Beware of Ebuyer Warranty, partial refund after 6 months.

[peterb]

....

You'll see a lot about Scan here specifically, as they're partnered with HEXUS and their staff do monitor this site, especially the dedicated ScanCare section.

Just for absolute clarity - SCAN and HEXUS are independent entities.

SCAN chooses to use HEXUS to host a couple of forums for pre-and after sales service - but outside those forums, Scan staff have no more privileges than any other registered community member.

[Ttaskmaster]

Do Scan staff "monitor" HEXUS? I don't know. Some Scan staff are members here, so can "monitor" us in the same way every other member does and, I presume, would pass back anything relevant. But Scan staff have no moderator access outside theur own forums.

Not monitor as in moderate.... but Monitor, as in they do read the forums and respond directly to customer issues posted there.

[TooNice]

Actually, it is.
Exceptional customer service isn't... but that's what makes it exceptional.

To me, there is more grades than just illegal, good and exceptional. Just meeting legal requirement is to me is passable, good would have to be something beyond that. And exceptional beyond good (TBH, I would probably have something between good and exceptional too).

^That is exactly what I mean about entitlement - Under UK law, the 'bare minimum' is actually one heck of a lot that you get for your money, with quite heavy regulation on pricing, measures, advertising, sales, support, recompense and so on.

Anything more than this is above and beyond the call of duty, so to speak, so to expect every single retailer to bend over backwards for every single customer who has a slight issue is completely contrary to the idea, and in many cases utterly impractical.

There is no need to expect every retailers to go beyond the call of duty, but in a competitive world, those that do will get more of my business.. and probably more business overall.

Now as to whether the cost of going beyond the call of duty is worth the extra cost, and how they manage that, is what distinguishes an exceptionally well ran (or shewdly ran) business from the rest. Working in the service industry at the moment (as one of the small guys), I know it is hard.. but it flipping it around, what makes us entitled to our customers cash if we can not exceed what our competitors provide?

For a lot of things, people often don't want to feel like the thing they've bought has been served to them on a silver platter by a Michelin starred chef. They just want to get in and out, completing the purchase as fast as possible.

A combination of cultural and personal preference. Japan is pretty good at getting things done fast and well. Not asking for Michelin starred service, but even for fast food, staff attitude is very different, regardless of the same low pay.

And how often do we hear people complain about the postal service in the UK? I have seen worse, yes, but oh so, so, much better elsewhere either. Ultimately I would rather see a higher level of service than a lower one.

As I am typing this, I am actually waiting to meet a prospective business supplier who was supposed to be here over an hour and a half ago. In the UK, it probably wouldn't be acceptable, but in a country where two hour tardiness is the norm, it is still par course. But I would be reluctant to say that it is "good" even if the meeting get to starts within the next 15 minutes. It would make our lives easier if we can adapt to whatever is available.. yet if you want to step up, you have to move up that expectation too.

[Ttaskmaster]

To me, there is more grades than just illegal, good and exceptional.

When you leave feedback on eBay, any sale that was just par for the course, no problems, all fine is considered a full five stars... but anything less than five stars is considered a black mark. There is nothing better than five stars, just what is effectively the legal minimum, so heavily favouring the customer while leaving the seller potentially widely open to quite unreasonable undermining.

There is no need to expect every retailers to go beyond the call of duty, but in a competitive world, those that do will get more of my business.. and probably more business overall.

Half the time, perhaps, yeah..... other half the time I find those who think they're going above and beyond are actually just going sideways and round in a circle, precisely because I don't want the frills and thrills.

Now as to whether the cost of going beyond the call of duty is worth the extra cost, and how they manage that, is what distinguishes an exceptionally well ran (or shewdly ran) business from the rest.

Too many are exceedingly shrewd, though, relying on tax loopholes, law-bending, 'cost-saving' exercises or simply heavy abuse behind the scenes in order to look good at front of house.

Working in the service industry at the moment (as one of the small guys), I know it is hard.. but it flipping it around, what makes us entitled to our customers cash if we can not exceed what our competitors provide?

