it.

I'm not sure if Kens and Chelsea Council applied for the grant, I doubt it with their wealth. I'm just pointing out that from what I've seen in person, and from what tenants are saying and the pictures inside their blocks they post, these blocks are in a bad state of repair. I know I have a thing about TB(actually it's mostly about what's happened to Iraq, with it's long history and long involvement with British oil companies+the many lies), but under Gordon Brown there was continued deregulation of the financial sector. Also the fire safety regulations on cladding was down graded at the end of his premiership. So the former led to the financial crash. That seems to be the point in recent times when the housing market stopped. Projects were halted. Ken and Chelsea council decided under that changed financial climate to down grade from a full regeneration of that estate to a refurbishment of the buildings.

It's not a fact, it's a claim, and based on the rather weak arguments you've made so far it's a highly dubious one at that. Obviously you can put that right by providing evidence when requested instead of trying to distract via the use of red hearings, if as you claim "These estates qualified for the grants, this one got £50M (it's a small estate, several towers several blocks)" then that information will be public knowledge and won't be hard for you to find.

What is the bigger picture?

That the credibility of your claims are highly dubious to say the least. Having said that it's something you can change by actually addressing peoples repeated requests for evidence instead of constantly trying to divert the argument by introducing other topics (aka:Red herring).

I know all about forum cliches, I know all about people who think in cliches. I read the posts on several levels, quite frankly I feel like I've fallen into a Boy's Own annual from 1963. 'Here come the gang to insult(passive-aggressive) and attack you for thinking differently, like a bunch of cliched bullys; badas, butcher,disturbed guy,Corky and T(by name thinks he's the boss)'. Although you now again seem to be focusing on the subject, which I appreciate. I think this inquiry will have a wide breadth, this cladding and refurbishment issue is a nationwide problem. These buildings have been porous for fifty years, and now they wanted to cover up the problem.

You may think you know all about forum cliches and all about people who think in cliches, you may think you read the posts on several levels like some kind of higher thinking person whose operating on a cerebral level above us plebs, however your coming across as anything but what with your claims that people are ganging up on you in some sort of secret pact, your complete failure to answer anyone directly or provide evidence when requested, and your constant use of logical fallacies.

[johnroe]

Corky> If you think I'm a liar, if you think I could be bothered to lie. We have nothing more to say. As I say I base my opinion on referencing data from many sources. If people question those sources I provide them. I'm not reading certain posters, they are just arguing for the sake of it. You are the ones who are claiming you are experts, and have the debating skills of Plato. Little evidence.

[Disturbedguy]

*snip* quite frankly I feel like I've fallen into a Boy's Own annual from 1963. 'Here come the gang to insult(passive-aggressive) and attack you for thinking differently, like a bunch of cliched bullys; badas, butcher,disturbed guy,Corky and T(by name thinks he's the boss)'. Although you now again seem to be focusing on the subject, which I appreciate. I think this inquiry will have a wide breadth, this cladding and refurbishment issue is a nationwide problem. These buildings have been porous for fifty years, and now they wanted to cover up the problem.

Bullys?
For pointing out that you're purposefully and wilfully ignoring factual information given to you by someone with experience because it doesn't align with your train of though?
For asking you to post facts / stats to back up what you say? Yet when you ask others, they provide said information? (I see you've been asked to provide details / facts again, yet chosen not too..says more about you than others)
You call people bullys and saddo's etc, yet you're the one labelling people "right wing nut jobs" and "Master Debaters"?
For point out that you have clearly misinterpreted information / twisted it to suit what you mean?

That makes me a bully?

You're quite clearly clueless and devoid of any notion of a civil debate / discussion and you lack the ability to back up your points with factual information.

Have you got any proof / facts to back up that you "Know all about people who think in cliches" and "all about forum cliches" or are you just spouting off again?

For someone that professes to be intelligent, you aren't making yourself look it at the moment.

[Disturbedguy]

Corky> If you think I'm a liar, if you think I could be bothered to lie. We have nothing more to say. As I say I base my opinion on referencing data from many sources. If people question those sources I provide them. I'm not reading certain posters, they are just arguing for the sake of it. You are the ones who are claiming you are experts, and have the debating skills of Plato. Little evidence.

Arguing for the sake of it?

You keeping saying you reference data from sources, but until you provide those "sources", what you say is nothing more than a claim..

