Legitimate Brexit Betrayal?

[Galant]

Just to double-down on contentious Brexit threads - another significant Brexit story is unfolding rapidly right now with potentially devastating consequences.

May has revealed to her cabinet the details of a supposed withdrawal agreement and if reporting on it is accurate, the whole thing makes me sick to my stomach. Literally. Of course, all of this has to pass through parliament and so could be stopped, but they very idea that something like this, something so incredibly irresponsible, not to mention two-faced and treacherous, could even get put forward is disheartening and disturbing in a way I've personally never seen or felt before - at least in British politics.

As described it's a far worse scenario than either a full remain or full Brexit option would be, and represents either utterly incompetent government, or a complete and total betrayal of the referendum in seeking to find any path, no matter the cost, to lead Britain back into the EU. I think the latter is far and above the most likely reality and it's genuinely sickening.

https://www.thetimes.co.uk/edition/n...deal-ks9frvbwz

[kalniel]

I don't recall the referendum specifying what kind of brexit was to be pursued so I don't know how it can be a betrayal.

[spacein_vader]

Just to double-down on contentious Brexit threads - another significant Brexit story is unfolding rapidly right now with potentially devastating consequences.

May has revealed to her cabinet the details of a supposed withdrawal agreement and if reporting on it is accurate, the whole thing makes me sick to my stomach. Literally. Of course, all of this has to pass through parliament and so could be stopped, but they very idea that something like this, something so incredibly irresponsible, not to mention two-faced and treacherous, could even get put forward is disheartening and disturbing in a way I've personally never seen or felt before - at least in British politics.

As described it's a far worse scenario than either a full remain or full Brexit option would be, and represents either utterly incompetent government, or a complete and total betrayal of the referendum in seeking to find any path, no matter the cost, to lead Britain back into the EU. I think the latter is far and above the most likely reality and it's genuinely sickening.

https://www.thetimes.co.uk/edition/n...deal-ks9frvbwz

I'm keeping my powder dry until it's published, though it does amuse me that both remain & brexit supporting MPs are condemning a document they've not seen yet.

I would remind everyone however that the wording of the referendum question was:

"Should the United Kingdom remain a member of the European Union or leave the European Union?"

The wording of the box that the majority of voters ticked was:

"Leave the European Union."

As long as any exit agreement means that the UK is no longer a member of the European Union afterwards it satisfies the result of the referendum.

[Galant]

Really guys? This isn't parliament, we can speak honestly.

Letter over spirit.

If the leaks are accurate we're talking about a deal that betrays the Conservative manifesto, the majority of May's promises, and most importantly, fails to regain British control over its own laws from the EU.

This honestly smacks of spite. The leaked deal would put the British in a truly worse position - practically the worst position - and I don't see how anyone can be happy with that.

I would hope anyone, on either side of the issue, would call out the government on how they've apparently handled this.

[peterb]

Leaks are usually selective and pounced on by whoever sees them as confirming a position, so until the full details are revealed its hard to comment.

My understanding is that this is a withdrawal deal, and paves the way for a future trade agreements - so in some ways it may be a half way house - we leave, regaining some control (fisheries, agriculture among others) but remain tied t others (like the customs union) until those details are hammered out in a trade deal.

The leavers say that means we are rule takers without any say (for a period to be determined) - the remainers think... well not sure what there position is except that they want a second referendum which they hope would reverse the original. However we have probably passed a point of no return as we would be unlikely to return on the same terms that we had when we left.

William Hague was quite good on R4 this morning - anything this complex will involve compromise - the important thing is to take the long view/bigger picture.

[Corky34]

If the leaks are accurate we're talking about a deal that betrays the Conservative manifesto, the majority of May's promises, and most importantly, fails to regain British control over its own laws from the EU.

The thing is regain British control over its own laws from the EU was not on the ballot paper, if you don't like what's being proposed then you shouldn't have voted for it.

And before anyone says, but we were told X, Y, or Z, I'll remind you that these are politicians were talking about here, the least trusted profession (iirc) in the UK, the same group people were bemoaning as the out of touch Westminster elite three years ago, the same group who wanted you to vote on something without putting what you were voting for in writing until almost a year afterwards.

[kalniel]

I think just about everyone is calling out the government on how they've handled the entire brexit thing. But rock and hard place and all that...

[opel80uk]

Really guys? This isn't parliament, we can speak honestly.

Letter over spirit.

If the leaks are accurate we're talking about a deal that betrays the Conservative manifesto, the majority of May's promises, and most importantly, fails to regain British control over its own laws from the EU.

This honestly smacks of spite. The leaked deal would put the British in a truly worse position - practically the worst position - and I don't see how anyone can be happy with that.

I would hope anyone, on either side of the issue, would call out the government on how they've apparently handled this.

They've handled it pretty much exactly as I expected them to - incompetently. From the absurd offering of the referendum in the first place to appease Tory voters thinking of voting UKIP to the actual referendum and its, at best, vague wording; from the outright lies of said referendum to almost every Government action regarding Brexit since, up to and including this so-called deal, it has been one big omnishambles. But I have to ask, what else were you expecting?

[Galant]

Honestly, right now, if things are as they are suggested, I struggle to believe this is incompetence. It is, in my mind, indicative of a complete lack of intention to ever see the process through and ultimately a collaboration with the EU to figure out a path back into the EU as quickly as possible.