What do competitors provide and what do customers actually want?
There is always a cost, and if your customers aren't paying it you'll have to make someone else pay - Suppliers, contractors, staff, or competitors. How you cover that cost is a big part of it. If it weren't, we'd not have things like the Fair Trade foundation.

A combination of cultural and personal preference. Japan is pretty good at getting things done fast and well. Not asking for Michelin starred service, but even for fast food, staff attitude is very different, regardless of the same low pay.

How many of them are 'heavily stressed' or 'working themselves to death' as some quickly Googled news reports suggest?
I'm not going to get into a Google war over statistics, but there's even a word - 'Karoshi' - to describe such things... Yes, things are done fast and well, but at what cost?

And how often do we hear people complain about the postal service in the UK? I have seen worse, yes, but oh so, so, much better elsewhere either. Ultimately I would rather see a higher level of service than a lower one.

I think everyone in every country will complain about their own postal service. TBH, the only service I've known that was better than Parcel Farce and the Royal Fail would be DPD.
Besides, we're British - We complain about everything. It's the only way to get a cup of tea, sometimes...!

[Saracen]

Not monitor as in moderate.... but Monitor, as in they do read the forums and respond directly to customer issues posted there.

They certainly respond directly to what's posted in the Scan section - that's why it's there.

If they respond to comments about Scan in the Hexus main forums, it's as members and while they're certainly entitled to respond, comment, etc, like anyone else, whether they do or not is up to them.

The point, as Peter said, is Scan and Hexus are separate, and as a well-known tech site, we sjmply host a section that they run.

[Ttaskmaster]

They certainly respond directly to what's posted in the Scan section - that's why it's there.

Ja, that's the bit I was talking about.

[TooNice]

When you leave feedback on eBay, any sale that was just par for the course, no problems, all fine is considered a full five stars... but anything less than five stars is considered a black mark. There is nothing better than five stars, just what is effectively the legal minimum, so heavily favouring the customer while leaving the seller potentially widely open to quite unreasonable undermining.

But there is more than eBay.. and I do not think there is even an universally accepted way for rating services (meaning that 5* for one might only be 3* for another) so you kind of have to read the comments (and with a pinch of salt).

Besides, if every sellers face the same risk, then provided they are volume sellers, the bad ratings will get burried under the good ones. I acknowledge that the system does put a lot of burden on starter ups and individual sellers though. Personally as someone who bought and sold on eBay, I didn't like the early days when sellers withheld feedback until they are happy with theirs, but then changed to what it is today.

There is generally far less for a customer to do. They are the ones taking the risk by parting with their money first. And once payment is cleared, their job is usually done (with the odd exception regarding whether they were polite during commincations and what not). For the sellers, there are far more aspect they can be evaluated. Did the item take three days or three weeks to arrive? Packed suitably? As described? Etc.

Simply looking at delivery time, the seller that can get the product to me the next day is going to be regarded more highly (outstanding) than the seller who get it within a few working days (very good - decent depending on number), which is going to be more highly regarded than the one who is taking two weeks or the maximum period of time permitted by the law.

Half the time, perhaps, yeah..... other half the time I find those who think they're going above and beyond are actually just going sideways and round in a circle, precisely because I don't want the frills and thrills.

Obviously not everyone want the same things. But even something like politeness. Not legally required, but I think that most people would rather deal with a polite one than a rude one, and there is definitely I note a pretty big difference depending on the countries. YMMV, but as long as the person isn't taking longer to be polite (which need not be), I can't imagine you seeing a downside to that surely?

Note that I am not talking about formal vs casual, but more of an average across all level.

Too many are exceedingly shrewd, though, relying on tax loopholes, law-bending, 'cost-saving' exercises or simply heavy abuse behind the scenes in order to look good at front of house.

Nature of running a business isn't it? Trying to gain a competitive advantage using what is available to them.

Yes it does lend power to those who can afford a strong legal / accounting team, and if they are big enough they could even lobby in an attempt to maintain their advantage.

