Gillette..be the best men you can be...

[wazzickle]

On the video, I agree with the portrayals of teaching the younger generation, what I disagree with is the notion of toxic masculinity. Generally speaking, the sort of values shown would be classic values of fatherhood, and perhaps a concept of being a good and honourable man. Notions and an era that would be deemed to be entrenched in 'the patriarchy'. And yet commonly associated with the notion of toxic masculinity is the idea that the 'patriarchy' is evil.

Maybe it's all semantics but I'm getting pretty fed up of people switching terms around and then making the same point.

You want to change men's behaviour? Pouring derision onto them isn't going to be the way to do it.

No such thing as toxic masculinity. Just bad behaviour.

I fail to see how the advert in any way poured derision onto men.

The semantics part is where you say that there's no such thing as toxic masculinity. Of course there is. There's toxic femininity, toxic islam, toxic gaming culture, toxic dog-owning culture, toxic pretty much anything. It's simply referring to the portion of the subcultures that encourages or reinforces or tacitly condones 'bad behaviour', in this case bullying and sexual harassment. Maybe we could argue over the extent of these problems, but you surely couldn't argue that the problems don't exist.

[Hoonigan]

No such thing as toxic masculinity. Just bad behaviour.

There absolutely is such a thing as toxic masculinity. It's a problem in today's society, especially in terms of things like wolf whistling at women and giving women a slap on the arse.

Gone are the days of beckoning in your secretary, having her sit on your lap for some light petting before slapping her on the arse on her way back to the front desk, issues are usually much more subtle, but they exist and I applaud Gillette for trying to do something like this.

[peterb]

Ive just watched it and I can’t say that I feel my masculinity is under threat or that this is an ‘attack on men’.

It is an attack on unacceptable behaviour by men and that is fine by me.

Men objecting to this either have problems defining masculinity, or their own self esteem, or think that unwanted sexual harassment is still acceptable.

(IMNSHO of course)

[sammyc]

There absolutely is such a thing as toxic masculinity. It's a problem in today's society, especially in terms of things like wolf whistling at women and giving women a slap on the arse.

Gone are the days of beckoning in your secretary, having her sit on your lap for some light petting before slapping her on the arse on her way back to the front desk, issues are usually much more subtle, but they exist and I applaud Gillette for trying to do something like this.

^ This, but also the overall idea of manliness having a very specific definition - men who don't necessarily align themselves with the behaviours you describe can still have fairly rigid ideas of proper manly behaviour. Where that becomes negative is the imposing of it on others, especially a) in how to bring up your sons (ie mothers posting about fighting with their husbands over their insistence that their son be forced go in for manly stuff, watch war films, all the boys will/should be boys stuff) and b) critically, the way you treat others who don't conform to a manly stereotype (see the amount of name-calling & alpha/beta jeering the minute an ad campaign like this trends).

Having said that, I do look on this as bandwagon marketing & not a lot more. & Procter & Gamble have a lot to sort out about themselves before they're the best they can be.

[Ttaskmaster]

[QUOTE=Bonebreaker777;4059122]This is just another shot at men.

No way a similarly stereotypical advert about any other gender would fly like this.

Of course it would... and does. Lots of women-focussed ads play on stereotypes.
Only difference is that men (currently) respond better to being told by their peers and elders that what they're doing is not cool. Women's ads tend to be more encouraging toward good behaviour rather than berating for the bad.

Also, doubt it's about good parenting. If you haven't done it 'right' before, you won't change your ways after seeing this.

You'd be surprised.
Many homes now lack a decent father figure, especially in America (where this ad is mostly targeted) and among certain ethnic groups. In to this gap steps Gilette, a brand long associated with shaving and manliness stuff... same reason that Lynx ad was so popular.

Not like it's a new thing. Although things should be equal. All sanitary or hygienic things should receive the same taxation. It's always a personal choice using one

It's your choice to shave. It's not her choice to bleed.
If you don't like the blade tax, get an electric... not that 20% on a £10 pack of razors once every couple of months is going to leave you starving, or anything.

Most women use contraception.

I think he was talking about the protection that sanitary products provide... which, incidentally, covers a lot more than just period bleeds.

And while you're bringing up the matter of "few days without using any kind of protection", so called free-bleeding practices are getting quite common.

Great. Let's shun them as unclean then, or whatever the Bible said to do....!!
To me, it's no different to getting a nosebleed or having a cold - There should be no shame in it, but you still don't go leaking all over the shot, and you clean up any spillages... To that end, society does not really give you a choice.

Maybe it's all semantics but I'm getting pretty fed up of people switching terms around and then making the same point.

That's society, though - Values change, standards change, definitions change, but the basic message is always 'don't be a [censored]". It's been that way for millenia. You're still supposed to Be A Man and all that, it's just that the definition of A Man is currently outdated and we haven't bothered to collectively figure out what it means to be A Man in modern society yet...