I was expecting a British government to actually honour the Brexit vote and find as favourable a path for relations with the EU as possible while regaining control of laws and pursuing new paths of trade and relationship that a Brexit permits. I was hoping for a bit more a freer, pragmatic, optimistic and independent UK more along the lines of the USA (Trump and recent politics etc. not withstanding) rather than further integration with an ideological, yet corrupt, EU.

I am, in general, for smaller government and greater individual responsibility and freedom. I was hoping to see a UK stand on its own two feet a bit more, both on the national and individual level.

[Galant]

The thing is regain British control over its own laws from the EU was not on the ballot paper, if you don't like what's being proposed then you shouldn't have voted for it.

And before anyone says, but we were told X, Y, or Z, I'll remind you that these are politicians were talking about here, the least trusted profession (iirc) in the UK, the same group people were bemoaning as the out of touch Westminster elite three years ago, the same group who wanted you to vote on something without putting what you were voting for in writing until almost a year afterwards.

Whilst there can be a discussion about exactly how the referendum could, maybe, have been drafted, and there's an argument to be made that it couldn't have been present any other way than it was, it's also true to say that the general notion of what Brexit represented - a move away from EU control and the freedom to make our own laws and a return to closer, more accountable government, was clear. Anyone who wanted to understand it could. The details of what would happen going forward were of course a matter of discussion, but to say that because the referendum was a general proposal everyone should accept any and every result of the withdrawal process is disingenuous.

[Smudger]

EU Control that we had a part in and had some say over?

[opel80uk]

Honestly, right now, if things are as they are suggested, I struggle to believe this is incompetence. It is, in my mind, indicative of a complete lack of intention to ever see the process through and ultimately a collaboration with the EU to figure out a path back into the EU as quickly as possible.

I was expecting a British government to actually honour the Brexit vote and find as favourable a path for relations with the EU as possible while regaining control of laws and pursuing new paths of trade and relationship that a Brexit permits. I was hoping for a bit more a freer, pragmatic, optimistic and independent UK more along the lines of the USA (Trump and recent politics etc. not withstanding) rather than further integration with an ideological, yet corrupt, EU.

I am, in general, for smaller government and greater individual responsibility and freedom. I was hoping to see a UK stand on its own two feet a bit more, both on the national and individual level.

You were never gonna get that. You were either gonna get a no-deal Brexit, and all that entails, or a fudge, as looks like the case. People who were happy to go ahead with a vaguely worded referendum, with no clear indication of what voting leave would actually mean, in a country where referendum campaigns are not common place and have none of the safeguards found in countries that are used to them such as Ireland or Switzerland to precisely avoid this kind of sentiment after a vote, can't now complain that they didn't get exactly what they voted for.

[Corky34]

Whilst there can be a discussion about exactly how the referendum could, maybe, have been drafted, and there's an argument to be made that it couldn't have been present any other way than it was, it's also true to say that the general notion of what Brexit represented - a move away from EU control and the freedom to make our own laws and a return to closer, more accountable government, was clear. Anyone who wanted to understand it could.

The only thing is it wasn't, was it! In your other thread about an EU army you seem to be saying, to paraphrase, we shouldn't trust politicians when they tell us there's not going to be an EU army because they lie, yes? However in this thread you seem to be saying it's a betrayal because i was told X, Y, and Z.

On the one hand you seem to be saying don't trust them re: an EU army, and on the other that you trusted them when they said there'd be a move away from EU control and the freedom to make our own laws and a return to closer, more accountable government. Perhaps I've misinterpreted what you've been implying though as it comes across as some politicians should be trusted and others should not.

The details of what would happen going forward were of course a matter of discussion, but to say that because the referendum was a general proposal everyone should accept any and every result of the withdrawal process is disingenuous.

No it's really not, it's knowing politicians say anything to win your vote, they lie, they're deceitful, untrustworthy, and even when it's written down they'll try to squirm out of it if you let them.

It's one of the reasons i thought voting to leave was a bad idea, not because i thought leaving the EU was necessarily a bad idea if implemented properly (like the Flexit proposal from the Leave alliance) but because i knew we'd be handing the government a blank check and they had no idea what Leaving the EU involved.

[Ttaskmaster]

Just to double-down on contentious Brexit threads - another significant Brexit story is unfolding rapidly right now with potentially devastating consequences.

"Want to read more? Register with a few details to continue reading this article"
Only thing I can see is the potential devastation to whatever personal data they require from me upon registration...

Can you give me a short summary of the article and exactly how it betrays us?

[atemporal]

"Want to read more? Register with a few details to continue reading this article"
Only thing I can see is the potential devastation to whatever personal data they require from me upon registration...

Can you give me a short summary of the article and exactly how it betrays us?

Aye, as our good friend and forebear would put it:

[Galant]

"Want to read more? Register with a few details to continue reading this article"
Only thing I can see is the potential devastation to whatever personal data they require from me upon registration...

Can you give me a short summary of the article and exactly how it betrays us?

https://www.politico.eu/article/brus...customs-union/

Then on the NI side of things, there are apparently some special provisions looking like they'll have NI working differently to the rest of the Union. Something the DUP are saying they will not accept and will thus vote against the deal.