I recognise all that, and there should an adequate system of check and balance to ensure that they do not run the government, and governments do take steps to limit unethical practices. But at it's core, I do think that business should do what they can to be as competitive as they can.

What do competitors provide and what do customers actually want?
There is always a cost, and if your customers aren't paying it you'll have to make someone else pay - Suppliers, contractors, staff, or competitors. How you cover that cost is a big part of it. If it weren't, we'd not have things like the Fair Trade foundation.

As one of the small guys, I think this is where finding your niche is important. At the moment I am managing a boutique hotel in a developping country. We managed to carve a niche with Japanese business customers partly because some of us speak the language and manage to give them a certain "at home" feel and paying extra attention to their needs. We even had some very senior members of large Japanese multi-national staying with us through recommendations, when by all right, they should be staying in a 5* hotel.

Not saying that those big hotels can't just hire staff straight from Japan and outdo us with more frills and thrills but for now, we carved our niche.

How many of them are 'heavily stressed' or 'working themselves to death' as some quickly Googled news reports suggest?
I'm not going to get into a Google war over statistics, but there's even a word - 'Karoshi' - to describe such things... Yes, things are done fast and well, but at what cost?

Yes the work culture in Japan has gained some notoriety, and not without good reasons. But I think that it is a big of a jump to suggest that it is down to quality of their service industry.

There are a lot of things I could criticise about the Japanese work culture. In short, I think that there are many aspect that is inefficient. Most could probably "work" fewer hours and get just as much done if they didn't have to deal with certain customs like having to wait for their superior to leave before leaving the office for example. I would suggest that they take a page off the German model (more than the Brits) to improve the quality of their working life.

Only once we have eliminated (or at least reduced) all those kind of issues can we make the link between their high quality of service and overwork. I think it is a stretch, as Karoshi is hardly limited to the service industries. Besides, depressed employees probably aren't going to provide amazing service even if they wanted to.

I think everyone in every country will complain about their own postal service. TBH, the only service I've known that was better than Parcel Farce and the Royal Fail would be DPD.
Besides, we're British - We complain about everything. It's the only way to get a cup of tea, sometimes...!

I am being very honest when I say that I do not hear complaints in Japan. I am sure that if I look for it, I might find one, but if I was to start a thread on the topic on bad postal service, I do not expect many "Me too". I have raved about their postal system here before, I have raved about it to my Japanese friends in Japan.. and while they won't rave about it because it is often all they know, the reactions I get tend to be along the lines of "It works as it should, but don't you get that in the UK?". For those who have been to the UK though, it doesn't take long for them to realise how blessed they are..

Eek, don't think I can keep up with the long replies. But well, I guess it is clear that we have different preferences and expectations. From your perspective I might be too demanding, while from my perspective, I think it wouldn't hurt to be a bit more ambitious with one's expectations. Good service providers will always look at where they can improve, beyond not just the minimum requirement, but also what they are currently doing (which I would hope already meet the legal requirement). And if you don't, then you better have something else (e.g. low price), and you can't be surprised if people lambast your service. Your service *will* be compared with other service on the same platform.

[Saracen]

....

It's a complicated issue, though. First, as you acknowledge, expectations vary .... especially between different countries and cultures.

For instance, my first visit to the US (40-ish years ago) came a culture shock, especially on service standards in restaurants. I soon worked that Americans pretty much simply wouldn't stand for what passed for normal here, whereas we Brits, stiff upper lip and all, didn't like to complain .... with predictable results. I'm glad to say that's changed.

But sometimes, it goes too far and people ecpect way too much.

For instance, some years ago, I was in a car-audio shop when a bloke came into pick up a new radiator for his .... whatever-if-was. On being informed they didb't have it, and interrupting the sales guy mid-sentence, the "customer" blew a fuse, launched into a tirade, plenty of anglo-saxon, about how he'd driven nearly an hour after confirming by phone thatvit was,

Well, after about 5 minutes of the cabarat, the owner sppeared and said "Excuse me, sir I think I can help"

"About bleeping time" the customer said, shooting a foul look at the shop assistant. "At last, someone that knows what they're doing", he ssid.

