The two are not mutually exclusive.
The two are not mutually exclusive.
Still, life must be a lot better now as you've just spent over £1000 on a new gaming computer https://forums.hexus.net/pc-hardware...ml#post4050668
"In a perfect world... spammers would get caught, go to jail, and share a cell with many men who have enlarged their penises, taken Viagra and are looking for a new relationship."
I feel for your situation, but would just point out that whike, as you say, a 'no deal' exit could mean that, it also "could" improve her chances of UK immigration clearance.
So far, about all we know about post-exit immigration rules is that they'll be determined in Westminster rather than at least partially by EU treaty. That's part of the "sovereignty" thing.
It' s at least plausible that, if EU citizen's chances and non-EU cutizen's chances of getting UK immigrant status are equalised, then any reduction in EU citizens chances implies, via a level playing field, an increase in a Ukrainian citizen's chances. Asuming you both wanted to come back here.
What must be truly horrible is the uncertainty of not knowing how either of you will be viewed, in Spain, after a no deal exit.
It's no secret that I'm firmly in the Brexut camp, but among everyone I know that feels similarly, there is NO antipathy towards EU citizens, or indeed any other immigrants, living here .... legally.
And even if there's a no-deal exit, I can't think of a single good reason why the two sides, UK and EU, can't at least reach a side-deal to mutually protect each other's existing citizens living in the other side. To do so would seem to be pointlessly petty, vindictive and just downright nasty, for no reason.
It is not, after all, the fault of any of those citizens that, in big picture terms, the EU wanrs "ever-closer integration", a US of E or whatever we call it, and the UK doesn't.
I guess as a Brexiteer, that means no card, then? Good job, then, that I gave up sending cards about 20 years ago, and actively sought to stop anyone sendjng me cards even earlier.
Ditto presents.
But if I did want a Christmas present, it'd be that we could get on with Brexit with a lot more lught and far less heat, than the lasy couple of years.
What would no-deal mean for me? Far too soon to tell, because it depends on whether there's rancour or not.
A good no-deal means we simply leave, and return to the status of an independent 3rd-party country, and a substantial economy, that happens to have already strong ties in many areas, from security, to trade to culture, with the EU.
There is no reason why future relations cannot have a considerable degree of mutually beneficial goodwill provided
a) the UK doesn't ecpect to leave and retain the benefits we had from being in, and
b) the EU, especially the Commission, doesn't seek to be obstructive and punitive for having the cheek to leave.
We should be able to work together, because it's mutually beneficial, in a respectful way, where the EU respects our independence and the UK respects that membership perks, like the single matket, are for members, nit ex-members,
Do that, and even a no-deal brexit doesn't need to be antagonistic. And mutual recognition of each sides ex-pats is a good start.
But I'm far from confident any exit, deal or no deal, will be done in a spirit of mutual respect. And if not, well only time will tell what no deal means for me, beyond that I would certainly react to an antagonistic attitude from the EU by being, in as far any any individual can, as antagonistic as I can right back. That would include, for instance, breaking the habit of several decades of buying German cars and boycotting, wherever possible, EU products, and also never setting foot in an EU country again .... several of which I would badly miss. But if it's a nasty exit, so be it. Wouldn't be my choice, but then, I'm not running Brexit.
Ukraine is not part of the EU. I don't see how Brexit would affect j1979 , apart from his choice to stay in Spain.
j1979 (24-12-2018)
"In a perfect world... spammers would get caught, go to jail, and share a cell with many men who have enlarged their penises, taken Viagra and are looking for a new relationship."
Unless I misunderstand j1979, as follows :-
- currently, j1979 and therefore his non-EU wife live in Spain, by virtue of his EU rights as a Brit citizen, while UK is in EU.,
- following Brexit, esp. no-deal, UK citizens might lose EU residency rights they currently have, and
- while as a Brit, j1979 has a right to return here, that doesn't necessarily apply to Mrs 1979, who (as I understand it) is neither a UK nor EU citizen and would therefore require a VISA to get into the UK, which has proven tricky so far, and possibly even to stay in Spain, which might mean ...
- he has to come back here, and
- she might have to return to part of Ukraine now annexed by force by Russia.
And that is a horrible degree of uncertainty to be facing.
