Catalan Parliament Declares independance from Spain

[CAT-THE-FIFTH]

But can't you all see the fallacy in what you are all saying??

You can deflect as much as you want,but the votes were not verified. People have said they have voted twice and it is appauling on Hexus all of you are out of fear seeming to dismiss the fact that 65 out of the 135 member of their own parliament abstained or voted against the secret ballot.

I mean come did you even bother to even do some research:

https://i.redd.it/1c9vxv03btpz.png
https://twitter.com/Elaguijon_/statu...12615782649858
https://twitter.com/A3Noticias/statu...51170172817408

There were people voting 2,maybe 4 times,and ballots literally being shoved into boxes on the street. Nothing was verified.

A village where 1000+ votes were registered,but they had barely 500 people:

https://twitter.com/radiobanyoles/st...61899878068224

That took me literally a minute to find.


Its hilarious,at the arguments being carted out here. Imagine if this country didn't verify votes then - imagine the outrage if one party won and everyone said the votes were rigged,etc

Its hilarious you are so caught up in the social media tide with this,you seem terrified to admit that 65 out of 135 members of their parliament didn't think the ballot was valid.

There are statements like this:

Carlos Carrizosa, a Catalan lawmaker with Ciudadanos, said:rubbish“By putting this monstrosity of a secession bill into practice you destroy everything. Today is a sad, dramatic day for Catalonia . . . a coup against our democracy.”

Many of you seem to want to ignore statements like that from Catalonian politicians - I wonder why?? Does not fit your narrative I suppose??

Or this:

https://www.theguardian.com/world/20...-spain-protest

They call themselves the silenced; the Catalans who are opposed to independence but have been unable – and often afraid – to make their voice heard above the roaring passion of the secessionists.

Huge numbers are expected to protest on Sunday in Barcelona against the perceived hijacking of the political process by an independence movement that has so far never won the support of more than 48% of the population.

If any of you bothered to even do some cursory research on all of this,you have seen people say they feel "drowned out" by the pro-independence movement.

This is what the major of Barcelona said and she is from one of the pro-independence parties:

https://www.dailysabah.com/europe/20...ce-declaration

Barcelona mayor Ada Colau on Monday urged Catalan leader Carles Puigdemont not to declare independence unilaterally, warning this would put "social cohesion" at risk.

The results of a banned independence referendum on October 1 "can not be an endorsement to proclaim independence but they constitute the possibility of opening a dialogue and international mediation," she added.

Carles Puigdemont is due to address lawmakers in Barcelona on Tuesday evening in what separatists hope will be a unilateral proclamation of independence, a plan that has raised concerns for stability in the European Union.

Political leaders urged Catalan separatists to back down and ease Spain's worst political crisis in decades, with Ada Colau, the popular mayor of Barcelona, and the leader of Spain's opposition Socialists coming out against such a declaration.

There are also concerns about lack of international support for secession, and a pro-union march that attracted hundreds of thousands of people in Barcelona on Sunday was a stark reminder that not all of Catalonia is behind the plan.

France warned that Catalan independence would not receive international recognition.

But the Scottish National Party was a lone voice of support, urging the Spanish government to "respect the overwhelming 'si' vote" in an independence referendum that took place on October 1 despite a ban by Madrid, with a 43 percent turnout.

Catalonia held a disputed referendum on October 1, in which 90 per cent of participating Catalans voted for secession. Yet turnout was only 43 per cent, as most unionists boycotted the ballot, and the Spanish Constitutional Court ruled the vote was illegal.

This is what she said after the vote,and despite fuming at the Spanish government look at what she said against the current regional leader and his mates :

https://www.pressenza.com/2017/10/not-in-my-name/

Talking so much about the train crash on conditional or in the future, it is hard to assimilate that today is the day.
A decade of neglect of the Popular Party in Catalonia ends up today with the approval of the Senate of Article 155.
Rajoy has presented it among the applause of his own, to the shame of all those who respect dignity and democracy.

Did they applaud their failure?

Those who have been unable to propose any solution, unable to listen and to govern for all, today enact the blow to democracy with the annihilation of Catalan self-government.

