HMS Queen Liz in Gib!

[Galant]

Lots of excited photographers around Gibraltar this morning!

The brand spanking new HMS Queen Elizabeth is just now arriving in Gibraltar for the weekend to pick up supplies and give some shore leave to the sailors after launching in December.

According to one Tweet:
"9 Police and Navy vessels currently escorting @RoyalNavy @HMSQnlz into #Gibraltar for the first time!"

(LINK)









Twitter feed for HMS Queen Elizabeth - https://twitter.com/HMSQnlz/status/961860053115420675

Link to Twitter video of her sailing around the southern point of Gib - https://twitter.com/YourGibraltarTV/...84753422176256

[spacein_vader]

HMS Sitting Duck might be a more appropriate name.

[Ttaskmaster]

HMS Sitting Duck might be a more appropriate name.

Huh?
How so?

[Galant]

Video from the flight deck: https://twitter.com/HMSQnlz/status/961893004578623489

[Galant]

Huh?
How so?

Russia have said they can blow it out of the water with hypersonic missiles against which the carrier has no adequate defence.
Additionally, there's been a lot of focus on the Queen Elizabeth not having a missile defence system, and lastly, there was talk that some of the computer systems were flawed, although I haven't checked the details.

Anyone wants to pop down to Gib for the weekend, grab a coffee and enjoy the view, let me know.

[CAT-THE-FIFTH]

Huh?
How so?

Massive cutbacks to the fleet are happening. Support ships are being retired early and many current ships are not being fitted with full weapons.

For example the Harpoon missiles are getting very old and once they are retired in the near future there will be a few years where no RN ship will have an ASM outside the ancient and very short range Sea Skua. Also the Type 45 vessels are not fully armed too and to save money the numbers were cut too.

Older vessels are being replaced by less and less ships and less than the ideal numbers.For instance we are not getting enough Type 26 frigates so the Navy to bulk up numbers is getting less capable Type 31 and River class OPVs which are lower weight and lightly armed.

Also there are doubts we can afford the full aircraft complements for both carriers.

[Galant]

[Galant]

Royal Navy official story on the visit:

https://www.royalnavy.mod.uk/news-an...s-in-gibraltar

[scaryjim]

That's a lovely photo. Shame someone's parked a great big ship in the way though

One day I'll get back to Gib and walk right to the top...

[Galant]

That's a lovely photo. Shame someone's parked a great big ship in the way though

One day I'll get back to Gib and walk right to the top...

They've set up a few bits and pieces as they develop the Upper Rock area - the Skywalk is the newest feature, but I've not been up to see it yet:

http://chronicle.gi/2017/07/skywalks...faint-hearted/

If you stop by and want to grab a drink let me know!

[Galant]

(Via Twitter)

[spacein_vader]

Huh?
How so?

Well...

Russia have said they can blow it out of the water with hypersonic missiles against which the carrier has no adequate defence.
Additionally, there's been a lot of focus on the Queen Elizabeth not having a missile defence system, and lastly, there was talk that some of the computer systems were flawed, although I haven't checked the details.

Anyone wants to pop down to Gib for the weekend, grab a coffee and enjoy the view, let me know.

Massive cutbacks to the fleet are happening. Support ships are being retired early and many current ships are not being fitted with full weapons.

For example the Harpoon missiles are getting very old and once they are retired in the near future there will be a few years where no RN ship will have an ASM outside the ancient and very short range Sea Skua. Also the Type 45 vessels are not fully armed too and to save money the numbers were cut too.

Older vessels are being replaced by less and less ships and less than the ideal numbers.For instance we are not getting enough Type 26 frigates so the Navy to bulk up numbers is getting less capable Type 31 and River class OPVs which are lower weight and lightly armed.

Also there are doubts we can afford the full aircraft complements for both carriers.

Aside from the above, Aircraft carriers in general are vulnerable to missiles and torpedoes (Submariners don't refer to them as torpedo magnets for nothing,) and given the rapidly shrinking surface fleet (in part cut to afford the white elephants in the first place,) we don't have the resources to fulfil a carrier battle group to properly protect her against these current known threats without borrowing a few from our allies. Then if you add in her total inability to carry any fixed wing combat aircraft we currently have combat ready or are likely to have ready in the current decade she has no offensive (apart from her cost,) capability whatsoever, let alone ability to defend herself.

