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Thread: Legitimate Brexit Betrayal?

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    Re: Legitimate Brexit Betrayal?

    Quote Originally Posted by opel80uk View Post
    You were never gonna get that. You were either gonna get a no-deal Brexit, and all that entails, or a fudge, as looks like the case. People who were happy to go ahead with a vaguely worded referendum, with no clear indication of what voting leave would actually mean, in a country where referendum campaigns are not common place and have none of the safeguards found in countries that are used to them such as Ireland or Switzerland to precisely avoid this kind of sentiment after a vote, can't now complain that they didn't get exactly what they voted for.
    The hope was that the existing relationship of the UK with the EU should ease matters in arranging a free trade deal without having to go out with no deal and then start from scratch. Pragmatism would hope so. But then the EU is more ideological than pragmatic, so no-deal was a big possibility. At this point, it looks like no-deal is the only option.
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    Re: Legitimate Brexit Betrayal?

    Quote Originally Posted by Corky34 View Post
    The only thing is it wasn't, was it! In your other thread about an EU army you seem to be saying, to paraphrase, we shouldn't trust politicians when they tell us there's not going to be an EU army because they lie, yes? However in this thread you seem to be saying it's a betrayal because i was told X, Y, and Z.

    On the one hand you seem to be saying don't trust them re: an EU army, and on the other that you trusted them when they said there'd be a move away from EU control and the freedom to make our own laws and a return to closer, more accountable government. Perhaps I've misinterpreted what you've been implying though as it comes across as some politicians should be trusted and others should not.



    No it's really not, it's knowing politicians say anything to win your vote, they lie, they're deceitful, untrustworthy, and even when it's written down they'll try to squirm out of it if you let them.

    It's one of the reasons i thought voting to leave was a bad idea, not because i thought leaving the EU was necessarily a bad idea if implemented properly (like the Flexit proposal from the Leave alliance) but because i knew we'd be handing the government a blank check and they had no idea what Leaving the EU involved.
    I answered you on the other thread, no need to repeat questions back and forth, I think. As I asked, what other option is there? The argument that lies and deceit are a bad thing, so let's go ahead and remain in a larger, more distant, less accountable government where we'll see more lies and deceit makes no sense to me. If that state of politics is bad on a local and national level, then it's logically worse with an international, less accountable level thrown in as well.

    As you've pointed out, the democratic process would call for people to 'vote out' those they're unhappy with in one way or another. That's exactly what Brexit is, and the only option on the table.
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    Re: Legitimate Brexit Betrayal?

    Quote Originally Posted by Galant View Post
    The hope was that the existing relationship of the UK with the EU should ease matters in arranging a free trade deal without having to go out with no deal and then start from scratch. Pragmatism would hope so. But then the EU is more ideological than pragmatic, so no-deal was a big possibility. At this point, it looks like no-deal is the only option.
    But the whole raison d'etre given for the EU existing in its current form used by the leave campaign, not to mention by some leave posters here, is that the EU wants a Federal States of Europe and to achieve that is willing to encroach on the sovereignty of member states, to the detriment of its citizens. If you believe that to be the case, why would you then believe that the EU, which is in this instance is the senior negotiating party, would make it easy for the UK to negotiate a free trade deal? It’s like me wanting to divorce my wife because I believe her to behave in an entirely unreasonable way, and then me being surprised that she’s acting unreasonably during the actual divorce proceedings, with the basis of my surprise being that we were once married.

    What all of this is, is a not-so-subtle attempt to deflect blame by leave voters/supporters for mess the UK is now in onto the EU. And furthermore, and what I find most depressing, is that I suspect that many of those leave campaigners & voters knew that this is exactly the sort of deal the UK would end up with, and found that a perfectly acceptable price to pay.

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    Re: Legitimate Brexit Betrayal?

    So we'll exit without a deal and can go trade with whoever we want, with a two-fingered salute to the EU.... and they're raising a European Army to provide the force with which they plan to stop us?

    Something like that?

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    Re: Legitimate Brexit Betrayal?

    Quote Originally Posted by Galant View Post
    I answered you on the other thread, no need to repeat questions back and forth, I think. As I asked, what other option is there? The argument that lies and deceit are a bad thing, so let's go ahead and remain in a larger, more distant, less accountable government where we'll see more lies and deceit makes no sense to me. If that state of politics is bad on a local and national level, then it's logically worse with an international, less accountable level thrown in as well.