"Well, sir," said the owner, "As you can see (waved his arm around the shop) we sell car audio. If you try the car parts shop three doors down, you mught have more luck". Then he shut iup and looked at the bloke.

Who, I have to say, went an impressive shade of embarrassed as realisation sank in, and he said in a very meek voice that would have gratified a church mouse .... "Sorry" as he slunk off to the parts place.

The point is that first, he goofed, second he had unrealistic expectations and third, acted in a totally unreasonable manner. The poor sales guy, that he interrupted with the tirade, had bern truing to say "We don't have it but you probably want the parts shop three doors down", but never got the chance.

What I will say is that 'excellent' customer service costs money. Some shops regard that as necessary for their target demographic, but other target the very lowest price and paying for well above and beyond what's required might well not be affordable on their margins.

If you pay rock-botyom price at a box-shifter, don't expect to get great service.


Oh, and that car audio place? Been using them for 40+ years -because they offer truly superb service, You may pay a bit more but to me, it's worth it. But you'd be surprised how many people come in, get a price and say it's a few quid cheaper up the road. So it is, but the service .... (:

[badass]

But sometimes, it goes too far and people ecpect way too much.

For instance, some years ago, I was in a car-audio shop when a bloke came into pick up a new radiator for his .... whatever-if-was. On being informed they didb't have it, and interrupting the sales guy mid-sentence, the "customer" blew a fuse, launched into a tirade, plenty of anglo-saxon, about how he'd driven nearly an hour after confirming by phone thatvit was,

Well, after about 5 minutes of the cabarat, the owner sppeared and said "Excuse me, sir I think I can help"

"About bleeping time" the customer said, shooting a foul look at the shop assistant. "At last, someone that knows what they're doing", he ssid.

"Well, sir," said the owner, "As you can see (waved his arm around the shop) we sell car audio. If you try the car parts shop three doors down, you mught have more luck". Then he shut iup and looked at the bloke.

Who, I have to say, went an impressive shade of embarrassed as realisation sank in, and he said in a very meek voice that would have gratified a church mouse .... "Sorry" as he slunk off to the parts place.

The point is that first, he goofed, second he had unrealistic expectations and third, acted in a totally unreasonable manner. The poor sales guy, that he interrupted with the tirade, had bern truing to say "We don't have it but you probably want the parts shop three doors down", but never got the chance.

What I will say is that 'excellent' customer service costs money. Some shops regard that as necessary for their target demographic, but other target the very lowest price and paying for well above and beyond what's required might well not be affordable on their margins.

If you pay rock-botyom price at a box-shifter, don't expect to get great service.


Oh, and that car audio place? Been using them for 40+ years -because they offer truly superb service, You may pay a bit more but to me, it's worth it. But you'd be surprised how many people come in, get a price and say it's a few quid cheaper up the road. So it is, but the service .... (:

Agreed, but the example you gave is one of a complete - end of a bell - of a customer. It's not IMO customer service there but having to deal with a complete idiot. I am so glad it's been so many years since I've had to deal with the general public. About 10% of them are like the customer you mention. Should have their oxygen permits revoked on the 2nd offence IMNSHO.

[Saracen]

Agreed, but the example you gave is one of a complete - end of a bell - of a customer. It's not IMO customer service there but having to deal with a complete idiot. I am so glad it's been so many years since I've had to deal with the general public. About 10% of them are like the customer you mention. Should have their oxygen permits revoked on the 2nd offence IMNSHO.

Entirely agree about the bell, but my point really was more about ecpectations, and reactions. He had, as I remember the conversation, just checked the rad was in, but hadn't reserved let alone paid for it. He just expected that it would be held, even if an actual cash customer beat him to it, then flipped when he thought it hadn't been. Part of the story I observed first hand, including the raucous laughter when the audio shop owner suggested "three doors down, sir", and the rest of the story (I summarised heavily) I got from the car audio shop owner later, because I knew him quite well.

