Legitimate Brexit Betrayal?

[Smudger]

I think betrayal is appropriate where the possibility of leading the UK back into the EU exists, rather than leaving. As mentioned early on, this agreement looks like incompetence, or intentional collaboration. So where people voted for leaving the EU, but then didn't get it, despite promises to the contrary, then that would be a legitimate betrayal.

But is it a betrayal if this really is the best Brexit we can get without no-deal? And is it a betrayal if the people say 'actually, having seen that we're not going to get sunlit uplands, and it's going to be terrible for quite a few years, we don't want this any more'? What if the 'will of the people' isn't Brexit any more. Let's say young people as a group prefer not to leave, and old people as a group prefer to leave, a lot of the old people will have died off, whilst a lot of young people who previously weren't able to vote now can. That implies that the 52/48 majority isn't there any more.

[Corky34]

I think betrayal is appropriate where the possibility of leading the UK back into the EU exists, rather than leaving. As mentioned early on, this agreement looks like incompetence, or intentional collaboration. So where people voted for leaving the EU, but then didn't get it, despite promises to the contrary, then that would be a legitimate betrayal.

Depends what we're defining the EU as, some people like Mr Disaster Capitalism (aka:JRM) would consider it to be everything and anything remotely associated with the EU, others would consider it the political and economic union of the 28 member states so would consider anything and everything other than that to not be the EU.

Unfortunately 'call me dave' never bothered defining what he meant when he called for the referendum to be held on our membership of the EU, i think for him it was never about being a member of the EU.

[Galant]

But is it a betrayal if this really is the best Brexit we can get without no-deal? And is it a betrayal if the people say 'actually, having seen that we're not going to get sunlit uplands, and it's going to be terrible for quite a few years, we don't want this any more'? What if the 'will of the people' isn't Brexit any more. Let's say young people as a group prefer not to leave, and old people as a group prefer to leave, a lot of the old people will have died off, whilst a lot of young people who previously weren't able to vote now can. That implies that the 52/48 majority isn't there any more.

Yes, because this deal being negotiated isn't Brexit. It's simply an attempt to come to a trade agreement with the EU for future relationships. Brexit is the exit from the EU so that the UK can govern itself more independently, make its own laws and pursue whatever trade deals it desires. The larger part of Brexit is the part we haven't got to yet. But that larger part cannot exist unless we can come out from under EU governance - and that's why a 'Brexit' that fails to come out from the EU is not a Brexit.

The potential for the UK on the other side of this 'divorce' is massive, if we can get there with the freedom to explore it.

[Galant]

PM May press conference:

[spacein_vader]

PM May press conference:

Carrying on regardless.

I'll say this for her, she can take a beating and keep plugging away. For all the good it'll do her.

[Splash]

I think betrayal is appropriate where the possibility of leading the UK back into the EU exists, rather than leaving. As mentioned early on, this agreement looks like incompetence, or intentional collaboration. So where people voted for leaving the EU, but then didn't get it, despite promises to the contrary, then that would be a legitimate betrayal.

It's almost as if someone should have defined exactly what Brexit is, instead of constantly trotting out the line that "Brexit means Brexit". As I said, my expectation is that precisely nobody will get what they wanted (and in some cases they seem to be pretty certain as to the exact definition). As an example: I don't recall anything on the ballot paper stating "leave the EU, never to return".

[Corky34]

Yes, because this deal being negotiated isn't Brexit. It's simply an attempt to come to a trade agreement with the EU for future relationships.

It's not even that, it's just the withdrawal agreement, it's just an agreement on what they believe would be the best way to go about unraveling 40+ years of political, economic, security, and scientific collaboration, this, so we were told, is the easy part.

After this there's another 175 international treaties that will need sorting out.

I'll say this for her, she can take a beating and keep plugging away. For all the good it'll do her.

She's the unholy reincarnation of the black knight, tis but a scratch.

[atemporal]

It's not even that, it's just the withdrawal agreement, it's just an agreement on what they believe would be the best way to go about unraveling 40+ years of political, economic, security, and scientific collaboration, this, so we were told, is the easy part.