^ This, but also the overall idea of manliness having a very specific definition - men who don't necessarily align themselves with the behaviours you describe can still have fairly rigid ideas of proper manly behaviour.

It's quite simple - Real men wear Brut™ aftershave. That's all you need to know!

Having said that, I do look on this as bandwagon marketing & not a lot more.

I see it as evidence of the massive gap in our manhood and our fathering, if it's so big that an advertising agency can just swan in and think it can fill that role... or at least capitalise on the lacking element.

[Galant]

Lots of responses so I'm not going to include all the replies in here.

Obviously I agree that there are problems in society. There are bullying problems, harassment problems etc. My issue with 'toxic masculinity' as a concept is that it tends towards the notion that there's something inherently wrong with being a man or male traits. It's often over-generalised and often doesn't really mean much.

We can ask the question, what does toxic masculinity mean, who might be an example of it. Maybe Donald Trump? A womaniser, disrespectful, placing great value on financial wealth above other things.....? Seems straightforward. And those are problems. Donald's problem though, isn't that he's a man. It's that he's a muppet. Being a man doesn't lead to those things. Being selfish, being proud, being inconsiderate leads to those things. Masculinity, if we define it loosely as those traits and tendencies more prevalent or typical in males, biologically speaking, isn't responsible for this. Typically male traits are being more aggressive, more comfortable with confrontation, relatively greater physical strength, etc. But those traits aren't at fault here. Those same traits can lead to very noble outcomes. The problem isn't with being masculine. That men are 'dogs'. The problem is with making bad choices, being immature, or just, behaving badly.

I think, if I could summarise, is that 'toxic masculinity' hints at a problem stemming from being, whereas the real problem isn't in being, it's in doing.
There's very real focus on that general concept, that we are what we are and we can't help it. But I think the better, higher views of humanity tell us that we are responsible beings. It's not what we are but what we do, that matters. To quote Batman Begins - "It's not who you are inside, but what you do that defines you."

This is an important message for young boys - and everyone else in society. And it's risks being overlooked when approaches like this misplace the problem or over generalise. Each of us must make choices, not simply act out. Boys aren't bad because they're boys, and male tendencies or traits aren't bad. It's what you do with them that can be bad or good. In the same way this applies to typical female traits or tendencies.

I think it can hamper boys and society if we begin to entertain the idea that boys are somehow inherently damaged or bad. They're not, no more than women, or any other demographic. Whoever you are, whatever group you belong to, your choices are what matter, not just negatively, but positively. It's in your choices that you can achieve great things and in your choices that you can do horrific things. Learn to choose, and act, well.

The solution to toxic men isn't losing or ignoring male impulses, it's making good choices. We want wise men, generous men, considerate men, honourable men, courageous men, responsible men. And the male impulses can help with that. It's not maleness we need to address so much, it's goodness. And that's the same for women.

"Toxic masculinity" just isn't a helpful term. It too easily can indicate that maleness is inherently bad. And I reject that vehemently.



On another note, the idea that the definition of masculinity is out dated and we need to redefine it for this age simply isn't true. It's a misunderstanding at best. Masculinity relates to the tendencies and traits found in males, and those haven't changed over time, so too neither have the functions that typically stem from those traits. The outward roles played may not be the same, but the biological/psychological make up of men, and women, is essentially the same, so too the traits that stem from that, and the desires that stem from them. If you look through history, you'll find that it's a question of balance that has been the central issue forever. The balance between living a life guided by impulse or desire vs. by virtue or principle.

And lastly, just to clarify, I don't want to make the advert the enemy here. I get what they're trying to do. I love the idea of society helping boys to grow into good men. It's the use of toxic masculinity I don't like, per the above reasons. I didn't mean that the advert itself pours derision on men, but that there are aspects of society doing that.

[Andeh13]

I couldn't help but feel it also normalizes the view that ''men'' are generally insensitive, bully, sexual assaulters that need to be monitored & stopped. Why do I need to suddenly find myself having to watch, monitor, babysit my fellow man in case they decide to turn into some sexual deviant. What about women gossiping & bitching at each other (generalising & stereotyping like I am....), reading unpleasant magazines (cosmopolitan, Hello, OK, Gossip! etc etc etc) that thrive off such subjects.

When do companies start asking ''the difficult questions'' regarding them?

[jimborae]

WTF does this have to do with buying razor blades???? That would be my question. Just Gillette trying to capture the zeitgeist and get more clicks, says nothing to me or my wallet.

[Galant]

WTF does this have to do with buying razor blades???? That would be my question. Just Gillette trying to capture the zeitgeist and get more clicks, says nothing to me or my wallet.

The use of their slogan was a bit odd. Retro advert clip - "Is this the best a man can get?" What? Your razors? That's what the slogan was about right? Gillette are the best razors a man can get. At least I thought it was. Since you're asking though, no, they're not. There are better shaves to be had out there. Especially considering that cartridge and disposable razors are some of the most 'wasteful' items in the bathroom. No recycling possible. And for how much money? No thanks. There are definitely better, more economical and more environmentally friendly shaves out there.