An example of good service .... same shop, who fitted car alarms too. I had one fitted to my brand new car and about 3 months later, it packed up. I went back, only to find they had no replacement stock. The shop owner had had one fitted to his brand new Merc a week earlier, and he had his fitters remove that, and fit it to my car, until stock arrived. About 4 months later, he rang, told me stock was finally in and could I pop in to have the new one fitted, as he'd like to get his Merc alarmed again.

Hard to fault that for service.

[Ttaskmaster]

I do not think there is even an universally accepted way for rating services (meaning that 5* for one might only be 3* for another) so you kind of have to read the comments (and with a pinch of salt).

More importantly, where there is a range of products, Amazon often lumps them all together, so the good ratings for one get mixed in to boost another and there is very little indication (if any) as to which actual seller is the good one.

eBay at least applies ratings to the seller, not the product... But your only options are either Seller Fine, or Seller Bad, really. There is no grey area, nor measure for extremely good, either.

Simply looking at delivery time, the seller that can get the product to me the next day is going to be regarded more highly

Which is often out of their control anyway, so why punish them for it?
More so on eBay, where a private seller (like me, for example) might not be available every day during post office opening times.

But even something like politeness.

Manners are pretty much all I look for in Customer Service.
Problems exist and sometimes just cannot be resolved. So long as I don't come away furious about it, that is good customer service.
No quibble outright refunds on something the customer has clearly abused and busted themselves is not good business sense, and would make me question just how a company is able to afford such a cavalier approach to their profits, or whether they're just idiots.

Nature of running a business isn't it? Trying to gain a competitive advantage using what is available to them.

It's best done by addressing your own business though, not killing off the competition so people have no choice but to use you... People like having choices.

Yes it does lend power to those who can afford a strong legal / accounting team, and if they are big enough they could even lobby in an attempt to maintain their advantage.

That's one way.
Another is to buy so many things at such a forced discount that you can afford to chuck a few in the bin and not lose any profit. That's how big market dominators like Amazon, Walmart, Tesco, Asda and such all work.

"Yes, sir. Complete refund, no questions. What excellent customer service we have, eh!"

Bull. It cost them a couple pennies to get and they're flogging it for hundreds. It's nothing to them.

I recognise all that, and there should an adequate system of check and balance to ensure that they do not run the government, and governments do take steps to limit unethical practices.

There should... but there isn't, as various companies (Amazon, and my own) frequently flaunt.
"Tax? Oh, wait, we have to pay our shareholders first.... OK, now, tax. Yes. Remind me, what was the corporate tax on 50p of profit?"

But at it's core, I do think that business should do what they can to be as competitive as they can.

Not really.
They just have to be good enough. A great many local businesses here remain trading not because they're cheaper, or because they get there first and steal business off the others, but because they're good at what they do and deliver top service in ways that people enjoy using them.

If you want cheap and tacky with guaranteed refunds and uncaring, low-paid Saturday staff that will put up with the "I want" attitude, you can go shop over there. If you would like a polite service wherein you pay for what you get but get what you pay for, we're your people!

We managed to carve a niche with Japanese business customers partly because some of us speak the language and manage to give them a certain "at home" feel and paying extra attention to their needs.

The likes of Amazon would look to trade on that, offering a similar service but marketing it differently... I'd guess along the 'all inclusive' lines, whereby the hotel also includes a spa, bank, grocery shop, and a bunch of stuff 'all under one roof' sorta thing. Once they have the market share, they'd move in and try to force you out.
Hypothetically speaking, of course. I really hope no-one does that!

We even had some very senior members of large Japanese multi-national staying with us through recommendations, when by all right, they should be staying in a 5* hotel.

Which sounds great and is the sort of place I might look for.

Not saying that those big hotels can't just hire staff straight from Japan and outdo us with more frills and thrills but for now, we carved our niche.