In the same track, a smaller train, the one of the independence parties, has advanced without brakes, with kamikaze haste (we are in a hurry), after a mistakenly interpreting the elections of 27/9. A speed imposed by partisan interests, in a flight forward that is made concrete today with a Declaration of Independence made in the name of Catalonia, but which does not have the majority support of the Catalans.

We will not tire of repeating it: it is a mistake to give up 80% in favour of a referendum agreed, by a 48% in favour of independence.

We have been for many, many, many years warning of the danger and, in recent weeks, working in public and in private to avoid this shock. We are the majority, in Catalonia and in Spain, who wanted machines to stop, to impose dialogue, wisdom and an agreed solution.

We will always be in time to return to the dialogue. Whatever happens, we will not stop asking for it. But now we have to defend Catalan institutions, fight to preserve the social cohesion and prosperity of Barcelona and Catalonia. We will be with the people, fighting so that their rights are not violated. Healing the wounds that all this is causing, and appealing to the people of the rest of the state so that we fight together because this democracy that is in danger today is also theirs. Nor will we stop asking the PSOE / PSC to stop supporting those applauding today, or it will be impossible for them to be part of any credible and exciting alternative.

I am clear where I will be: involved in the construction of new scenarios of self-government that give us more democracy, not less. That includes working to kick out the PP, which today, with its cruel applause, celebrated the pain of an entire people. But also, or above all, work to feminize politics, to make empathy a habitual practice that allows us to build great consensus in which our diversity is our greatest treasure.

Even amongst the pro-independence parties they were against what the leader of Catalonia did.

Then you have opposition MPs,who make up nearly half the parliament not even voting.

You live in this very country where people with even the same political leanings still argue,and yet you honestly think Catalonia is one place with some uniform grey people who are all drones who think the same??

This is why I am so against us going abroad and interfering in countries - over the last 100 years we keep only ever considering one side and one side only and it blows up in our faces.

The problem with all of this is you are all too emotionally involved in the moment with this.

You see to want to sell the lie that ALL Catalonians support independence,and that all Catalans who supported independence supported the route the current Catalonian leader wants to take.

Its obvious from putting emotion to one side.

You cannot deflect that 65 out of 135 members of the democratically elected parliament

You can't deflect as much as you want your emotions to tell you the vote cannot be verified.

It seems many of you have got so emotional about this you have on purpose buried this too:

Speaking on Friday evening, the Spanish prime minister, Mariano Rajoy, said his cabinet had fired the regional president, Carles Puigdemont, and ordered regional elections to be held on 21 December.

Oh,right elections are being called in December.

Now,it appears the most of Hexus supports elections which have no rule of law,no sealed ballots,etc and that even in country ONE argument is all that is required.

It seems Hexus thinks that in any country,the only voice which is worth considering is the one that uses social media the best.

I shall remember that.

[spacein_vader]

But can't you all see the fallacy in what you are all saying??

You can deflect as much as you want,but the votes were not verified. People have said they have voted twice and it is appauling on Hexus all of you are out of fear seeming to dismiss the fact that 65 out of the 135 member of their own parliament abstained or voted against the secret ballot.

I mean come did you even bother to even do some research:

https://i.redd.it/1c9vxv03btpz.png
https://twitter.com/Elaguijon_/statu...12615782649858
https://twitter.com/A3Noticias/statu...51170172817408

There were people voting 2,maybe 4 times,and ballots literally being shoved into boxes on the street. Nothing was verified.

A village where 1000+ votes were registered,but they had barely 500 people:

https://twitter.com/radiobanyoles/st...61899878068224

That took me literally a minute to find.


Its hilarious,at the arguments being carted out here. Imagine if this country didn't verify votes then - imagine the outrage if one party won and everyone said the votes were rigged,etc

Its hilarious you are so caught up in the social media tide with this,you seem terrified to admit that 65 out of 135 members of their parliament didn't think the ballot was valid.

There are statements like this:



Many of you seem to want to ignore statements like that from Catalonian politicians - I wonder why?? Does not fit your narrative I suppose??

Or this:

https://www.theguardian.com/world/20...-spain-protest



If any of you bothered to even do some cursory research on all of this,you have seen people say they feel "drowned out" by the pro-independence movement.

