Great Leaders - who are your favourites?

[Zak33]

In any walk of life, and from any era of history... who do you consider to be the greatest leaders?

[g8ina]

Lincoln - great president, AND vampire hunter !

[wazzickle]

Pretty much no-one. I dislike idol worship in general, and in all of these cases, they're humans with weaknesses that are wrong about certain things and are often horrible people on a personal level. This is how cults start. Also, one mans terrorist is another mans freedom fighter. Pretty sure you could find lots of people in this forum who love a bit of Thatcher or Churchill, but then go to another forum and they'll be horrified by the thought of it, and they're more into the Gandhi and Mandela. I suppose if you put a gun to my head and asked for an answer it would be Mandela. But even he was a flawed man.

[SeriousSam]

Æthelflæd

[g8ina]

Good call, she was pretty spectacular

[peterb]

Pretty much no-one. I dislike idol worship in general, and in all of these cases, they're humans with weaknesses that are wrong about certain things and are often horrible people on a personal level. This is how cults start. Also, one mans terrorist is another mans freedom fighter. Pretty sure you could find lots of people in this forum who love a bit of Thatcher or Churchill, but then go to another forum and they'll be horrified by the thought of it, and they're more into the Gandhi and Mandela. I suppose if you put a gun to my head and asked for an answer it would be Mandela. But even he was a flawed man.

You don’t have to flawless to be a great leader - in some cases it’s the flaws that make for great leadership - under the right circumstances. Churchill was a great wartime leader, but not so in peacetime.

Hitler was an effective (if misguided) leader in pre-war Germany, but (fortunately) a disastrous leader in wartime.

(And that is not an excuse, justification or any sense of condoning the brutal acts that prewar Germany did)

[wazzickle]

You don’t have to flawless to be a great leader - in some cases it’s the flaws that make for great leadership - under the right circumstances. Churchill was a great wartime leader, but not so in peacetime.

Hitler was an effective (if misguided) leader in pre-war Germany, but (fortunately) a disastrous leader in wartime.

(And that is not an excuse, justification or any sense of condoning the brutal acts that prewar Germany did)

I changed my mind. Godwin was a great leader.

How is it that the flaws make for great leadership exactly?

[Terbinator]

Sir Alex Ferguson

[Galant]

Lincoln - great president, AND vampire hunter !

Ooh Lincoln, good one.

Does William Wilberforce count? He wasn't a national leader but he was an MP.

[peterb]

I changed my mind. Godwin was a great leader.

How is it that the flaws make for great leadership exactly?

Well, it depends what you regard as a flaw, but some leaders lack empathy and are very task oriented to the exclusion of the needs of the individual. There is also some evidence that good leaders may have psychopathic or sociopathic tendencies (Hitler again is an extreme example).

But the fact that someone may be flawed (for example adulterous behaviour - if you regard that as a flaw) doesn’t rule out being a good leaderer (but being a bit frivolous you could argue that they are good at leading lovers to their beds)

Thatcher was a good leader, but was stubborn, some may say arrogant and a strong sense of self belief - qualities need when she came to power, but ultimately lead to her downfall - so a leader with flaws that at the right time and circumstances propelled her to leadership, but lead to her undoing.

[TeePee]

Thomas Jefferson. Inventor of the swivel chair.

[wazzickle]

Above picture doesn't include the bit about slaves being worth 3/5ths of a slaveowner.

Well, it depends what you regard as a flaw, but some leaders lack empathy and are very task oriented to the exclusion of the needs of the individual. There is also some evidence that good leaders may have psychopathic or sociopathic tendencies (Hitler again is an extreme example).

But the fact that someone may be flawed (for example adulterous behaviour - if you regard that as a flaw) doesn’t rule out being a good leaderer (but being a bit frivolous you could argue that they are good at leading lovers to their beds)

Thatcher was a good leader, but was stubborn, some may say arrogant and a strong sense of self belief - qualities need when she came to power, but ultimately lead to her downfall - so a leader with flaws that at the right time and circumstances propelled her to leadership, but lead to her undoing.

Thatcher wasn't a great leader as she accelerated the poverty of swathes of the north, commenced a trend of selling off public assets, deregulated the economy, and pushed forward ugly neoliberalism. While she may have united sections of the country when she came to be elected, she's without doubt the most hated british politician of the 20th century. Highly flawed and the first to be struck off the list of 'great leaders'.

Churchills' murderous history in India & Kenya, buffoonery in the UK before becoming elected etc are not widely reported by a jingoistic press or a school history syllabus that likes to whitewash our history. Yeah yeah 'fight them on the beaches' etc. In part he looked much better because his predecessor was so toothless. I don't think he's worthy of any hero worship.

[spacein_vader]

Steve Jobs *hides*

[hb904460]

Alexander III of Macedon - undefeated in battle and founder of many cities

[peterb]

Above picture doesn't include the bit about slaves being worth 3/5ths of a slaveowner.



Thatcher wasn't a great leader as she accelerated the poverty of swathes of the north, commenced a trend of selling off public assets, deregulated the economy, and pushed forward ugly neoliberalism. While she may have united sections of the country when she came to be elected, she's without doubt the most hated british politician of the 20th century. Highly flawed and the first to be struck off the list of 'great leaders'.

Churchills' murderous history in India & Kenya, buffoonery in the UK before becoming elected etc are not widely reported by a jingoistic press or a school history syllabus that likes to whitewash our history. Yeah yeah 'fight them on the beaches' etc. In part he looked much better because his predecessor was so toothless. I don't think he's worthy of any hero worship.

I think you you are conflating the concept of 'greatness as a leader' with what the leader did.

You might not agree with what either of those people did, but the fact remains that Churchill was a very effective leader in wartime regardless of his past and Thatcher was an effective leader in driving through some much needed reform in the country at the time she was elected - maybe because she followed a toothless PM. The fact that she took those reforms too far doesn't detract from her leadership qualities.

[Ozaron]

Urho Kekkonen, probably.
Modest guy doing a good job during difficult times for the benefit of others. Supposedly entertaining, and has a great name. What more could you want.