After this there's another 175 international treaties that will need sorting out.



She's the unholy reincarnation of the black knight, tis but a scratch.

[The Hand]

The Theresa May Brexit deal calculator is here!

https://www.theguardian.com/politics...ugh-parliament

Maybe with wavering tory leavers plus some others might see the deal squeak through.. but it's looking a little grim for Theresa May.

[OilSheikh]

What's with all the gloomy comments Hexites?
I have been saying for years how uncontrolled immigration from East Europe has been ruining the country and you all laughed at me back then.
Well, let's invite 10 million more.

[ik9000]

What's with all the gloomy comments Hexites?
I have been saying for years how uncontrolled immigration from East Europe has been ruining the country and you all laughed at me back then.
Well, let's invite 10 million more.

But that;s just it. People who voted out are hacked off that May seems to be offering them far less than out. People who voted remain are hacked off May is offering far less than remain. This is a nothing. A farce, a half-baked deal. It's worse than either of those two poles so far as I've read, and won't stop migration that you complain about.

[Saracen]

It's interesting seeing some of the language being used by the Brexiteers - "betrayal" is pretty emotive but seems to be getting thrown around rather a lot. Also interesting is the number of people who seem to know exactly what kind of deal everybody who voted to leave wanted.

Despite all the "you lost, get over it" (again, seems to be worded to prompt an emotional response it really looks to be toys out of pram time.

Personally: I'm waiting 'til I can read the actual deal before I make a decision as to how I feel, but I'm expecting that nobody is going to be getting exactly (or in fact even an approximation of) what they want. The whole situation seems to be a giant poop sandwich, which we now all need to take a collective bite of. There are certainly lessons to be learned on both sides of the argument, and to me the last 2 years have basically been people yelling at each other, telling people that they're idiots without trying to understand other people's viewpoints. I've some pretty passionate beliefs on this, but it's been like trying to discuss things politely with a wind tunnel, so I gave up.


I guess what I'd say is: you won, get on with it.

There's a reason it's called betrayal. It's because when you compare Msy's own oft-repeated words of what she was going to do, with the "deal" she is now trying to push, there's no other conclusion to be reached, thsn thst the lying, conniving bitch betrayed both her own words, and the result of the referendum.

It doesn't helo that a PM who, despite being a remainer, apponted a Brexit-supporting departmental Secretary, who is supposed to be running their department, and then side-lined thrm in favour of an unelected official, also a dedicated Remainer.

TWICE.

Also, the reason for "you lost, get over it" is because by the time some of us got aroundcto that attitude, we'd had a year of non-stop attempts by tjose who lost to have s do-over. Some people just can't accept that they lost a vote.

For example, non-stop harking on about 350m/day being a "lie" and absolute silence on the complete drivel the Treasury, among others, were coming out with in economic "firecasts", showing what the economy will be doing in 2035, a d treating it as if it were fact. There is not an economic model anywhere on the planet, or anywhere in the history of the planet, where a prediction nearly 20 years in the future is any better than wild speculation.

We do, however, know for an utter certainty that the predicted effects, by some of the same people, about the immediate effects of the referendum vote (no, not actually Brexiting, but simply voting go do so) were almost entirely, and massively, wrong.

So if they can't get a prediction 6 to 12 weeks ahead, what chance they're right about 20 years?

That's why some, including me, said you lost (referring to a properly constituted referendum vote) get over it, because they've done little since but try go overturn it.

So no, it's not designed to trigger an emotional response. It is an emotional response to non-stop whinging from some (not all, by any means) remainers whp cannot accept that we voted snd they lost.

That, frankly, is the difference between a Remainer (perfectly respectable and reasonable position to adopt) and a Remoaner, who acts like a sore loser that cannot accept that they lost.

And before anyone moans about Remoaner being sn insult, you ought to try putting up with the barrage of obnoxious terms anyone with an anti-EU view has been putting up with for years, decades even, from msny of the same people.

I, personally, have bern told it's because I just want to see the Queen's head on the vurrency (I don't give a fig), the being a "litle englander" to being, somehow a racist. I have explained, at length, over and over again, my reasons, both political and economic, only to get called a racist, or similar.