This is what the major of Barcelona said and she is from one of the pro-independence parties:

https://www.dailysabah.com/europe/20...ce-declaration



This is what she said after the vote:

https://www.pressenza.com/2017/10/not-in-my-name/



Even amongst the pro-independence parties they were against what the leader of Catalonia did.

Then you have opposition MPs,who make up nearly half the parliament not even voting.

You live in this very country where people with even the same political leanings still argue,and yet you honestly think Catalonia is one place with some uniform grey people who are all drones who think the same??

This is why I am so against us going abroad and interfering in countries - over the last 100 years we keep only ever considering one side and one side only and it blows up in our faces.

The problem with all of this is you are all too emotionally involved in the moment with this.

You see to want to sell the lie that ALL Catalonians support independence,and that all Catalans who supported independence supported the route the current Catalonian leader wants to take.

Its obvious from putting emotion to one side.

You cannot deflect that 65 out of 135 members of the democratically elected parliament

You can't deflect as much as you want your emotions to tell you the vote cannot be verified.

It seems many of you have got so emotional about this you have on purpose buried this too:



Oh,right elections are being called in December.

Now,it appears the most of Hexus supports elections which have no rule of law,no sealed ballots,etc and that even in country ONE argument is all that is required.

It seems Hexus thinks that in any country,the only voice which is worth considering is the one that uses social media the best.

I shall remember that.

IMO the only long term solution to this is for there to be an official, verified referendum on catalase independence. As both sides are confident the majority backs their view I can't see why either would object.

[CAT-THE-FIFTH]

IMO the only long term solution to this is for there to be an official, verified referendum on catalase independence. As both sides are confident the majority backs their view I can't see why either would object.

The thing is it is telling when the major of Barcelona who is pro independence criticised the Catalonian leader for what he did,which indicates some were more content to slowly push the issue,even if took more time.

Plus,new elections are being prepared for December. That is a start. I hope the parties which are not so bloody extreme get a look in so if people want to vote one way or another nobody feels pressured,and if the verified vote seems to show a swing towards independence,then I think the new government should try dialogue to move towards that. But it might take a very long time,ie,a new Spanish government,etc but at least not more of these sort of "binding" non-verifiable referendums and they trying to sell it on social media to the world!

But in the end I know my view might be unpopular,but someone has to push the other side too,just so people can see its not so black and white.

[peterb]

I dont regard twitter as representative of opinion - it is self selecting and is only representative of the people that use it - so its no more valid in my eyes as the vote with abstainees is in yours.

But assuming that there are 48% (as the Guardian article you site claims) that are in favour of independence, then that leaves 52% that have no opinion or are against - and we have no way of knowing what the proportion of that is.

So Madrid could have taken a gamble and allowed a properly refereed referendum, or ignore the issue (as it did) stating it was unconstitutional. But they have now backed themselves into a corner, if the call a referendum now, they are backing down, and the vote is more likely to go in favour of independence. Or they can stand back and et the Catalonians sort it out themselves - not a pretty picture in either event, and there will be other separatist movements who might be looking to capitalise on this.

So what would you do now, Cat? (if you were either a Catalonian MP or a member of the Madrid Government?). There is probably not much you could do as a Catlonian MP, but you do have some options as a member of the Madrid Government - none of them very attractive.

[sammyc]

But in the end I know my view might be unpopular,but someone has to push the other side too,just so people can see its not so black and white.

Well thanks from me for putting the other side, as it's all valuable input to someone like self who isn't wildly up to speed with the issues & ramifications (beyond whether it's accede, succeed, succede, secede that is ). And thanks deserved for time/effort & word count tbh.

[CAT-THE-FIFTH]

When lots of the pro-independence news was actually pulled off twitter,and so on I didn't see any of you say anything.

I love the continued deflections,all coming from this:

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-41780116

The move was backed 70-10 in a ballot boycotted by opposition MPs.

In all, the motion declaring independence was approved with 70 in favour, 10 against and two abstentions in the 135-seat chamber.

The Catalan government said that of the 43% of potential voters who took part in the referendum, 90% were in favour of independence. But Spain's Constitutional Court had ruled the vote illegal.

So 65 out of the 135 members of their parliament either voted against or abstained in protest at the vote,and 38.7% of the populace voted for independence but it wasn't monitored by international observers.

Wouldn't it be easier for people to try and do what Scotland do and just be patient about this and eventually get a proper vote and see what happens??

