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Thread: Legitimate Brexit Betrayal?

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    The late but legendary peterb - Onward and Upward peterb's Avatar
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    Re: Legitimate Brexit Betrayal?

    Quote Originally Posted by Corky34 View Post
    There's an awful lot of blame deflection going on, in case people have forgotten it was Cameron who got us into this mess by calling the referendum in the first place and then having it on his toes when he lost. The former was called because a shift in the politics of the country was a threat to the Conservatives election chances and the latter he did despite promising he'd see things through even if he lost.

    We're basically in this so called 'mess' because a politician put their parties own self-interests before those of the country.

    (I've put mess in quotation marks because when people tried to say this would be the result of a vote to leave they were branded as fearmongers so it's not really a mess IMO it's largely what was expected)
    But that was the only time the British people were offered a referendum on the constitutional changes in the EU that affect us. Neither John Major nor Tony Blair offered a referendum on the Maastricht or Lisbon treaties which changed the nature of the common market from a trading arrangement to “ever closer political union”.

    It was also Tony Blair who gave up the right to control immigration when the EU enlarged to 28 nations which increased immigration almost overnight and fuelled the arguments put forward by UKIP.
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    Re: Legitimate Brexit Betrayal?

    True (more or less), but that just returns us to how dysfunctional our democratic system is, a democratic system that, may i add, we want to invest with more control.

    If as you say we were not given a choice over the things you mention in the past what leads you to believe we'll be given a choice over similar things in the future, we've not (afaik) changed the system in any meaningful way.
    Last edited by Corky34; 16-11-2018 at 10:07 AM.

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    Re: Legitimate Brexit Betrayal?

    Quote Originally Posted by peterb View Post

    It was also Tony Blair who gave up the right to control immigration when the EU enlarged to 28 nations which increased immigration almost overnight and fuelled the arguments put forward by UKIP.
    Hang on, we've always had the right to track people coming in, and expel them after 3 months if they haven't got a job, or can evidence means. We chose not to exercise this. Labour and the Tories. Then we blame the EU for People 'flooding in'...

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    Re: Legitimate Brexit Betrayal?

    Sounds like a no confidence vote will be incoming - will May survive, and if not, who's her likely replacement?

    https://twitter.com/tomhfh/status/1063392666065481730

    "Tom Harwood

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    4m4 minutes ago
    More
    NEW: Steve Baker has told the ERG whatsapp group his letter count is over 48 with a dozen probables on top."
    No trees were harmed in the creation of this message. However, many electrons were displaced and terribly inconvenienced.

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    Re: Legitimate Brexit Betrayal?

    If May is the ardent Remainer that folks are suggesting why has she not just called a second referendum? And assuming that the mooted leadership challenge happens who would you have take over?

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    Re: Legitimate Brexit Betrayal?

    Anyone remember who said 'Strong and stable with me or chaos with Ed Milliband'?

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    Re: Legitimate Brexit Betrayal?

    I'm not sure May is an 'ardent remainer'. She was certainly in the remain camp, but she has said time and time again that she respects the referendum result.

    Unlike some, I don't have a jaundiced view of most politicians. I think most go into politics to make a positive difference in accordance with the wishes of their electorate. Certainly few would do it for the money. Some may do it for power and some are corrupt, but most are honourable, doing their best according to their conscience - and I think Theresa May falls into that camp (I think Jeremy Corbyn does too, although it will be a cold day in hell before I would vote for him or his party's policies).

    The withdrwal terms are never ever in a million months of Sundays going to please the leave at all costs or the remain at all costs camps - it is bound to be a compromise. Whether or not tis is the best compromise is - as we are seeing - a matter of debate.

    Could it be re-negotiated of Parliament rejects it? Possibly - the EU have much to lose of we crash out under WTO rules (rules that govern other trading relationships we have with other trading partners)

    Is now really a good time to have a new prime Minister (without a general election) or even an election where the outcome would add even more delay and uncertainty.

    One thing is clear - there is nothing we as individuals can do apart from watch on with interest/horror (depending on yor PoV and how much angst you want to cause yourself).
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    Re: Legitimate Brexit Betrayal?

    <please don't reply to this post - just read it and then carry on with the debate>

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    Re: Legitimate Brexit Betrayal?

    Quote Originally Posted by peterb View Post
    I'm not sure May is an 'ardent remainer'. She was certainly in the remain camp, but she has said time and time again that she respects the referendum result.
    That's kinda my view, but there are others who have posted in this thread who seem to be suggesting otherwise.

    For what it's worth: I think that she's a terrible Prime Minister, but at the same time... when the leadership contest happened I think she was the best on offer. The best of a shockingly poor bunch. But she won that contest, and in line with the rules of the game she's there until either she steps aside or is removed.

    And poor as I think she is, I *still* think that she's the best option which is why I'd honestly love to know who others think would do a better job of making the best of the situation for the country (rather than their bank balances, Mr Rees-Mogg et al)

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    Re: Legitimate Brexit Betrayal?