They are asking you to provide evidence to back up what you are claiming! That's generally how a debate works -

Person A - "The Earth is round!"
Person B - "Prove it!"
Person A - "Multiple images and sources showing the curvature of the earth"
Person B - "Thanks"

Thats how it would usually go, however with you it's

JR - The earth is flat
Us - Prove it
JR - It's because I said so!

It may have been me that made a claim someone is an expert, i stand corrected, but they clearly have more real world knowledge and experience on the subject than you do, but you choose to ignore it...because you read something...

Get over yourself

[Top_gun]

I can understand what you mean by 'power to developers', but do you know what they mean by 'harming local communities'?

Loss of industrial land meaning fewer jobs and services for local people. Usually the new jobs tend to be low paid retail jobs replacing better paid semi-skilled jobs.

[johnroe]

Just remember one year on, what this is really about.

[Corky34]

Corky> If you think I'm a liar, if you think I could be bothered to lie. We have nothing more to say. As I say I base my opinion on referencing data from many sources. If people question those sources I provide them. I'm not reading certain posters, they are just arguing for the sake of it. You are the ones who are claiming you are experts, and have the debating skills of Plato. Little evidence.

I don't think you're a liar, for you to be a liar you'd first need to provide something more substantial than rhetorical blatherings.

People are questioning those sources and you're not providing them, if you were then then you would have done so instead of taking umbrage when people call out your BS.

Just remember one year on, what this is really about.

You do know the more you say the dumber your looking right? Argumentum ad passiones is invalid reasoning rendered so by a flaw in its logical structure.

[johnroe]

Loss of industrial land meaning fewer jobs and services for local people. Usually the new jobs tend to be low paid retail jobs replacing better paid semi-skilled jobs.

I'm not sure if there will ever be a solution that works for everyone, it seems unlikely, so many people with different interests. I've visited some of these estates, as well as living by one. They have just been left to go to dereliction, a few badly over stretched amenities, and people pretty much abandoned as well. We do live in an over crowded country, but it still has massive amounts of land that could be utilised.

I think from what I understood Haringay were planning to use unused land, and create jobs. Just the house building itself is a boom for the local economy. I am dubious about some aspects of the Haringay deal. And some of the privately built government projects won't be paid off for decades. But I also don't trust councils as developers/contractors, their record wasn't great. I suppose developers are another way, aren't we post nationalisation, even on a local level(if that's what I can call it).

[johnroe]

Corky>Like I say, I analyse the data and I form an opinion. Yes I'm also getting some of that through talking to families in the block(3-6 children in one bedroom). The councils you won't be surprised to know do suppress negative press about them(and for example the state of decay of the towers and blocks), they scan media for mentions of their policies. Anyway I've stated my opinion, and I've answered the questions of those who are civil. You can think whatever you like, but this will have an effect.

'Argumentum ad passiones is invalid reasoning rendered so by a flaw in its logical structure', they haven't removed your heart have they?(The human mind is ruled by feelings and logic among other influences). That's as I say ,the problem, those who make logical decisions, and don't want to face the consequences that they have on real peoples' lives. Show the minister who decided to downgrade cladding regulations, and the contractors who bought it, show them the result of their logic. (are you seriously having the heart op, or was that just an example?)

[Disturbedguy]

Corky>Like I say, I analyse the data and I form an opinion. Yes I'm also getting some of that through talking to families in the block(3-6 children in one bedroom). The councils you won't be surprised to know do suppress negative press about them(and for example the state of decay of the towers and blocks), they scan media for mentions of their policies. Anyway I've stated my opinion, and I've answered the questions of those who are civil. You can think whatever you like, but this will have an effect.

'Argumentum ad passiones is invalid reasoning rendered so by a flaw in its logical structure', they haven't removed your heart have they?(The human mind is ruled by feelings and logic among other influences). That's as I say ,the problem, those who make logical decisions, and don't want to face the consequences that they have on real peoples' lives. Show the minister who decided to downgrade cladding regulations, and the contractors who bought it, show them the result of their logic. (are you seriously having the heart op, or was that just an example?)

*yawn*

Here we go again.

I analyse the "data" - the data you DON'T share with anyone that asks...would that be because it doesn't actually fit your argument like you say it does?

You have not answered questions of those who are civil, IK asked repeatedly and in a civil manner for you to answer his questions and you repeatedly ignored / swerved them and then had digs at him / his knowledge.

You ever have a PC that's stuck in a seemingly infinite boot loop? Yeah that's what it's like trying to have a discussion with you..