I just feel this is not going to end well,and Spain should really know better after the civil war in the 1930s when they ended up killing each other.

None of what I said was lying - I based it on what was reported out there.

People are so worried when someone literally has questioned your viewpoints,that ALL Catalans voted for independence,or the vote could be verified,or even those who supported independence supported the current leader.

This is when people get caught up in social media and then go the way of what the cool thing is at the time.

Even when the major of Barcelona said the following:

In the same track, a smaller train, the one of the independence parties, has advanced without brakes, with kamikaze haste (we are in a hurry), after a mistakenly interpreting the elections of 27/9. A speed imposed by partisan interests, in a flight forward that is made concrete today with a Declaration of Independence made in the name of Catalonia, but which does not have the majority support of the Catalans.

We will not tire of repeating it: it is a mistake to give up 80% in favour of a referendum agreed, by a 48% in favour of independence.

We have been for many, many, many years warning of the danger and, in recent weeks, working in public and in private to avoid this shock. We are the majority, in Catalonia and in Spain, who wanted machines to stop, to impose dialogue, wisdom and an agreed solution.

Have you notice how many of you are just trying your best to admit not all even in Catalonia agrees with this.

You can deflect and deflect but when 65 out of the 135 members of their own parliament abstained from a vote which was done in secret,it shows you despite whatever YOU want to believe,people are not as unified as you think.

How can you not see this?

Another unpopular statement on Hexus:

Carlos Carrizosa, a Catalan lawmaker with Ciudadanos, said:rubbish“By putting this monstrosity of a secession bill into practice you destroy everything. Today is a sad, dramatic day for Catalonia . . . a coup against our democracy.”

No its more a point that unlike any of you who are saying this vote is 100% valid with no irregularities,and the lie that all Catalans are pro-independence and the ones which do support it all support the current chap,I actually have shown there is more than one viewpoint here. Then in a massive attempt to bury that.

The fact of the matter is due to social media,many of you have backed yourself into a corner thinking:
1.)All Catalans support independence via the means presented by the ruler of the region
2.)All Catalans are pro-independence
3.)The vote was 100% perfect and no vote rigging might happen
4.)Spanish government is evil

But the moment I pointed:
1.)The votes cannot be verified and there are loads of cases people highlighting multiple votes. The excuse,is "but,but",Twitter. The same twitter used by the other lot,"but! but!" thats OK.Double standards.

Hence surely that only re-enforces what I said,the vote means nothing unless you have safeguards,you seem to not understand you can't disprove what I said at all. Why?? No proper monitoring. Epic own goal.

2.)Not all politicians supported the vote.

Fact checked by multiple news sources. 65 of 135 members voted against or abstained. So destroys the point that all Catalan MPs are for independence,or at the very least support the current moves even if they do support it.

3.)Statements against the current actions by Catalan politicians.

Not made up - reported by many sites,which apparently none of you seem to read. You know major ones.

4.)Multiple indications of demonstrations in Catalonia against independence

5.)News sites indicating those against independence felt afraid and they could not speak out.

Points 4 and 5 reported by many websites.

All those points indicate amongst the Catalans themselves:
1.)Not all want independence
2.)Even those who support independence do not ALL support the current actions
3.)The vote only using the logic of the internet,means anything. Unfortunately for all of you,the US,UK and loads of countries have not recognised it at all. You can bury that all as much as you can. Nobody can verify a blasted thing.
4.)Loads of democratically elected Catalan politician abstained from the vote as they saw it as a shambles

But,but CAT is not being cool,he is not supporting the trending social media crapstorm of David vs Goliath.

I mean look at this for example:

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-40826257

In one dramatic incident, several masked assailants attacked a tourist bus in Barcelona, near the football stadium.

So are you telling me if they get so riled up about tourists and attack them,that people who don't toe their line during the non-verified referendum,are perfectly fine??

Plus even the best thing,there are elections being held in December.

Some of you seem to make out Spain is some dictatorship like Syria,and that the Catalans are some enslaved people,even though they have so much power already and are wealthy. I mean FFS one of my Spanish friends other half is in the police and he has served in Barcelona.