    As you've pointed out, the democratic process would call for people to 'vote out' those they're unhappy with in one way or another. That's exactly what Brexit is, and the only option on the table.
    The problem is the UK system is demonstrably and objectively worse when it comes to lies and deceit, being less accountable, and more undemocratic. I don't see how distance effects things other than politicians having to travel further. That's not always been the case with the EU but it's improved a lot in recent years and given the choice I'd scrap how we do democracy and replace it with something very similar to what the EU has constructed.

    As for what other option or how we fix it, short of tearing the whole thing down and starting again, i don't know.

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    Re: Legitimate Brexit Betrayal?

    Quote Originally Posted by opel80uk View Post
    But the whole raison d'etre given for the EU existing in its current form used by the leave campaign, not to mention by some leave posters here, is that the EU wants a Federal States of Europe and to achieve that is willing to encroach on the sovereignty of member states, to the detriment of its citizens. If you believe that to be the case, why would you then believe that the EU, which is in this instance is the senior negotiating party, would make it easy for the UK to negotiate a free trade deal? It’s like me wanting to divorce my wife because I believe her to behave in an entirely unreasonable way, and then me being surprised that she’s acting unreasonably during the actual divorce proceedings, with the basis of my surprise being that we were once married.

    What all of this is, is a not-so-subtle attempt to deflect blame by leave voters/supporters for mess the UK is now in onto the EU. And furthermore, and what I find most depressing, is that I suspect that many of those leave campaigners & voters knew that this is exactly the sort of deal the UK would end up with, and found that a perfectly acceptable price to pay.
    Top half yes, bottom half no.

    That was the reality of the EU, meaning a good trade deal would be problematic - but there was some hope it might just work out. If it didn't however, the expectation was that the UK walks away and makes use of its new found freedom to pursue other trade deals etc. and figure out an EU trade deal down the line. My blame, right now, is on the UK government for either taking a foolish approach to the negotiations, or worse, for perhaps choosing to do the minimum required for a 'Brexit' while looping back around to full EU membership asap - throwing away the UK's ability to do any other trade deals in the process.
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    Re: Legitimate Brexit Betrayal?

    Honestly, that's the hope. But if this goes through as is, we forfeit that right in large part, by tying ourselves again to the EU rules... I can't even believe I'm typing this.
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    Re: Legitimate Brexit Betrayal?

    Quote Originally Posted by Galant View Post
    Honestly, that's the hope. But if this goes through as is, we forfeit that right in large part, by tying ourselves again to the EU rules... I can't even believe I'm typing this.
    I can. That lot aren't fit to manage a jolly in a brewing establishment nevermind run a country or negotiate something as complicated as this. BoJo knew it and did his utmost to avoid carrying the can. Cameron knew it and quit while he was behind. May was naive enough to think she could pull a rabbit out of not so much a hat as a blackhole, and the rest of the sane world has been watching a car crash in slow motion ever since. Annoying as, like most people on here, I'm a passenger in said car, and I don't much like crashing and burning.

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    Re: Legitimate Brexit Betrayal?

    I always try and read opposing views online to puncture my bubble, but this is just too weird.

    Maintaining logistics chains and supply lines a betrayal ? Hoping that things will just work out ?
    Society's to blame,
    Or possibly Atari.

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    Re: Legitimate Brexit Betrayal?

    Quote Originally Posted by Phage View Post
    I always try and read opposing views online to puncture my bubble, but this is just too weird.

    Maintaining logistics chains and supply lines a betrayal ? Hoping that things will just work out ?
    Nope. Seeing this as basically the minimum for an ever closer EU deal after a Brexit setback. That's the concern. EU ministers have come out saying essentially that, and honestly, what is the expectation here - that anything that couldn't get negotiated up to now will be with a bit more time? Hardly. There's no incentive for the EU to give more away. Instead, it looks like a stitch up. A last minute, we-have-no-choice deal, which morphs into a permanent status and the road back to the EU. Either that or quite possible the worst negotiating ever on this scale.
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    Re: Legitimate Brexit Betrayal?

    @Galant, I wouldn't worry to much as the chances of the agreement getting through parliament are probably very low.

