Real WW2 Weapons, How Heavy? Redux.

[TeePee]

Zak Approved images!

So I finally picked up a World War II era Lee-Enfield No.4 Mk1.



A beautiful piece of history in really good shape.



It was manufactured in 1942 at the Royal Ordinance Factory in Maltby. The factory buildings still exist, and are now the Aven Industrial Estate on Tickhill Rd. There's no way to know if it was ever issued or saw any actual service, but it's original and shows no signs of post war refurbishment. It was probably imported to the US during the 1980's.



It shoots extremely well, with modern .303 ammunition. The Aperture sight really lends itself to careful disciplined shooting. It's very rewarding to shoot well with iron sights, and to have a military rifle with something better than a simple battle sight.

To shoot an Enfield in the UK, there are a number of ranges and organisations that offer guest days, including The Lee Enfield Rifle Association, and several commercial operations offering WWII 'experiences'. Definitely a worthwhile endeavour!



Family photo.

[jimborae]

My school had armoury full these when I was a kid (1980's) and we used to use them every week in the CCF (Combined Cadet Force) before the L98A2 Cadet GP Rifle came along. As a 14yr old the 303 was a really heavy & unwieldy weapon to have to lug around. However, unlike its replacement, it hardly every broke or jammed. It Was a cinch to take apart & clean and by then these were 40-50 yr old rifles based on a WW1 design and they still were really accurate and had great range. The only downside about firing one of these with live ammo was if you weren't holding it right it the recoil felt like it was ripping your shoulder off, many a kid had a very bruised shoulder after an afternoon at the ranges.

[CAT-THE-FIFTH]

At least when the zombies apocalypse happens,if you run out of bullets you can beat them with the rifles instead!!

[ik9000]

they do weigh a bit - I got to hold one at a local WWII demo day on a nearby airfield. Impressive - and I now get why rifle-butting someone was an effective form of defense as much as bayonneting them in hand-hand.

Is that an M14 on the right hand side of that group image?

[jimborae]

No it's an SLR I think, the mainstay of the British infantry in the 60's, 70's & early 80's.

[peterb]

No it's an SLR I think, the mainstay of the British infantry in the 60's, 70's & early 80's.

I think you are right - I was thrown by the wooden furniture - some versions were plastic.

[TeePee]

No it's an SLR I think, the mainstay of the British infantry in the 60's, 70's & early 80's.

It is, indeed an SLR. It may seem strange, but this is the rifle which needed the most restoration, as it had been deliberately vandalised. The SLR was introduced with wood furniture, and transitioned to black Maranyl plastic in the late 1960's and early 1970's. This example was built at the Enfield factory in 1961. The wood is not original, but new reproduction made from Walnut.

These are all British rifles. How good is your historical knowledge? Name the others?

[dannyboy75]

My school had armoury full these when I was a kid (1980's) and we used to use them every week in the CCF (Combined Cadet Force)

Same here. I was in the RAF cadets, got to play with these Enfield rifles, and occasionally an SA-80 too. And quite a few flights in Chipmunks from Bournemouth Airport

Edit: oh, also some flights in gliders, and a Wessex helibopper.

[Zak33]

i have no idea what any of them are.

I know the brass plate on the left one is a little storage area for flint etc.

I feel the name Martini Henry is right for the middle one with the curved metal under the stock.

[dannyboy75]

I was about to say the last one is an SLR, but I see I've been beaten to it.

[TeePee]

I feel the name Martini Henry is right for the middle one with the curved metal under the stock.

Martini-Henry is correct, as used during the Zulu wars, and used in the movie 'Zulu'.



There were several versions of this rifle. Mine was made in 1886, and was later updated to the Mk.IV pattern, which has some differences from the Mk.II used in the Zulu wars. The most obvious being the longer operating lever. I also have a 1887 Pattern Sword Bayonet (Made by Wilkinson Sword!), that is quite different from the spike bayonets used in the film. It is chambered in .577/450, which is a very old black powder cartridge that is no longer in production. I made some cases, following guidance from other shooters, by using 28-bore brass shotshells, and forming them in a die to fit the .577/450 chamber. These were then loaded with 85gr of black powder, some wads, lubricant and then a 530gr lead bullet. For perspective, the modern military 5.56x45mm NATO bullets weigh 55gr. Shooting is stout, but at 200 yards is surprisingly accurate for a 130 year old firearm. It is one of the most natural guns I've ever encountered, and extremely well made. The machined parts really have that late Victorian solidity to them.

My understanding is that, being of an obsolete calibre, there is no restriction on ownership or requirement for licensing of a Martini-Henry in the UK. Of course, ammunition and shooting it would require such.

[ik9000]

Martini-Henry is correct, as used during the Zulu wars, and used in the movie 'Zulu'.



There were several versions of this rifle. Mine was made in 1886, and was later updated to the Mk.IV pattern, which has some differences from the Mk.II used in the Zulu wars. The most obvious being the longer operating lever. I also have a 1887 Pattern Sword Bayonet (Made by Wilkinson Sword!), that is quite different from the spike bayonets used in the film. It is chambered in .577/450, which is a very old black powder cartridge that is no longer in production. I made some cases, following guidance from other shooters, by using 28-bore brass shotshells, and forming them in a die to fit the .577/450 chamber. These were then loaded with 85gr of black powder, some wads, lubricant and then a 530gr lead bullet. For perspective, the modern military 5.56x45mm NATO bullets weigh 55gr. Shooting is stout, but at 200 yards is surprisingly accurate for a 130 year old firearm. It is one of the most natural guns I've ever encountered, and extremely well made. The machined parts really have that late Victorian solidity to them.

My understanding is that, being of an obsolete calibre, there is no restriction on ownership or requirement for licensing of a Martini-Henry in the UK. Of course, ammunition and shooting it would require such.

presumably it goes then that a 530gr lead slug would have some potent penterating power vs the modern lighter round? Though isn't the point of the lighter modern round to fragment and therefore cause internal trauma rather than simply smash its way through? A documentary I once saw suggested that's what drove the switch from 7.6mm (or whatever it was before) to the lighter 5.56mm - lighter so more ammunition carried at once by a person, and bizarrely more effective stopping power. But 530g??? WOW!

[peterb]

Well, remembering that the kinetic energy of the round in 1/2mv^2, a lighter round at higher velocity may have higher kinetic energy.

[jimborae]

Same here. I was in the RAF cadets, got to play with these Enfield rifles, and occasionally an SA-80 too. And quite a few flights in Chipmunks from Bournemouth Airport

Edit: oh, also some flights in gliders, and a Wessex helibopper.

Sounds like you went to similar school to mine I started off in the RAF Cadets (did the Chipmunks & gliders and helicopters) then transferred to the Army Cadets as it was more fun and I got to do alot more shooting on the ranges. Ended up firing all sorts of stuff some old (Bren guns) some more modern like LMG's and also got to fire on full auto which cadets were never meant to be allowed to do. Great fun!

[ik9000]

Well, remembering that the kinetic energy of the round in 1/2mv^2, a lighter round at higher velocity may have higher kinetic energy.

and there is an interesting tangent -have the speed of bullets changed much from Victorian times to now? muskets vs rifles vs machine guns?

[Ttaskmaster]

These are all British rifles. How good is your historical knowledge? Name the others?

Thought the first was a Baker Rifle copy, but the grip brass doesn't look right.