Isn't this the same sort of arguments made for getting involved in Libya,etc,which ended up causing even more problems. I told you lot even back then,more than one side to any conflict. Yet as usual ignore,and try and make me feel bad - I am only reporting what is out there.

This is why I am not going to continue this argument any more - if you lot can't even appreciate the crapstorm happening amongst Catalans,then I hate to think how people elsewhere in Spain must feel,if their country is starting to split again.

[Corky34]

You'll have to forgive me for not going through three pages of some rather long posts but the Catalan independence vote was anything but democratic, it was a referendum that didn't follow the rules, and don't tell me the rules are bias as them are the rules bias or not and if you don't like them then you work to get them changed, you don't just disregard them and as the referendum didn't follow the agreed upon rules almost everyone who bothered to vote supported what the referendum proposed, everyone else knew it wasn't valid so probably didn't bother wasting their time.

And before anyone jumps down my throat and tells me how the referendum, that only the people who wanted independence bothered to vote in, showed that 90% of Catalans support independence, they don't as opinion polling has shown a pretty even split thought the years.

[TeePee]

The problem with all of this is you are all too emotionally involved in the moment with this.

You see to want to sell the lie that ALL Catalonians support independence,and that all Catalans who supported independence supported the route the current Catalonian leader wants to take.

Its obvious from putting emotion to one side.

You cannot deflect that 65 out of 135 members of the democratically elected parliament

You can't deflect as much as you want your emotions to tell you the vote cannot be verified.

It seems many of you have got so emotional about this you have on purpose buried this too:

Tell me more about the emotions going on here... Wow...

[SeriousSam]

The limit of my concern is for the ordinary people caught up in this mess. Beyond that, to be honest, there are bigger things to worry about...

[kompukare]

So now the Catalan government is dismissed, their leader is up for arrest for rebellion which carries a 30 year prison sentence, heads of police dismissed. Way to escalate.

Neither side has show any great leadership, have they?
But somehow Rajoy, the PP and the central government seem to be even keener to escalate.

Looked at some of the general election maps in the wikipeadia:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Spanis...election,_2016 (and back to at least the 2006 results)
and it seems that the PP has probably cynically calculated that since they hardly get many seats in Catalonia (but plenty in other Catalan speaking areas like Valencia and the Balearics):

that if the play the strong nationalists card it will enhances their votes in the rest of Spain.

And before anyone jumps down my throat and tells me how the referendum, that only the people who wanted independence bothered to vote in, showed that 90% of Catalans support independence, they don't as opinion polling has shown a pretty even split thought the years.

Which makes it even stranger that the central government didn't want to negotiate for an official referendum (with proper safeguards like a pass requiring a min 50% of registered voters) as the anti-independence side should easily have won that.

However, after Rajoy's inept heavy-handed handling of things, I rather suspect that for support for independence is probably a lot higher now.

[Saracen]

e

<snip>

Now,it appears the most of Hexus supports elections which have no rule of law,no sealed ballots,etc and that even in country ONE argument is all that is required.

It seems Hexus thinks that in any country,the only voice which is worth considering is the one that uses social media the best.

I shall remember that.

I can't speak for 'HEXUS', be it the site or the collective membership, but that post misses the point of my views.

Which is :-

1) The will of the people should decide. And


2) Rejecting a referendum result as invalid when the side in this dispute that has all the power decided :-

a) To make seccession unconstitutional, and
b) To invalidate the referendum because it's unconstitutional.
c) Refusing to even discuss a referendum, because it breaches the constitution they created

It's the logic someone like Saddan Hussein would use to invade Kuwait, then pass a law saying that objecting to his rule is sedition and punishable by a 9mm headache.

Is the referendum perfect? Hell no.

Would, in a "perfect" referendum, the majority of Catalans vote for independence? We don't know, because Saddam .... sorry Madrid, ruled even asking unconstitional.

Personally, I have no view or preference on Catalonian independence. It doesn't affect me, either way.

What I do find objectionable is, really, two things. First, the two-faced argument of Madrid, in determining the constitution, which the courts have to follow, then saying the referendum is invalid because it's illegal. Of course it is, when they wrote the law. And second, the outrageous thuggery their police used against ordinary citizens who simply wanted go make their point via a peaceful vote.

I'm beginning to wonder if George Orwell picked the wrong location for 1984.