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    Re: Legitimate Brexit Betrayal?

    My views on this are :-

    a) waiting to see what the impact of the actual (so far, secret) deal are not the press specukation

    b) when we do find out, I will be stunned if it doesn't make me incsndescently furious with the two-faced, treacherous bitch that negotisted it,

    c) but then, I never expected much else from a remainer MP

    d) I won't be saying much more because I have enough blood pressure issues as it is, and there's unfortunately laws preventing me saying what zi think ought happen next.

    e) "leaving" does not mean signing an exit deal that, as part of its terms, signs us right back up for the worst bits of what we were leaving.

    f) I sincerrly hope that, if as currently reported, this deal dies in the Commons. The real question, as that seems very lkely, is ..... what then? And that's rhetorical as far as this thread and I are concerned because I'm no interest in further utterly circular and totally pointless arguing about hypotheticals.

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    Re: Legitimate Brexit Betrayal?

    I can only assume that all of those who say that a vote to leave the EU is also authority to leave the customs union and single market think the government should have taken us into the Euro and Schengen if we'd have voted remain?

    After all, if leaving means having no part of the EU remaining must mean having every part of it. Right?

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    Re: Legitimate Brexit Betrayal?

    Quote Originally Posted by Saracen View Post
    My views on this are :-

    a) waiting to see what the impact of the actual (so far, secret) deal are not the press specukation

    b) when we do find out, I will be stunned if it doesn't make me incsndescently furious with the two-faced, treacherous bitch that negotisted it,

    c) but then, I never expected much else from a remainer MP

    d) I won't be saying much more because I have enough blood pressure issues as it is, and there's unfortunately laws preventing me saying what zi think ought happen next.

    e) "leaving" does not mean signing an exit deal that, as part of its terms, signs us right back up for the worst bits of what we were leaving.

    f) I sincerrly hope that, if as currently reported, this deal dies in the Commons. The real question, as that seems very lkely, is ..... what then? And that's rhetorical as far as this thread and I are concerned because I'm no interest in further utterly circular and totally pointless arguing about hypotheticals.
    I think JRMs letter to Tory MPs summs it up nicely.

    I'm holding back until I get the full details but if I was for leaving I would be saying this is a worse outcome than staying. It's the worst of all worlds and I can only imagine (assuming her intentions are the best for the UK) the EU has her over a barrel and she thinks that doing this will mean we keep our money, go down the no deal route and she'll sacrifice her career for the sake of the country.

    If what has come out is true, these people are lunatics. There is no upside to this, it's not a compromise, it's a capitulation.

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    Re: Legitimate Brexit Betrayal?

    No-deal isn't worth thinking about.

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    Re: Legitimate Brexit Betrayal?

    All I'll say is this about Theresa May right now:

    I was just going to put the first few lines of this in but frankly, it just gets more and more relevant to our current situation as you go along...

    Dante's Inferno, Canto XVII. On Fraud and Deciet.