Now consider the rapid technological advances in drone technology that both call into question the need for manned combat aircraft to be launched from ships of this scale (drones are smaller,) and those that potential aggressors may use to overwhelm her defences (can only track and defend against so many missiles/torps/drones at once,) make launching her now roughly equivalent to launching a battleship in 1944: that whole type of ship is likely to become redundant in its current form.

Finally, we're told she's for defence. Aircraft carriers are NEVER for defence. In a defensive situation you have friendly airfields you can use, hell even tiny rocks like Gib have runways. A carrier is only good for Power Projection, which is an attacking mindset, not a defensive one.

In short she's' a ship whose type is becoming outdated, launched late and overbudget, locked into a similarly late, overbudget (and of questionable capability,) aircraft to fly off her, draws money from other more pressing areas of defence and is currently incapable of defending herself or anything else. By the time she IS capable of doing that she'll be overkill for any nation without a modern defence force and an easy kill for any that does.

[Xlucine]

Russia have said they can blow it out of the water with hypersonic missiles against which the carrier has no adequate defence.
Additionally, there's been a lot of focus on the Queen Elizabeth not having a missile defence system, and lastly, there was talk that some of the computer systems were flawed, although I haven't checked the details.

Anyone wants to pop down to Gib for the weekend, grab a coffee and enjoy the view, let me know.

Carrier already has missile defence:

2x sea wolf in that photo alone, and we haven't even got a T45 or CAMM involved yet! Sure, she doesn't have phalanx fitted yet, but will soon.

There have been claims that the carrier runs off windows XP, however those are incorrect:
https://ukdefencejournal.org.uk/new-...un-windows-xp/

Massive cutbacks to the fleet are happening. Support ships are being retired early and many current ships are not being fitted with full weapons.

For example the Harpoon missiles are getting very old and once they are retired in the near future there will be a few years where no RN ship will have an ASM outside the ancient and very short range Sea Skua. Also the Type 45 vessels are not fully armed too and to save money the numbers were cut too.

Older vessels are being replaced by less and less ships and less than the ideal numbers.For instance we are not getting enough Type 26 frigates so the Navy to bulk up numbers is getting less capable Type 31 and River class OPVs which are lower weight and lightly armed.

Also there are doubts we can afford the full aircraft complements for both carriers.

Sea skua is dead already:
https://www.royalnavy.mod.uk/news-an...-portland-lynx
No point in paying to integrate it onto wildcat with sea venom due in a couple of years. Of course, harpoon isn't being rushed out of service either:
http://www.janes.com/article/74044/d...oon-retirement
(2020 neatly syncs with sea venom ISD).

River class OPVs aren't making up for a lack of T26 - they're for a different role, and are replacing the earlier batches of River class (and we'll end up with more OPVs at the end, so this (little) bit of the RN is growing).

[CAT-THE-FIFTH]

Sea skua is dead already:
https://www.royalnavy.mod.uk/news-an...-portland-lynx
No point in paying to integrate it onto wildcat with sea venom due in a couple of years. Of course, harpoon isn't being rushed out of service either:
http://www.janes.com/article/74044/d...oon-retirement
(2020 neatly syncs with sea venom ISD).

So,basically the RN won't be able to fire back at any target if someone fires at them.

River class OPVs aren't making up for a lack of T26 - they're for a different role, and are replacing the earlier batches of River class (and we'll end up with more OPVs at the end, so this (little) bit of the RN is growing).

Actually they are. Only 8 Type 26 vessels are being made due to budget cuts instead of the 13 to 16 which should have been built.. Why do you think there are now more OPVs?? The smaller Type 31 frigates and enhanced River class OPVs are being used to replace the Type 26 frigates which we should be purchasing and the new vessels will be less capable. Hence to make up for that they are trying to build more,but less capable vessels to bulk up the lower end,especially in terms of sensor fit,etc these vessels won't be as good.