Madrid is, IMHO, in very large part responsible for the current crisis because of their instransigent handling of this, over decades.

I also think, had Westminster handled Scottish indedendence this way, the anti-Westminster resentment would be orders of magnitude higher.



One more thing plays into this, and again works against Madrid. Like it or not, there is a significant and growing resentment of, and even contempt for, governing elites. The people are getting ever more fed up with say one thing do another "politicians" that serve themselves while pretending to serve the people, and call it democracy. There are many, many signs of this, from the rise of both far left and far right, to Merkel's current problems, to Brexit, to President Chump.

People, increasingly, have no faith or trust at all in their leaders, and Madrid's thuggery makes the case against them. It shows the cracks at the edges of "government by consent", and starts to look more like "government by deceit", bordering on "government by riot baton".

[peterb]

^ this (I’m not going to quote it)

And while I accept that not all Catalonians may want independence, I am at a bit of a loss as how the actions of Madrid are defensible in any way at all.

[SeriousSam]

I'm beginning to wonder if George Orwell picked the wrong location for 1984.

Arguably it is easier for an autocracy to flourish under civil law than common law, though I doubt that is something Orwell considered...

[CAT-THE-FIFTH]

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-41780116

The move was backed 70-10 in a ballot boycotted by opposition MPs.

In all, the motion declaring independence was approved with 70 in favour, 10 against and two abstentions in the 135-seat chamber.

The Catalan government said that of the 43% of potential voters who took part in the referendum, 90% were in favour of independence. But Spain's Constitutional Court had ruled the vote illegal.

So 65 out of the 135 members of their parliament either voted against or abstained in protest at the vote,and 38.7% of the populace voted for independence but it wasn't monitored by international observers.

Wouldn't it be easier for people to try and do what Scotland do and just be patient about this and eventually get a proper vote and see what happens??

I just feel this is not going to end well,and Spain should really know better after the civil war in the 1930s when they ended up killing each other.

You'll have to forgive me for not going through three pages of some rather long posts but the Catalan independence vote was anything but democratic, it was a referendum that didn't follow the rules, and don't tell me the rules are bias as them are the rules bias or not and if you don't like them then you work to get them changed, you don't just disregard them and as the referendum didn't follow the agreed upon rules almost everyone who bothered to vote supported what the referendum proposed, everyone else knew it wasn't valid so probably didn't bother wasting their time.

And before anyone jumps down my throat and tells me how the referendum, that only the people who wanted independence bothered to vote in, showed that 90% of Catalans support independence, they don't as opinion polling has shown a pretty even split thought the years.

This,and some here are getting so emotional saying the vote was the "will of all the people" and want to push the narrative that all Catalans wanted independence,and all those that support independence supported the current actions. They seem to think that even independence movements support the same methods of getting independence. The vote could not be verified in anyway and also almost half their parliament voted against or abstained,so that alone should be an alert to something not being right.

BTW,my rather innocuous top post is what they are all trying to argue against. None of what I quoted from a BBC article is a lie,and they are trying to move the argument to something else.

They feel so worried when they are questioned, ignore all the evidence,since they want to make it sound like "evil Spain" vs "Catalonia",but when its pointed out even the Catalan parliament is divided they want to ignore it. Even when democratically elected Catalan politicians have said the same,they apparently are to be ignored.

When they are pointed to loads of evidence showing the region is nowhere near as united on independence(let alone how to even achieve it) instead of the nice neat scenario they have made up in their own mind.

Its all either "evil EU" or "evil Spain" aka the romantic "David" vs "Goliath" scenario. I think personally Spanish governments have never really been liked over here due to the Gibraltar issue,but hey what do I know??

Look at what Spain said:

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-41791446

The Spanish government has said it would welcome the participation of sacked Catalan leader Carles Puigdemont in new elections.

Also:

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-41794087

Catalonia independence: Huge Barcelona pro-Spain rally

Hundreds of thousands are attending a rally for Spanish unity in Barcelona after Catalonia was stripped of its autonomy for declaring independence. Many of those protesting in the region's largest city chanted that sacked Catalan leader Carles Puigdemont should be jailed.