    "Behold the monster with the pointed tail,
    Who cleaves the hills, and breaketh walls and weapons.
    Inhale the breath which makes the whole world wail."
    Thus unto me my Guide began to say,
    And beckoned him that he should come to shore,
    Near to the confine of the trodden marble;
    And that uncleanly image of deceit
    Came up and thrust ashore its head and bust,
    But on the border did not drag its tail.
    The face was as the face of a just man,
    Its semblance outwardly was so benign,
    And of a serpent all the trunk beside.
    Two paws it had, hairy unto the armpits;
    The back, and breast, and both the sides it had
    Depicted o'er with nooses and with shields.
    With colours more, groundwork or broidery
    Never in cloth did Tartars make nor Turks,
    Nor were such tissues by Arachne laid.
    As sometimes wherries lie upon the shore,
    That part are in the water, part on land;
    And as among the guzzling Germans there,
    The beaver plants himself to wage his war;
    So that vile monster lay upon the border,
    Which is of stone, and shutteth in the sand.
    His tail was wholly quivering in the void,
    Contorting upwards the envenomed fork,
    That in the guise of scorpion armed its point.
    The Guide said: "Now perforce must turn aside
    Our way a little, even to that beast
    Malevolent, that yonder coucheth him."
    We therefore on the right side descended,
    And made ten steps upon the outer verge,
    Completely to avoid the sand and flame;
    And after we are come to him, I see
    A little farther off upon the sand
    A people sitting near the hollow place.
    Then said to me the Master: "So that full
    Experience of this round thou bear away,
    Now go and see what their condition is.
    There let thy conversation be concise;
    Till thou returnest I will speak with him,
    That he concede to us his stalwart shoulders."
    Thus farther still upon the outermost
    Head of that seventh circle all alone
    I went, where sat the melancholy folk.
    Out of their eyes was gushing forth their woe;
    This way, that way, they helped them with their hands
    Now from the flames and now from the hot soil.
    Not otherwise in summer do the dogs,
    Now with the foot, now with the muzzle, when
    By fleas, or flies, or gadflies, they are bitten.
    When I had turned mine eyes upon the faces
    Of some, on whom the dolorous fire is falling,
    Not one of them I knew; but I perceived
    That from the neck of each there hung a pouch,
    Which certain colour had, and certain blazon;
    And thereupon it seems their eyes are feeding.
    And as I gazing round me come among them,
    Upon a yellow pouch I azure saw
    That had the face and posture of a lion.
    Proceeding then the current of my sight,
    Another of them saw I, red as blood,
    Display a goose more white than butter is.
    And one, who with an azure sow and gravid
    Emblazoned had his little pouch of white,
    Said unto me: "What dost thou in this moat?
    Now get thee gone; and since thou'rt still alive,
    Know that a neighbour of mine, Vitaliano,
    Will have his seat here on my left-hand side.
    A Paduan am I with these Florentines;
    Full many a time they thunder in mine ears,
    Exclaiming, 'Come the sovereign cavalier,
    He who shall bring the satchel with three goats;'"
    Then twisted he his mouth, and forth he thrust
    His tongue, like to an ox that licks its nose.
    And fearing lest my longer stay might vex
    Him who had warned me not to tarry long,
    Backward I turned me from those weary souls.
    I found my Guide, who had already mounted
    Upon the back of that wild animal,
    And said to me: "Now be both strong and bold.
    Now we descend by stairways such as these;
    Mount thou in front, for I will be midway,
    So that the tail may have no power to harm thee."
    Such as he is who has so near the ague
    Of quartan that his nails are blue already,
    And trembles all, but looking at the shade;
    Even such became I at those proffered words;
    But shame in me his menaces produced,
    Which maketh servant strong before good master.
    I seated me upon those monstrous shoulders;
    I wished to say, and yet the voice came not
    As I believed, "Take heed that thou embrace me."
    But he, who other times had rescued me
    In other peril, soon as I had mounted,
    Within his arms encircled and sustained me,
    And said: "Now, Geryon, bestir thyself;
    The circles large, and the descent be little;
    Think of the novel burden which thou hast."
    Even as the little vessel shoves from shore,
    Backward, still backward, so he thence withdrew;
    And when he wholly felt himself afloat,
    There where his breast had been he turned his tail,
    And that extended like an eel he moved,
    And with his paws drew to himself the air.
    A greater fear I do not think there was
    What time abandoned Phaeton the reins,
    Whereby the heavens, as still appears, were scorched;
    Nor when the wretched Icarus his flanks
    Felt stripped of feathers by the melting wax,
    His father crying, "An ill way thou takest!"
    Than was my own, when I perceived myself
    On all sides in the air, and saw extinguished
    The sight of everything but of the monster.
    Onward he goeth, swimming slowly, slowly;
    Wheels and descends, but I perceive it only
    By wind upon my face and from below.
    I heard already on the right the whirlpool
    Making a horrible crashing under us;
    Whence I thrust out my head with eyes cast downward.
    Then was I still more fearful of the abyss;
    Because I fires beheld, and heard laments,
    Whereat I, trembling, all the closer cling.
    I saw then, for before I had not seen it,
    The turning and descending, by great horrors
    That were approaching upon divers sides.
    As falcon who has long been on the wing,
    Who, without seeing either lure or bird,
    Maketh the falconer say, "Ah me, thou stoopest,"
    Descendeth weary, whence he started swiftly,
    Thorough a hundred circles, and alights
    Far from his master, sullen and disdainful;
    Even thus did Geryon place us on the bottom,
    Close to the bases of the rough-hewn rock,
    And being disencumbered of our persons,
    He sped away as arrow from the string.

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