FOR FLAMING YEARS.

And you wonder why those such as me consider if a betrayal when a remainer PM sidelines her own appointed Brexit Secretary (a Brexiter) to let an appointed apparachik (Robbins) run negotiatons, and then comes back with a "deal" that utterly fails to meet her own red lines, with the pathetic excuse that it's "in the nation's interests". Horlicks, it is.

It's not only a betrayal, it's pretty damn close to treason.

[Saracen]

But that;s just it. People who voted out are hacked off that May seems to be offering them far less than out. People who voted remain are hacked off May is offering far less than remain. This is a nothing. A farce, a half-baked deal. It's worse than either of those two poles so far as I've read, and won't stop migration that you complain about.

Exactly.

As a determined Brexit supporter, this so-called deal is worse than remaining in. And I cannot help but wonder if, as a remainer that is precisely her intention. That might also explain why yesterday, for the first time, she mentioned remaining in as a possible outcome.

She seems to have managed two things I previously believed impossible :-

1) Get many hard Brexiteers and hard Remainers to agree - that the deal is utterly unacceptable, and

2) Get me to endorse something Corbyn said at the despatch box - the deal is a disaster and needs to be withdrawn.


Oh and the irony of a pro-Remain PM having to negotiate exit, and a pro-Brexit Oppositoon leader having to publicly be pretty Remain because of party policy, hasn't escaped me.

[philehidiot]

My body language antennae were practically epileptic when she was at the dispatch box for that 3-hour ribbing earlier today. She was trying to lie and pull out stock phrases for so long that after 45 minutes she was stuttering and just searching for mindless lines to throw back which made no sense in context.

She was probably exhausted having been up all night ensuring she knew all the points of a 500+ page document, exhausted/demoralised from constant challenging questions and ribbing and just unable to keep up as she's just not really all that bright by the sounds of it.. She knows this is a deal that was going to infuriate everyone. I feel sorry for her personal situation but this is beyond personal, she needed to get it right and she has not.

[Saracen]

.... I feel sorry for her personal situation but this is beyond personal, she needed to get it right and she has not.

I don't feel sorry for her one tiny jot, mainly because it's only the future of our country at stake, and we're in this mess because of a series of calamitous misjudgments. One whopper was calling sn unnecessary election because she thought it would strengthen her hand to get a big majority, and Corbyn was such a joke. Turns out the joke is on you, Theresa.

The collosal cockup wasx the election campaign, the arrogance of taking her base for granted and running a diabolical mess of a campaign so that she couldn't evrn bring home a convincing win against "the joke".

Then, she triggered Art.50, under pressure from EU leaders, before getting all her ducks in a row, and the instant she did that, the power dynamic switched to the EU.

Then, of course, she caved in and agreed the EU sequential process for exit and future relationship. That is why, now, the backstop is critical. Had she refused point-blank on pain of a no-deal exit, we wouldn't be in this mess now. And having agreed the sequential process, she then did something totally moronic in agreeing to the general principle of the backstop for a transitory PR win, without tying down the legal language first. She put herself, and by extension the whole country, between a rock and a hard place, and allowing the Irish government to use it as leverage.

And finally, because she doesn't actually believe in Brexit, despite her fine-sounding speeches, she's allowed herself to be basically blackmailed into this aberration of a deal.

So, I don't feel sorry for her at all. I just regret the stinking midden heap of excrement her incomptence has dumped us all in. And to think, people call Boris a clown. At least he has some charm to go with it.

[Corky34]

There's an awful lot of blame deflection going on, in case people have forgotten it was Cameron who got us into this mess by calling the referendum in the first place and then having it on his toes when he lost. The former was called because a shift in the politics of the country was a threat to the Conservatives election chances and the latter he did despite promising he'd see things through even if he lost.

We're basically in this so called 'mess' because a politician put their parties own self-interests before those of the country.

(I've put mess in quotation marks because when people tried to say this would be the result of a vote to leave they were branded as fearmongers so it's not really a mess IMO it's largely what was expected)