TBH, I think the way the big ones would do it is to occupy as many prime spots as they could grab, and plaster advertising all over the TV, so when people "think Hotel, [they] think Tirivago". They put everything else out of mind, to dominate the market.

But I think that it is a big of a jump to suggest that it is down to quality of their service industry.

Not that big a jump - Such levels of service exist here and in many other countries, but behind the scenes you have people being driven to collapse in order to meet high demands and make things look good at the front, by slave-drivers that make Gordon Ramsey's F-laden abuse torrents look like a massage by comparison.
So it stands to reason that Japan would have a similar stress level behind theirs.

Besides, depressed employees probably aren't going to provide amazing service even if they wanted to.

No, they're not. But how high is the staff turnover in their service industry, compared to other countries known for their high-standards? Or rather, how easy is it to replace a burnt-out employee with a fresh one?

I am being very honest when I say that I do not hear complaints in Japan.

Japan is rather renowned for not doing such things openly or in public, though.... Whereas, in comparison, it's a national pasttime of the UK...
Of course, we're British and "mustn't complain", as we like to present ourselves... while at the same time making it a serious art form with more etiquette and ritual than a Japanese Tea Ceremony!!
Aussies call us Whingin' Poms, and we have whole programmes (comedic, serious journalistic, and many betwixt) that are centred around complaints. From Victor Meldrew to Watchdog, we complain and we do it well... and we have traditionally favourite targets. British Rail used to be top of the list, but Royal Mail and anything else not yet wholly privatised is usually high up.

"It works as it should"

That's generally all I seek from a company's customer services. It works as it should.
Anything more is a bonus, not an expectation.

Good service providers will always look at where they can improve, beyond not just the minimum requirement

Is there a customer service equivalent of Bloatware?

also what they are currently doing (which I would hope already meet the legal requirement).

Compare the checkout staff at Tesco, Asda and Waitrose. All do the same thing, all are as efficient as each other. But the latter will almost certainly be a more pleasant experience, simply through good manners and such.
That's all it really takes.

Agreed, but the example you gave is one of a complete - end of a bell - of a customer.

Based on that description, he was a pussycat. We deal with Network Rail. On several occasions, we've watched them slink out of court, having first had to cough up our legal expenses after dragging us there in the first place.

About 10% of them are like the customer you mention. Should have their oxygen permits revoked on the 2nd offence IMNSHO.

About 30% of our company's customers are like that, with another 20% working their way up to it.

About 50% of those I help fix cars for are like that, and often the only way to deal with them is to hand them the spanner and say, "You know so much, YOU do it then"... This, while working at 11pm on Christmas Eve in the freezing cold, having started at 6am and only going this late as a massive favour to them.
Bending over backwards means nothing to people, unless you're willing to let them bend you further.

[peterb]

There should... but there isn't, as various companies (Amazon, and my own) frequently flaunt.
"Tax? Oh, wait, we have to pay our shareholders first.... OK, now, tax. Yes. Remind me, what was the corporate tax on 50p of profit?"

Dividends are paid out of profits after tax - not pre-tax profits.

Staff costs (pay, national insurance etc) are allowable against Corporation Tax.

[badass]

Dividends are paid out of profits after tax - not pre-tax profits.

Staff costs (pay, national insurance etc) are allowable against Corporation Tax.

Its a common misconception that Amazon are tax dodgers because they pay so little corporation tax. They pay so little corporation tax because they make so little profit. What most companies extract as profit and use to pay shareholders in the form of dividends and share buybacks, amazon reinvest in the business. They don't need to use dubious tax dodges because of this.

[Ttaskmaster]

Dividends are paid out of profits after tax - not pre-tax profits.

But there are plenty of things that can be (and do get) paid out to lessen the declarable profit, which is basically unofficial dividends since they're blatantly going to the same place.

Its a common misconception that Amazon are tax dodgers because they pay so little corporation tax.

Oh, they don't evade tax... but like us, they're masters at the perfectly legal tax avoidance. They just have to put up with a bit of public harrumphing over the morality of it.

They pay so little corporation tax because they make so little profit.

