Is Poland right to Legislate against phrasing Poland being involved with Warcrimes?

[Zak33]

This is a hot topic and rightly is going to bring a massive debate.

https://uk.reuters.com/article/uk-is...-idUKKBN1FK3ER

Polish law is looking to make it illegal to implicate their homeland in WW2 War crimes- as they rightly say, they were victims as much as the Jews
But Israel and parts of America are in uproar, because as far as they're concerned, the atrocities DID occur in Poland - also true

The phrase "Polish Death Camp" is going to be illegal in Poland.

I'm a bit confused by it all... as far as I'm concerned Poland is the one country on the winning side (finally) in WW2.... who then immediately lost the war by being effectively handed over to the Russian state.
They were utterly occupied by the Nazi BlitzKrieg at the very beginning of WW2, in such a short time, and from my perspective were dominated. Just because someone builds an unGodly horror on their land... I'm not sure it makes them guilty of anything.

“We, the Poles, were victims, as were the Jews,” Deputy Prime Minister Beata Szydlo, a senior PiS figure and supporter of the law, said on Wednesday before the vote. “It is a duty of every Pole to defend the good name of Poland. Just as the Jews, we were victims.”

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Invasion_of_Poland

The object of the war is … physically to destroy the enemy. That is why I have prepared, for the moment only in the East, my 'Death's Head' formations with orders to kill without pity or mercy all men, women, and children of Polish descent or language. Only in this way can we obtain the living space we need

But the camps were in Poland. So they geographically cant escape that.
Horrible state of affairs.

Israel's top politicians are accusing Poland of Holocaust Denial

Israel “adamantly opposes” the bill’s approval, the Israeli Foreign Ministry said on Thursday.
“Israel views with utmost gravity any attempt to challenge historical truth. No law will change the facts,” ministry spokesman Emmanuel Nahshon said on Twitter.
Israeli Housing Minister Yoav Galant, one of several cabinet ministers to denounce the bill, told Israel’s Army Radio that he considered it “de facto Holocaust denial”.

Thoughts?

[Saracen]

What I don't accept is that an entire country is guilty of anything.

Sure, there were concentration camps in Poland, but there was also a sizeable group of Poles here, fighting the Nazis, not least, the Polish air Force fighting alongside the RAF.

For that matter, while less well known than the French resistance, there was German resistance too. Not all Germans were Nazis. In fact, most weren't.


I don't know enough about this Polish legislation to have an opinion, but I think were blame those responsible for war crimes for war crimes, and not the whole country. And certainly not descendants that weren't even born at the time.


Apparently, we're not alliwed to say "Islamic extremists" because it, allegedly, implies Muslims are extremist. I don't agree that it does. I think it says that there are Muslims, no doubt a small proportion, that are extremists and THEY are Islamic extremists.

But if that phrase apparently tars all Muslins with the extremist tag, then the same can be said of "Polish death camps". How about "death camps that were in Poland".

[Zak33]

How about "death camps that were in Poland".

yes... from what I can make out, you'd be ok saying that? or typing it.

And I agree with it.

[Ttaskmaster]

This is a hot topic and rightly is going to bring a massive debate.

I don't see how there's much debate to be had... They don't want to be blamed for something that was German, not Polish.

But Israel and parts of America are in uproar,

Yeh, I lost any seriousness the minute I read this bit.

because as far as they're concerned, the atrocities DID occur in Poland

So are we to hold the Cubans and South Africans responsible for war crimes, because the Spanish and British (respectively) invaded, dominated the population and set up concentration camps in their lands?
Are we to lump responsibility for war crimes on the victims of said crimes?

No, we're not.
Go home stoopid nations, you're drunk!!!

[Xlucine]

It's a bit of a hammer to crack a nut. How often did this occur before anyone suggested the law?

[Zak33]

it does seem like madness

but the world is always up for some indignation

[kalniel]

How about "death camps that were in Poland".

They clarified that would be OK. Also any terms are fine if you're doing historical research/reports.

[Millennium]

Probably a storm in a teacup then. I think they're within their rights to object to a description of crimes that occurred around 80 years ago when they were occupied territory, I assume this is what this refers to. Good they are allowing certain phrasing and research and reports too.

Far more important in the modern age are the tragedies happening in Syria, Afghanistan, Iraq, Yemen (is that where Saudi is bombing?), around Africa, the corruption in South America (and America generally really) and all this crazy stuff we somehow sweep under the carpet in 2018. Focus needed!

[Zak33]

Probably a storm in a teacup then.

its certainly not that, unfortunately.

Because, as in all countries and populations, there were bound to be some Polish natonals who did join in with some of the horrors, in the same way that the British have had spies and murderers, and the French had Nazi synpathisiers throughout WW2... because that is inevitable.... the issue is that Poland will not allow that discussion either.

The Polish Government, aftert the rapid onslaught and invasion of Poland in the first days of WW2, escaped to be in exile and that left Poland under occupation. So, as you'd sensibly expect, they reject being blamed for something in their county when it wasn't in their control. But sme of their "citizens" were involved... and the fact it is will become illegal to state that..hence the righteous uproar from Israel.

It's a deep pool

[Millennium]

OK I guess I stand corrected. I don't see how a country's government can legislate against accusations against it's citizens. I suspect that in the international human rights / criminal courts this would not matter much, though it would harm media coverage / investigation.

Thanks Zak

[Zak33]

OK I guess I stand corrected. I don't see how a country's government can legislate against accusations against it's citizens. I suspect that in the international human rights / criminal courts this would not matter much, though it would harm media coverage / investigation.

Thanks Zak

no need to thank me, though I gratiously accept it.... i do think it's going to become ugly though

[Robert199]

Aparently they just want to erase one of the greatest lessons for mankind

[Pob255]

It is a hideously complex mess, esp when you start trying to parcel out blame/responsibility

[Zak33]

Aparently they just want to erase one of the greatest lessons for mankind

who does? Poland? I think that, as a Nation, they will remember it for longer than nearly any other Nation.

[Ttaskmaster]

But sme of their "citizens" were involved... and the fact it is will become illegal to state that..hence the righteous uproar from Israel.

Easy solution - Revoke the citizenship of any citizen that betrayed their nation and collaborated with the enemy, even if forced into it at gunpoint.
No longer a citizen, no longer Polish and no longer a Polish attrocity.

[CAT-THE-FIFTH]

Israel's top politicians are accusing Poland of Holocaust Denial

Israel “adamantly opposes” the bill’s approval, the Israeli Foreign Ministry said on Thursday.
“Israel views with utmost gravity any attempt to challenge historical truth. No law will change the facts,” ministry spokesman Emmanuel Nahshon said on Twitter.
Israeli Housing Minister Yoav Galant, one of several cabinet ministers to denounce the bill, told Israel’s Army Radio that he considered it “de facto Holocaust denial”.

Thoughts?

I think if I was Poland right now,I would be seriously reconsidering their choice of primary air defence missiles:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/David%27s_Sling
http://www.jpost.com/Israel-News/Pol...issiles-499233

If the Israeli government now considers Poland a bunch of holocast deniers,then what if they decide to engineer some "faults" into the said missiles they are giving Poland,or give Russia a heads up on any flaws??

Poland also buys a lot of military gear in general from Israeli companies.