    Quote Originally Posted by peterb View Post
    Unlike some, I don't have a jaundiced view of most politicians. I think most go into politics to make a positive difference in accordance with the wishes of their electorate. Certainly few would do it for the money. Some may do it for power and some are corrupt, but most are honourable, doing their best according to their conscience - and I think Theresa May falls into that camp (I think Jeremy Corbyn does too, although it will be a cold day in hell before I would vote for him or his party's policies).
    Completely agree that most go into politics to make a positive difference however i also think they eventually become a product of their environment, and it's not just the environment within Westminster I'm talking about but the environment we the public and media have created. If i had my way I'd ban politicians from attending media training courses and somehow force them to actually answer questions.

    The situation isn't helped by the rules we've made around the media that say they have report 'news' in an impartial, neutral, and/or balanced manner as that in itself creates bias. For example until recently when the BBC reported on climate change they considered it being impartial, neutral, and/or balanced to give climate change deniers equal airtime as someone presenting scientific facts on climate change, being impartial does not mean giving someone who represents 5% of an opinion equal airtime as someone who represents 95%.

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    Re: Legitimate Brexit Betrayal?

    Quote Originally Posted by Corky34 View Post
    Completely agree that most go into politics to make a positive difference however i also think they eventually become a product of their environment, and it's not just the environment within Westminster I'm talking about but the environment we the public and media have created. If i had my way I'd ban politicians from attending media training courses and somehow force them to actually answer questions.

    The situation isn't helped by the rules we've made around the media that say they have report 'news' in an impartial, neutral, and/or balanced manner as that in itself creates bias. For example until recently when the BBC reported on climate change they considered it being impartial, neutral, and/or balanced to give climate change deniers equal airtime as someone presenting scientific facts on climate change, being impartial does not mean giving someone who represents 5% of an opinion equal airtime as someone who represents 95%.
    Reminds me of a quote:

    If someone says it’s raining, and another person says it’s dry, it’s not your job to quote them both. Your job is to look out the flipping window and find out which is true.
    This doesn't seem to happen much these days

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    Re: Legitimate Brexit Betrayal?

    A rather facetious question but isn't trying to change the result of the Conservatives leadership vote from two years ago a betrayal.

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    Re: Legitimate Brexit Betrayal?

    It'll always be problematic to say who will be the best leader with any outcome Brexit wise, since there is such division in the population and parliament. Vast swathes will always be unhappy with the PM regardless of the outcome.

    May is proving her determination to stay on and try to push this deal through; though I'm just speculating here, but maybe shes made the mistake of trying to play the same game as Cameron attempting to play within the rules, with the fact the EU will just play hardball again to protect the intergrity and "club principles" of the EU. The EU is under pressure with Italy's budget crisis(a founding member), so the default mindset for the EU at the moment is perhaps just to close ranks with regards to Brexit and keep the door open for the UK to stay in.. the UK being the second highest budget contributor etc.

    Yanis Varoufakis has been pointing out EU tactics for a while:

    https://www.theguardian.com/politics...at-theresa-may

    The "picking opponents" tactic rings a bell here.. It seems to explain what happened to the position of Brexit secretary, with the PM taking over negotitions earlier this year.

    This of course, is fair enough from the EU's perspective.. this approach is inevitable and understandable, since they want their politcal-economic structure to survive and grow etc. It is perhaps the fault of Cameron citing the need for fundamental treaty change in the EU back in 2015 (pre 2016 referendum negotiation), conveying the idea that such change was possible to a wider UK audience and then failing to deliver for many.. although that said maybe some change was possible to a degree.

    After May became PM in July 2016 the EU Comission did approach her offering her talks, potentially offering a better deal to keep the UK in the EU, but May turned them down. The proposals for that deal are probably waiting in the wings somewhere in Brussels, maybe to suddenly explode on to the scene, should a second referenedum ever become a reality or maybe even just a possiblity to influence affairs.

    I'm not advocating any particular politcal talking head btw, since there is no need to make a decision e.g through an election or referendum at the moment.
    Last edited by The Hand; 16-11-2018 at 08:58 PM. Reason: correction

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    Re: Legitimate Brexit Betrayal?

    Yeah, I'm just wondering if those who have made the point a number of times about May being the wrong person for the job had someone else in mind.

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    Re: Legitimate Brexit Betrayal?

    Quote Originally Posted by The Hand View Post
    the UK being the second highest budget contributor etc.
    Fourth highest, Germany, France, and Italy in that order are the highest followed by the UK, at least going on the total national contributions financial report for 2017 it is.

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    Re: Legitimate Brexit Betrayal?

    Quote Originally Posted by Corky34 View Post
    Fourth highest, Germany, France, and Italy in that order are the highest followed by the UK, at least going on the total national contributions financial report for 2017 it is.
    Still a significant contibutor either way and one the EU would rather not lose.

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