Worth nearly $900 billion, but make so little profit??!! Jeff Bezos one of the richest people in the world from so little profit??!!
Yeah, just like how Star Wars has made a "loss" in all the years since 1977.......

What most companies extract as profit and use to pay shareholders in the form of dividends and share buybacks, amazon reinvest in the business. They don't need to use dubious tax dodges because of this.

No, they don't need dubious tax dodges because there are perfectly legal tax avoidances already provided that enable them to have loads of money and still afford to invest in buying more of the world to hoard... and Trump made it even easier by reducing corporate tax, I believe?

[peterb]

Amazon Europe based themselves in Luxembourg because Junkers - as Finance minister - made Luxembourg a tax haven before he went on to become president of the European Commission.

[Saracen]

Worth nearly $900 billion, but make so little profit??!! Jeff Bezos one of the richest people in the world from so little profit??!!

Perfectly possible. And not uncommon, especially in the tech world.

For instance, good old Microsoft paid no dividends for about 20 years. Yet shareholders were happy, and Gates a multi-billionaire.

How?

Simple. Shareholders derive benefit in two primary ways - dividends and share value. Even if dividends are zero, a shareholder in most companies are going to be very happy if the share price goes up 20%, so how'd you think they feel if it goes up 150%?

So, I buy 100,000 shares in Saracen Corp at £1 per share. After a year, they're worth £5 each. My £100k is now £500k.

Then, next year, they triple, now worth £1.5m. But at £15 each, that's starting to look a bit pricey per share and it inhibits trading, so we do a rights issue of 1 for 1. Now, each share is only worth £7.50 .... but I have 200,000 of them.

Next year, they quadruple, so my £7.50 per share is now £30. Again, a bit expensive, so we do a 3 for 1 rights issue, and now I have 600,000 shares worth £10 each.

My £100k investment has turned into £6 million, and I haven't been paid one penny in dividends. Nor, for that matter, have I paid any income tax on it for the simple reason that I haven't had any income. Where I will get hit is when, and indeed if, I sell shares. Then, there's CGT (Capital Gains Tax) .... once I exceed the threshold.

Of courae, if I'm sneaky, I can use the shares as collateral forca loan, to do something else.

Why would shares accelerate in value like that? Two main ways. One, market pressure. The more they're wsnted, the more they're worth. That can risk volatile share prices, even bubhles, but it can also simply reflect tgat the compamy is growing extremely, and I mean extremely fast. Sooooo .... if you're in an innovative growth market, and you're the market leader, you really need to grow at very high rates or some predator will swoop in and outgrow you but if you can stay in front, you can have phenomenal growth.

How do you best achieve that growth? By investing every penny the company makes, and borrowing pretty heavily, to finance expansion. You ooen new warehouses, build distribution channels, expand into foreign markets, go global, etc. It probably also means huge advertising and PR budgets but if you're not careful, you create a monster that has to keep growing or it'll devour itself and implode, so you break into new market after new market.

And you STILL are msking profit, or not to speak off, because you don't want to. You're re-investing at a huge rate.

And, no (or minimal) profits equals no (or equally minimal) corporation tax because, as others have said, Corp Tax is paid on profits.

Joe Public simply cannot tell if a company does, or should, make a profit. You have to look at, and be able to read, published accounts and even then, it ain't easy. But one firm sign of a company not making profits on which it pays tax is a rapid rise in share price.

And why are the likes of Bezos and Gates "worth" billions? A LOT of that wealth will detive directly from shareholdings in the company they founded, byt even then things aren't quite what they seem. They'll hold millions, maybe hundreds of millions of shares but the only way to actually realise that wealth is to sell the shares, and if someone puts any significant chunk of that on the market at one time the price will fall (supply and demand 101) and if it gets out it's the founder it'll likely be 10 times as bad. And then, you get hit with a whopper of a CGT bill as well.

And on the tax front, we haven't yet even mentioned international companies and the hundreds on "double taxation" treaties every major country has with avery other one.