[Saracen999]

Anyone see the "Is this sexual harrassnent" program last night?

Of course there is such a thing as toxic masculinity, and toxic-pretty-much-anything. But, it's the fault of those doing it, not everybody just because they were born with a specific chromosome pairing,

That program last night showed a dramatised workplace scenario and, at several points, asked "Is that s3xual harrassment?" My answer, every time, was "Either yes,or at a minimum, potentially yes".

But the "panel", about 20 mixed gender in the 18-30 group were very split, and not especially along gender lines. In some areas, the girls seemed more tolerant than the boys.

The overall conclusion was that a surprisingly high proportion of both genders had no clear idea of what was, and was not, sexual harrassment, or apparently, an acceptable standard of professional workplace behaviour.

My advice, especially to single under 30's that might try to "pull" at work, find this on iPlayer. It might open your eyes and just might keep you out of an employment tribunal or workplace disciplinary action.

And don't make the mistake of thinking it's about how boys treat girls. It definitely cuts the other way too, and also about straight/gay, gay/gay, and so on.

[Galant]

Anyone see the "Is this sexual harrassnent" program last night?

Of course there is such a thing as toxic masculinity, and toxic-pretty-much-anything. But, it's the fault of those doing it, not everybody just because they were born with a specific chromosome pairing,

That program last night showed a dramatised workplace scenario and, at several points, asked "Is that s3xual harrassment?" My answer, every time, was "Either yes,or at a minimum, potentially yes".

But the "panel", about 20 mixed gender in the 18-30 group were very split, and not especially along gender lines. In some areas, the girls seemed more tolerant than the boys.

The overall conclusion was that a surprisingly high proportion of both genders had no clear idea of what was, and was not, sexual harrassment, or apparently, an acceptable standard of professional workplace behaviour.

My advice, especially to single under 30's that might try to "pull" at work, find this on iPlayer. It might open your eyes and just might keep you out of an employment tribunal or workplace disciplinary action.

And don't make the mistake of thinking it's about how boys treat girls. It definitely cuts the other way too, and also about straight/gay, gay/gay, and so on.

Go on Saracen - give me your definition of toxic masculinity, if you wouldn't mind?

I've been having a bit of a read around and it's actually amazing how widely it's 'defined'. This being the case I can see some definitions I wouldn't have a problem with but then others that I will never accept.

[Saracen999]

I don't know that I care to try to define it, because doing so requires far too much thiught to be sure to include everything you mean,,while taking care to not include anythingvyou don't.

But I have seen many examples over the years that I regard as toxic, including but not limited to the workplace.

[ik9000]

I don't know that I care to try to define it, because doing so requires far too much thiught to be sure to include everything you mean,,while taking care to not include anythingvyou don't.

But I have seen many examples over the years that I regard as toxic, including but not limited to the workplace.

Toxic masculinity? Is that when someone is wearing too much pungent aftershave so that it makes everyone else's eyes run in the train carriage?

[rob4001]

The Parent company P&G should clean their own house first in regards to animal testing and complicit in working with companies that exploit forced child labour.

https://www.amnesty.org/en/latest/ne...forced-labour/

[wazzickle]

Go on Saracen - give me your definition of toxic masculinity, if you wouldn't mind?

I've been having a bit of a read around and it's actually amazing how widely it's 'defined'. This being the case I can see some definitions I wouldn't have a problem with but then others that I will never accept.

At a basic minimum please let's agree that on a logical level 'toxic masculinity' does not suggest that all aspects of masculinity are toxic, nor that all men are toxic, but rather, is referring to those aspects of masculinity that are toxic in an isolated sense.

[TeePee]

From the Reddits:

This helped me understand it, from a non-male perspective.

Voiceover

Society has a problem that can no longer be ignored...Toxic Femininity

News reports of False Rape Accusations and Huge Divorce Settlements play in the background

Several women are standing around at a barbecue. One is laughing, cradling her pregnant stomach and says "Haha yeah, Joe still doesn't want kids so I cut holes in the condoms". Her friend says "Not cool, sis"

Toxic Femininity affects all of us...

Two women are sitting on a bed in what seems to be a dorm room. One is visibly upset and screams "He thinks he can cheat on me? We'll see who's laughing when he's sitting in a cell on rape charges". A smile replaces her tears.

Women. You have to do better.

This is the number one comment on YouTube, it parallels the Gillette commercial. There is zero chance a commercial like this ever gets made...and if it did, the uproar would be unanimous. And rightly so, because such a tiny, minuscule, infinitesimal percentage of women would even THINK of actually doing any of these things, Same goes with a black version, advising against murder and rape. Muslim version advising against terrorism and honor killings etc.

People do not want - and shouldn't - be held morally responsible for the actions of the very worst fraction of their 'group'.