Mr Puigdemont was dismissed as Spain's central government took control of Catalan institutions. On Sunday, a minister in Belgium said he could get political asylum there. Spain has been gripped by a constitutional crisis since a referendum, organised by Mr Puigdemont's separatist government, was held earlier this month in defiance of a ruling by the Constitutional Court which had declared it illegal.

The Catalan government said that of the 43% of potential voters who took part, 90% were in favour of independence. The Guardia Urbana, a Catalan municipal police force, said at least 300,000 people had turned out in Barcelona. Organisers and the government in Madrid put the turnout a more than a million people.

Veteran Catalan politician Josep Borrell, a former president of the European Parliament, told demonstrators that Catalonia's former separatist leaders had no right to speak on behalf of the entire region.
Among the demonstrators was Marina Fernandez, a 19-year-old student, who said she was unhappy with the actions taken by the Catalan authorities. "I am enraged about what they are doing to the country that my grandparents built," she told the AFP news agency. Another protester, Maria Lopez, told Reuters news agency: "What do we want? That they don't break us up. This is a disgrace. We are not going to consent. They are shameless, shameless, and Mr Puigdemont needs to be taken to prison."

'Silenced majority' By Gavin Lee, BBC News, Barcelona

Many of them waved Spanish flags and chanted "Viva Espana" and "The streets are for everyone" as they marched through Barcelona in support of Spanish unity and against Catalonia's unilateral declaration of independence. Catalonia's main opposition party said the region's "silenced majority" was now speaking.The atmosphere was peaceful, as police helicopters monitored from above. Several off-duty police officers who had joined the protest told the BBC they felt there was deep division in their ranks, and were worried what could come next if their separatist colleagues refused to take orders from Madrid.

The key issue is what happens to Carles Puigdemont, who is still calling himself the Catalan president - despite having been removed from office by the Spanish government, along with his cabinet and more than 100 officials.
His job, in all but title, has been transferred to Spain's deputy prime minister until elections in December. Independence supporters are being urged to resist any attempt by Madrid to forcefully remove the separatist leaders.
Friday saw the regional parliament declare independence, with Madrid responding by declaring the move illegal.

Prime Minister Mariano Rajoy then announced the dissolution of the regional parliament and the removal of Mr Puigdemont as Catalan leader, and ordered that fresh regional elections should be held in December. Mr Puigdemont has urged "democratic opposition" to direct rule from Madrid, which has said it would welcome his participation in the election.

A government spokesman in Madrid, Íñigo Méndez de Vigo, said Mr Puigdemont had the right to continue in politics, despite his removal from office. "If Puigdemont takes part in these elections, he can exercise this democratic opposition," he said.

On Sunday, Belgium's Migration Minister Theo Francken told local TV the separatist leader could be given asylum protection which Spain would find difficult to reverse.
"If you see the situation at the moment, the prison sentences and the repression from Madrid and the prison sentences that are bandied about... the question is obviously whether somebody like that has the chance of a fair trial," he told Reuters. There is no suggestion that Mr Puigdemont is seeking to leave Catalonia. Later on Sunday, he is expected to attend a football match in Girona, the heartland of the pro-independence movement, when the local team play Real Madrid - who Mr Rajoy supports.

A poll published by Spanish national newspaper El Pais on Saturday suggested a small majority of Catalans (52% to 43%) were in favour of the dissolution of the regional parliament and the holding of elections.
Fifty-five per cent of Catalan respondents opposed the declaration of independence, with 41% in favour. Before Madrid took over the Catalan government, the region had one of the greatest levels of self-government in Spain.
It has its own parliament, police force and public broadcaster, as well as a government and president, though those have now been dismissed. Catalans had a range of powers in many policy areas from culture and environment to communications, transportation, commerce and public safety.Foreign affairs, the armed forces and fiscal policy were always the sole responsibility of the Spanish government.

But,but....!

[peterb]

So if that’s the case, why doesn’t the Madrid Government allow the Catalonians a properly refereeed vote on independence if, as you assert, it is clear that it would result in a loss for the independence movement?

[Saracen]

Quite.

If you want to know the will of the people, ask them. And not in an election, which is never a simple one-issue affair, but in a specifically and neutrally worded question. i.e. a referendum.

But Madrid has has consistently, chronically and adamantly refused to countenance it.

And that, not "evil Spain", or "evil EU", etc, is my primary objection.