Currently, given May's 585-page deal, their situation ought to be stable as it currently is, but if no deal ..... all bets are off.
j1979 (24-12-2018)
Yes, so basically after my wife was told to leave the UK, our options were to move to another EU country where I am not a citizen (but to become a resident).
Under these circumstances my wife can stay in that EU country, provided that I got either a job (within 3 months of arrival), or enough funds for private healthcare and can be self supportive.
To live in the UK with my wife, i must have a Job that earns 18,600 regardless of what she earns. Where as in any other EU country I just need a job, it's doesn't matter how much I earn, so long as I am not a burden on the state.
It's the same for a French person with a non EU spouse living in France (they must adhere to the French rules on immigration) but if they move to another EU country, the EU rules come into force, and the spose can stay and can work so long as the EU citizen has a job or is self supporting.
A French guy living in London, with a American wife has to conform to the underlying EU rules on the spouse right to residency, as he is not a UK citizen just a UK resident... where as a British guy living in London with a American wife must adhere to the UK rules on his spouses residency. It's only if the British guy was to move to Paris would he have to adhere to the EU rules not the French rules.. It's the same accross the EU.
That creates the Surinder Singh visa loop hole, where the UK citizen can move to Paris with his American wife for a period of time, then when he returns to the UK after said period living in France, he is no longer classed as a UK citizen for visa purposes, thus being able to settle without with his wife without having to earn 18,600. He just needs to be self supportive.
In my case i could return to the UK now get a minumum wage job and my wife could stay too, but a no deal Brexit could mean the UK can backtrack from these EU rules and kick my wife out once more. But after being forced out in the first place neither of us want to return to the UK. Ideally we want to saty in Spain, and no deal could also make that scienario impossible.
It's an awkward 'what if' scenario. On the plus side, Spain is a significant destination for Britons moving abroad, and there are hundreds of thousands of Britons living there, so the chances of blanket deportations is very small. In the longer term, when you qualify for it, establishing Spanish residency and future citizenship should be your goal if you want to remain there. I'm a firm believer in becoming a citizen of the country you want to call home, with all the rights and obligations that entails. Of course, that doesn't help much right now. Hopefully any change which does come will be slow.
Gisela, Boris, Micheal and the Leave Alliance promised UK citizen rights would be protected in the event of the UK leaving the EU so i guess you have nothing to fear.
Apparently the loss of UK citizens rights was project fear and hysterical.
What are you going to do about it?
You have 3 choices I can think of right now:
Do nothing. Wait. Rely on politicians to sort this mess out. Blame everything on bad luck if/when it all goes wrong. Tell yourself there's nothing you could have done.
Take your and your Wife's fate into your own hands. Look into citizenship rules for Spain. They are probably quite demanding but you might be able to qualify. If not, look into other EU countries rights and processes for applying for citizenship. Start making a plan.
Take your and your Wife's fate into your own hands. Look into your career. Is there a way to get paid more than the £18,600 required in the next year or so? Even overtime options may be enough. Otherwise look into learning options - the type of learning that has a direct impact on employability and earnings potential.
"In a perfect world... spammers would get caught, go to jail, and share a cell with many men who have enlarged their penises, taken Viagra and are looking for a new relationship."
Well, perhaps so, but really, we're talking about the "no deal" scenario here.
As I understand it, come March 30th next year, unless either May's deal gets signed off by Parliament, OR some other option gets sufficient support to enact legislative changes through Parliament, OR we manage to get an Art.50 extension (which requires unanimous agreement from EU members) then, we'll be out with no deal.
Short of massive volte-faces by liads of MP's, May's deal is dead. Currently, there doesn't seem to be adequate support for any one alternative option, and extending Art.50 may have an unpalatable price-tag attached, such as fishing rights, or re:Gibraltar by Spain.
So IF we leave with no deal, what then would be the EU commissions attitude? Punitive, or pragmatic?
Dunno, but I suspect reasonably pragmatic, especially on citizen's rights.
I was actually a bit curious about what happened to you / you wife after the Crimea event. Not much else to say other than hope it works out somehow. The end of freedom of movement doesn't impact me nearly as it has the potential to impact you, but it nevertheless has a very real impact to my own future (certain options are now.. well, will be closed off).
Last edited by TooNice; 25-12-2018 at 02:52 PM.
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