If anything the River class OPV,has a weak sensor suit and underarmed,especially compared to classes like the Holland class OPV:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hollan..._patrol_vessel
http://www.navalanalyses.com/2014/11...-boats-of.html

The Holland class is much more capable - its better armed,and has a far more advanced sensor suite and can actually carry a helicopter for long periods.

[Macman]

No ones gonna be ballsy enough to take on QE. She can hold herself fine! What you see is how it always seems.

[Xlucine]

So,basically the RN won't be able to fire back at any target if someone fires at them.

Yes they can, harpoon is still in service and sea venom will replace it.

Actually they are. Only 8 Type 26 vessels are being made due to budget cuts instead of the 13 to 16 which should have been built.. Why do you think there are now more OPVs?? The smaller Type 31 frigates and enhanced River class OPVs are being used to replace the Type 26 frigates which we should be purchasing and the new vessels will be less capable. Hence to make up for that they are trying to build more,but less capable vessels to bulk up the lower end,especially in terms of sensor fit,etc these vessels won't be as good.

If anything the River class OPV,has a weak sensor suit and underarmed,especially compared to classes like the Holland class OPV:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hollan..._patrol_vessel
http://www.navalanalyses.com/2014/11...-boats-of.html

The Holland class is much more capable - its better armed,and has a far more advanced sensor suite and can actually carry a helicopter for long periods.

16 T26's was a pipe dream, since there's only 13 T23's. When the OPV's were ordered the plan was still for 13 T26 (8 AsubW, 5 GP), and only after the OPVs had started construction was the decision made to switch to T31e.

The Holland class can fit a hangar, however the NH90 is a smaller helicopter than merlin. We could have limited the OPVs to wildcat, but that's a less capable aircraft than merlin. There's also a substantial difference in endurance between the river class and the holland class.

Well...

Aside from the above, Aircraft carriers in general are vulnerable to missiles and torpedoes (Submariners don't refer to them as torpedo magnets for nothing,) and given the rapidly shrinking surface fleet (in part cut to afford the white elephants in the first place,) we don't have the resources to fulfil a carrier battle group to properly protect her against these current known threats without borrowing a few from our allies. Then if you add in her total inability to carry any fixed wing combat aircraft we currently have combat ready or are likely to have ready in the current decade she has no offensive (apart from her cost,) capability whatsoever, let alone ability to defend herself.

Later this year she'll have fixed wing aircraft on board for flight trails with F-35B - the same F-35B that's already passed IOC with the USMC. Making reference to the "current decade" is also a bit disingenuous given we're in 2018, and IOC is only two years away

Now consider the rapid technological advances in drone technology that both call into question the need for manned combat aircraft to be launched from ships of this scale (drones are smaller,) and those that potential aggressors may use to overwhelm her defences (can only track and defend against so many missiles/torps/drones at once,) make launching her now roughly equivalent to launching a battleship in 1944: that whole type of ship is likely to become redundant in its current form.

1) If aircraft carriers are dead, why is every other major navy trying to get hold of them? The americans, the chinese, the russians are keeping their old one in service and talking wistfully about making a bigger one
2) There are economies of scale with aircraft carriers - twice the displacement gets a lot more than twice the aircraft carried and sortie rate, and isn't twice the cost. A large aircraft carrier like HMS QE can support a stupendous amount of drones, and given the F-35 buy rate there'll be plenty of room in the hangar. Any pint-sized drone carrier will be more likely to be overwhelmed when facing a full sized carrier, given that they can't carry as much capability

Finally, we're told she's for defence. Aircraft carriers are NEVER for defence. In a defensive situation you have friendly airfields you can use, hell even tiny rocks like Gib have runways. A carrier is only good for Power Projection, which is an attacking mindset, not a defensive one.

In short she's' a ship whose type is becoming outdated, launched late and overbudget, locked into a similarly late, overbudget (and of questionable capability,) aircraft to fly off her, draws money from other more pressing areas of defence and is currently incapable of defending herself or anything else. By the time she IS capable of doing that she'll be overkill for any nation without a modern defence force and an easy kill for any that does.

Until the british public elects a government that doesn't want to project power overseas (which is unlikely), the british armed forces will require the capability to project power overseas. Also, what country is planning to put together a carrier-killing drone armada before 2020?