Legitimate Brexit Betrayal?

[Galant]

I think the point is that it's the equivalent of the 'no deal' option - once we actually implement a trade agreement the backstop doesn't apply so there's nothing to withhold release from. The same applies the other way as well - the EU can't pull the pre-implementation backstop out without our agreement either.

That assumes the EU ever agree to anything better (for the UK) than the withdrawal agreement. They can simply build their own case using the withdrawal agreement as the foundation. Once the agreement is locked in the EU will negotiate further in their favour, not the other way. Thus a backstop in perpetuity or else a worse status for the UK.

[kalniel]

That assumes the EU ever agree to anything better (for the UK) than the withdrawal agreement. They can simply build their own case using the withdrawal agreement as the foundation. Once the agreement is locked in the EU will negotiate further in their favour, not the other way.

And ditto the UK. We know we can't get worse than the backstop so we don't have to agree to anything worse for the UK.

[Galant]

And ditto the UK. We know we can't get worse than the backstop so we don't have to agree to anything worse for the UK.

And so we'd be stuck with what is laid out in the withdrawal agreement - which is, or should be, an inconceivable arrangement. And since it that is inconceivable is it more likely the UK or EU will capitulate towards a worse deal?

[kalniel]

And so we'd be stuck with what is laid out in the withdrawal agreement - which is, or should be, an inconceivable arrangement. And since it that is inconceivable is it more likely the UK or EU will capitulate towards a worse deal?

Or no deal, or a different deal, or a people's vote, or remain.

[Galant]

Or no deal, or a different deal, or a people's vote, or remain.

Erm.... no?

The whole point of this thread is Brexit betrayal - remain would be just that. A people vote is basically the same thing.
A different deal is logically omitted by the previous point, and no-deal may be blocked by the EU veto right.

[Galant]

Another one gone. That's 7 resignations so far:

PPS to Justice Ministry Ranil Jayawardena resigns:

[Smudger]

Erm.... no?

The whole point of this thread is Brexit betrayal - remain would be just that. A people vote is basically the same thing.
A different deal is logically omitted by the previous point, and no-deal may be blocked by the EU veto right.

Why would it be a betrayal if, having seen what a massive clusterfudge Brexit is, we have a vote to say 'actually, does the country still want this?'

[opel80uk]

What all this surprise & anger really is, is leave campaigners & voters chickens coming home to roost. They were happy to use selective logic themselves and support an incredibly ill-conceived, badly thought out and vaguely worded referendum, and shout down all of those who said that what had been promised in the referendum was undeliverable and, in some instances evidently contradictory. And now, at a time when those who said the Brexit that was promised was undeliverable have been proven to be correct, they are indignant with rage at the PM for not being able to deliver literally the undeliverable, bandying words like ‘betrayal’, seemingly oblivious to the fact that, given the referendum promised that Brexit would be all things to all men, whatever deal she came back with would be betraying someone. It’s quite amusing seeing leave voters get their knickers in a twist over something that was so obviously going to happen.

[opel80uk]

Why would it be a betrayal if, having seen what a massive clusterfudge Brexit is, we have a vote to say 'actually, does the country still want this?'

It's not. They call it a betrayal because, and despite their protestations being under the guise of protecting democracy, they know full well that a second vote hasn’t a hope of getting through, now the people see how crap the deal(s) on offer are.

[Splash]

It's interesting seeing some of the language being used by the Brexiteers - "betrayal" is pretty emotive but seems to be getting thrown around rather a lot. Also interesting is the number of people who seem to know exactly what kind of deal everybody who voted to leave wanted.

Despite all the "you lost, get over it" (again, seems to be worded to prompt an emotional response it really looks to be toys out of pram time.

Personally: I'm waiting 'til I can read the actual deal before I make a decision as to how I feel, but I'm expecting that nobody is going to be getting exactly (or in fact even an approximation of) what they want. The whole situation seems to be a giant poop sandwich, which we now all need to take a collective bite of. There are certainly lessons to be learned on both sides of the argument, and to me the last 2 years have basically been people yelling at each other, telling people that they're idiots without trying to understand other people's viewpoints. I've some pretty passionate beliefs on this, but it's been like trying to discuss things politely with a wind tunnel, so I gave up.


I guess what I'd say is: you won, get on with it.

[The Hand]

I guess what I'd say is: you won, get on with it.

Looks like Jacob Rees-Mogg is: https://www.theguardian.com/politics...b0772932e204be

Does anyone want to place bets on who is in No. 10 on Christmas Day? Johnson, Corbyn, Javid etc? I wouldn't want to guess..

[Splash]

Looks like Jacob Rees-Mogg is: https://www.theguardian.com/politics...b0772932e204be

I'm not sure that has anything to do with Brexit, rather about ousting May and replacing her with someone who will give him what he wants more.

[Smudger]

So Anna Soubry was right, JRM and his ERG mates are running the Tories...

[Ttaskmaster]

It's interesting seeing some of the language being used by the Brexiteers - "betrayal" is pretty emotive but seems to be getting thrown around rather a lot.

Unless this is the first time they've ever voted for anything political, like ever, ever ever... they should be fully expecting a "betrayal" from whichever party gains power. It's like getting the bill after you finish your restaurant meal... it is expected, nigh-on required, and a rare surprise indeed if ever the house turns round and decides you don't need to pay...

people yelling at each other, telling people that they're idiots without trying to understand other people's viewpoints.

Most of the time those viewpoints are whatever their newspaper of choice has told them to believe, having previously told them how to vote.

Does anyone want to place bets on who is in No. 10 on Christmas Day? Johnson, Corbyn, Javid etc? I wouldn't want to guess..

I'll take £50 on Donald Trump at 5:1..... aaaaaaaaaand....... £30 at 12:1 on former governer of California, Arnold Schwarzenegger, please.

[Galant]

I think betrayal is appropriate where the possibility of leading the UK back into the EU exists, rather than leaving. As mentioned early on, this agreement looks like incompetence, or intentional collaboration. So where people voted for leaving the EU, but then didn't get it, despite promises to the contrary, then that would be a legitimate betrayal.

[Galant]

Another resignation letter, albeit it with an additional non-Brexit matter thrown in:

https://twitter.com/Rehman_Chishti/s...83736164720640

"My letter of resignation sent to PM @theresa_may stepping down as Vice Chairman @Conservatives & PM Trade Envoy to Pakistan. 1. Cannot support Draft EU Withdrawal Agreement. 2. Very disappointed by lack of leadership shown by UK Gov to do morally right thing in Asia Bibi Case."