You are completely unwilling to have a discussion, of any kind, with anyone that doesn't bend over backwards to agree with you. You moan about forum "cliches", to be frank, you ever thought that the problem is you and how you seemingly have a talent to rub people up the wrong way?

No? Because it's everyone else's fault, right?

[Top_gun]

I'm not sure if there will ever be a solution that works for everyone, it seems unlikely, so many people with different interests. I've visited some of these estates, as well as living by one. They have just been left to go to dereliction, a few badly over stretched amenities, and people pretty much abandoned as well. We do live in an over crowded country, but it still has massive amounts of land that could be utilised.

A proper solution can be found if the council decided to conduct a proper consultation. Instead they bury a lot of detail in mountains of spatial planning documents in order to make the consultation more laborious. Some of the land you deemed as surplus in your mind is actually useful for local people. Especially play space, food growing, recreation, etc.

I think from what I understood Haringay were planning to use unused land, and create jobs. Just the house building itself is a boom for the local economy. I am dubious about some aspects of the Haringay deal. And some of the privately built government projects won't be paid off for decades. But I also don't trust councils as developers/contractors, their record wasn't great. I suppose developers are another way, aren't we post nationalisation, even on a local level(if that's what I can call it).

House building will last a couple of years at the most. Surely this does not trump industries who've been around for over a century.

[johnroe]

Top Gun>Well that's only a decision councils can make, dependant on the situation in each borough. I don't know what it's like in London, maybe every bit of land has to be fought over. Here they respect both local people's needs, but they do take over factories that have moved out. But that whole sector is changing as well, business and their requirements. The alternative is create new towns and cities, designed from scratch, for the twenty first. But there is no doubt that there is a housing shortage, and also this old stock is expiring.

[Corky34]

Corky>Like I say, I analyse the data and I form an opinion. Yes I'm also getting some of that through talking to families in the block(3-6 children in one bedroom). The councils you won't be surprised to know do suppress negative press about them(and for example the state of decay of the towers and blocks), they scan media for mentions of their policies. Anyway I've stated my opinion, and I've answered the questions of those who are civil. You can think whatever you like, but this will have an effect.

And yet you've consistently failed to provide any evidence, you can make grandiose claims all you like but without evidence that's all they'll ever be.

'Argumentum ad passiones is invalid reasoning rendered so by a flaw in its logical structure', they haven't removed your heart have they?(The human mind is ruled by feelings and logic among other influences). That's as I say ,the problem, those who make logical decisions, and don't want to face the consequences that they have on real peoples' lives. Show the minister who decided to downgrade cladding regulations, and the contractors who bought it, show them the result of their logic. (are you seriously having the heart op, or was that just an example?)

You do know why we make decisions based on logic and reason don't you, it's because when we make decisions based on emotions they nearly always turn out to be bad decisions, we worked that out over 300 years ago. You can play the argumentum ad passiones or any other logical fallacy you so choose but it doesn't change the fact that you're being irrational, illogical, unreasonable, incoherent, and ignorant.

By the way I'm still waiting for the evidence that "These estates qualified for the grants, this one got £50M (it's a small estate, several towers several blocks), so you can imagine how run down it was." Although i suspect from the fact that you've since edited that post (some five hours after you made it) you know full well you can't provide any, that you were mistaken and you're hoping no one notices, if that's the case then a simply apology will suffice.

[Butcher]

I wonder if johnroe is a politician. Seems to have the traits; answers the question he wants to answer not the one that was asked, launches into his campaign speech at every opportunity, seems to have an unspoken agenda.

[ik9000]

By the way I'm still waiting for the evidence that "These estates qualified for the grants, this one got £50M (it's a small estate, several towers several blocks), so you can imagine how run down it was." Although i suspect from the fact that you've since edited that post (some five hours after you made it) you know full well you can't provide any, that you were mistaken and you're hoping no one notices, if that's the case then a simply apology will suffice.

Corky, in fairness, while he did edit his post, that £50m claim is still there - unless you're referring to a subsequent post. I wouldn't hold your breath, if we made a list of questions he's not answered or statements he's made but not backed-up with any evidence we'd be here a while.

The 4 key ones I'm waiting for are:
Concrete degradation at a crystalline level.
Claims of "massive overcrowding" on all these estates
Grenfell was originally scheduled to be demolished, then that decision was reversed.
£50m of EU social fund was spent a block near him

There are several others, but those are the biggies for me so far.