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Thread: Hybrid/Electric Vehicles & Gibraltar Legislation

  1. #17
    Comrade Moose CAT-THE-FIFTH's Avatar
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    Re: Hybrid/Electric Vehicles & Gibraltar Legislation

    Quote Originally Posted by scaryjim View Post
    … to the benefit of the many, not the few...?

    A couple of thoughts though:

    Regardless of the source of the electricity used for charging, one thing EVs do is remove pollution from the location of the vehicle. For somewhere like Gib, which is small and trades a lot on tourism, improved air quality from easier-to-manage pollution is an obvious quick win for planners.

    The policy has very sensibly been given a rather long lead time - 1 July 2030 means you're looking at a 12 year lead time. Think about what hybrid/EV options we had back in July 2006, and think how far the technology has come in the last 12 years. I don't think it's a huge stretch to suggest that pretty much every model of vehicle will have some form of hybrid option in 12 years time. I reckon there's a reasonable chance that in the interim there will have been a further investment in some form of renewable supply for Gib too.
    They installed a LNG powered thermal plant - I have seen it elsewhere in Asia too,which I suppose is better than loads of diesels,but still is polluting. They want to use EVs to cut local pollution,but to keep leccy costs down its either gas,oil or coal. Some countries use hydro power but it has the side effect of flooding good farm-land,and stuff like wind farms,would be very useful but infrastructure is a problem as the roads can't take the weight of the bigger turbines.

    Unlike here there is even a bigger and more important reason for not using coal,gas,nuclear,etc since it requires good FOREX reserves,so renewable has advantages.

    For instance China wants more EVs to cut its crippling city pollution,but then is building more coal and nuclear plants to compensate for that,so its transferring the problem elsewhere. India is doing exactly the same.

    We really need fusion power to work,don't we?


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  2. #18
    root Member DanceswithUnix's Avatar
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    Re: Hybrid/Electric Vehicles & Gibraltar Legislation

    Quote Originally Posted by CAT-THE-FIFTH View Post
    LOL,you mean lead acid based on a standard repeating cell which are shared amongst multiple vehicles(they are a standard),or the batteries which are designed to a very specific shape of one model of car.
    Go back and read the link, it is a 48V battery for multiple manufacturers to use in mild hybrid designs. I'm far from poor, and I can't afford the likes of a Tesla that has the battery problems you are complaining about, those are niche markets. The mass market will be 48V and built as cheaply as possible which means standard parts. There will need to be the equivalent of AA, C & D cells; you need a size for energy recovery systems, a larger one for standard mild hybrid and a bigger capacity still for plug-in models.

    I have seen shipping discussed in terms of renewable energy and sulfur emissions, but that's way off topic. Feel free to start a thread, it's a big issue, but I think this is a big enough topic already.

    Saying I should lower my carbon foootprint is fine, but I already changed jobs so I can work from home most days. Occasionally I have to go to the office, it is 12 miles away and several hours by public transport so I really have no choice but to drive. I took a pay cut for that job as well.

    Edit: Oh, and China is supposedly already over peak coal consumption. There was a big stink about that in the White House if you remember, China have invested heavily in renewables but when they start trying to sell that technology into America, Trump threw a strop. https://www.brookings.edu/2018/01/22...on-has-peaked/

  3. #19
    Comrade Moose CAT-THE-FIFTH's Avatar
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    Re: Hybrid/Electric Vehicles & Gibraltar Legislation

    Quote Originally Posted by DanceswithUnix View Post
    Go back and read the link, it is a 48V battery for multiple manufacturers to use in mild hybrid designs. I'm far from poor, and I can't afford the likes of a Tesla that has the battery problems you are complaining about, those are niche markets. The mass market will be 48V and built as cheaply as possible which means standard parts. There will need to be the equivalent of AA, C & D cells; you need a size for energy recovery systems, a larger one for standard mild hybrid and a bigger capacity still for plug-in models.

    I have seen shipping discussed in terms of renewable energy and sulfur emissions, but that's way off topic. Feel free to start a thread, it's a big issue, but I think this is a big enough topic already.

    Saying I should lower my carbon foootprint is fine, but I already changed jobs so I can work from home most days. Occasionally I have to go to the office, it is 12 miles away and several hours by public transport so I really have no choice but to drive. I took a pay cut for that job as well.
    Well I hope its pushed as much as possible,since its needed but looking at many newer designs,there seems to be still the issues of specialised batteries being used - progress needs to happen quicker IMHO.

    I don't like the fact car companies have so much control over the batteries - I think governments need to FORCE car companies to do this. They can't have a monopoly on the batteries - once you move to standardised batteries,it means there is more competition. I don't trust car companies especially after you saw what VW did.

    Also the issue is look at the figures regarding lithium recycling. So the best case scenario is 60% battery re-use,so 40% gets dumped,and then a few years later that 60% will need to be dumped/recycled. Then the fact the industry hopes by 2025 to recycle 9% of lithium- what is happening to the other 91% then?? 5% recycling in the EU - WTF? China leading the world in lithium recycling- WTF?

    Even of that hopeful 9% most of its in China and you need to include the impact of that. The car industry in terms of physical weight/volume of material is huge,so if we don't do more local recycling it means how many ships will need to move things to China?? Its on topic,since that is part of the environmental impact. So a trip from China for the new battery,a second back to China,and a third back here for the new one,and so on.

    We need more of the recycling to be done in Europe. But then when I have seen Atlantic Cod ship to China,processed there and then sent back here,then its not surprising!

    That is not a good thing especially with EV usage starting to increase massively.

    This is what that analyst said,companies and governments need to start pushing this now,as there is a potential time bomb a couple of years down the line.

    Quote Originally Posted by DanceswithUnix View Post

    Edit: Oh, and China is supposedly already over peak coal consumption. There was a big stink about that in the White House if you remember, China have invested heavily in renewables but when they start trying to sell that technology into America, Trump threw a strop. https://www.brookings.edu/2018/01/22...on-has-peaked/
    Yep,its because China is starting to realise the environmental impact of us shipping all our pollution over there!

    Good short term money maker,but yeah now you see what is happening.

    India hasn't still got there yet - they are still building more coal plants.
    Last edited by CAT-THE-FIFTH; 02-07-2018 at 07:38 PM.


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    Admin Team peterb's Avatar
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    Re: Hybrid/Electric Vehicles & Gibraltar Legislation

    Quote Originally Posted by CAT-THE-FIFTH View Post



    Yep,its because China is starting to realise the environmental impact of us shipping all our pollution over there!

    India hasn't still got there yet - they are still building more coal plants.
    China started shipping our pollution there where they started undercutting the costs of manuacturing in the west. It isnt just the cost f shipping material back for re-cycling - there is the cost of transporting manufactured goods back. The west might feel smug about reducing its environmental impact, but that is partly because polluting manufacturing processesa are being undertaken by China and India - where pollution controls are less rigorous.
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    Comrade Moose CAT-THE-FIFTH's Avatar
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    Re: Hybrid/Electric Vehicles & Gibraltar Legislation

    Quote Originally Posted by peterb View Post
    China started shipping our pollution there where they started undercutting the costs of manuacturing in the west. It isnt just the cost f shipping material back for re-cycling - there is the cost of transporting manufactured goods back. The west might feel smug about reducing its environmental impact, but that is partly because polluting manufacturing processesa are being undertaken by China and India - where pollution controls are less rigorous.
    TBH,the said companies could have insisted on proper protections over there,but with the levels of corruption in many countries it was easier to just grease a few political palms!

    I suspect the China government is now realising if the population starts getting sick,there "might" be a slight issue with an uprising or two.

    Although not sure what the US is doing though,as DwU indicated.


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    root Member DanceswithUnix's Avatar
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    Re: Hybrid/Electric Vehicles & Gibraltar Legislation

    As shipping keeps getting mentioned, interesting article here on use of hydrogen fuel cells in passenger ferries and research ships. The fact you can drink the emissions is given as a plus point The running costs if using renewables to generate the hydrogen is given as 41.9% higher than diesel which in turn will be more expensive than the sludge that they run big ships off, but that is actually better than I would have expected. If you could drop the fuel cost by half due to volume and improved technology (which feels possible) then ships would use it on cost terms regardless of environmental issues.

    https://arstechnica.com/science/2018...esel-lab-says/

    ISTR hearing that the Orkney Islands were looking to use hydrogen to store their excess energy production (windy place that it is) to possibly run the islands ferry. I think that was on an episode of Fully Charged on YouTube. Though it was a while ago I saw it, I might be talking tripe there

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    HEXUS.timelord. Zak33's Avatar
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    Re: Hybrid/Electric Vehicles & Gibraltar Legislation

    I swear, by the time we get to these deadlines, things will have changed again.

    theres just not enough stuff in the world to make all the electric motors and batteries, and there are millions of homes with on-road parking where you can't safely run a cable to the road.. the pavements will be a tangled mess.

    something else must occur, and I am still convinced it involves combustion.

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    root Member DanceswithUnix's Avatar
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    Re: Hybrid/Electric Vehicles & Gibraltar Legislation

    Quote Originally Posted by Zak33 View Post
    something else must occur, and I am still convinced it involves combustion.
    I know the politicians are dragging their heels, but setting fire to them seems harsh

    Edit: Flippant remarks aside, I think you are right, the mandated very slight changes were happening anyway but for example self driving taxis could eliminate the need for a car for a lot of people.
    Last edited by DanceswithUnix; 06-07-2018 at 02:08 PM.

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