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Thread: Gillette..be the best men you can be...

  1. #33
    MCRN Tachi Ttaskmaster's Avatar
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    Re: Gillette..be the best men you can be...

    Quote Originally Posted by Galant View Post
    On another note, the idea that the definition of masculinity is out dated and we need to redefine it for this age simply isn't true.
    You're right, masculinity is not...
    But the definition of what a man is in today's world, and how one goes about being one, is outdated... and has been since at least 2003, given that the Psychology department next door to us were already running courses, to help men understand how society had changed, how to adapt and embrace said changes, etc.
    It's not a new concept, or anything.

    Quote Originally Posted by Galant View Post
    And lastly, just to clarify, I don't want to make the advert the enemy here. I get what they're trying to do. I love the idea of society helping boys to grow into good men. It's the use of toxic masculinity I don't like, per the above reasons. I didn't mean that the advert itself pours derision on men, but that there are aspects of society doing that.
    Yep.
    A friend of mine noted recently on his blog that in the old days (50+ years ago when he began his apprenticeship) it was always the mature men you worked with that you learned from, both the trade you were in and how to be A Man. These days students grow up around other students, with notably fewer having much in the way of father figures... and the topic of this whole blog mini-series was actually inspired by one of my friend's own former-apprentices, who first brought up this very issue which he himself felt he had lacked in his life. Said apprentice was in his mid-20s.

    Furthermore, there are various groups trying to supply this exact kind of support.
    For example: http://abandofbrothers.org.uk/


    Quote Originally Posted by Andeh13 View Post
    I couldn't help but feel it also normalizes the view that ''men'' are generally insensitive, bully, sexual assaulters that need to be monitored & stopped.
    Does it?
    I thought the whole idea of those few blokes who step in to sort things out destroys the normalisation.

    Quote Originally Posted by Andeh13 View Post
    Why do I need to suddenly find myself having to watch, monitor, babysit my fellow man in case they decide to turn into some sexual deviant.
    Because until recently, that is what we've generally done.
    There have always been certain things that "You just don't do", things drilled into you by your dad, or uncle, or your older brother, or someone considered an elder that you had some measure of respect for. Nowadays we see criminals doing things that we were taught were 'unthinkable'. I remember an interview with some criminals who were around during the Kray's time, as it was universally agreed that there was a line you didn't cross - You don't batter someone's granny, or murder kids, and stuff like that. Even today, there are certain crimes for which most convicts will batter the living daylights out of you, because they cross that line... It's all part of and derived from that 'watching over your fellow men' thing.

    Quote Originally Posted by Andeh13 View Post
    What about women gossiping & bitching at each other (generalising & stereotyping like I am....), reading unpleasant magazines (cosmopolitan, Hello, OK, Gossip! etc etc etc) that thrive off such subjects.
    Changes are being striven for in that arena too, although they're up against a MUCH bigger cash cow in that industry.

    Quote Originally Posted by Galant View Post
    I've been having a bit of a read around and it's actually amazing how widely it's 'defined'. This being the case I can see some definitions I wouldn't have a problem with but then others that I will never accept.
    I'd assume the definition from the dictionary meaning of Toxic, ie that it poisons those around.
    In this case, the less admirable examples of masculine behaviour that then infect, and spread to, other men resulting in the whole situation getting worse. That is to say, men are allowed to get away with behaving like [heavily censored] and so it continues, because the rest of us aren't stopping it.

    Quote Originally Posted by TeePee View Post
    People do not want - and shouldn't - be held morally responsible for the actions of the very worst fraction of their 'group'.
    OK, who is, then?
    The very nature of laws are based on morals, which are simply what the vast majority of society has agreed is acceptable. We decided, so we are responsible. Moreover, we are the ones raising people with such morality, so twice in as many sentences, we are responsible.

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  3. #34
    Senior Member SeriousSam's Avatar
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    Re: Gillette..be the best men you can be...

    Unless you can point to behavioral aspects that are specific to either men or women, then bringing gender into the equation is disingenuous at best. I agree that certain types of behavior are toxic, even though its arguably poor use of the word itself. Clearly within a civilised society there should be agreed norms. However, in our current hypersensitive instant emotional reaction world there are serious consequences for demonising specific groups. Trump for one rode the wave of anti anti-white (men) for popularity.
    If Wisdom is the coordination of "knowledge and experience" and its deliberate use to improve well being then how come "Ignorance is bliss"

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    Hexus.Jet TeePee's Avatar
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    Re: Gillette..be the best men you can be...

    Quote Originally Posted by Ttaskmaster View Post
    OK, who is, then?
    The very nature of laws are based on morals, which are simply what the vast majority of society has agreed is acceptable. We decided, so we are responsible. Moreover, we are the ones raising people with such morality, so twice in as many sentences, we are responsible.
    Are all Muslims responsible for Terrorism? If so, then is Trump's ban on Muslims acceptable?

    Every individual is responsible for their own conduct. We do not punish all for the behaviour of one.

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    Re: Gillette..be the best men you can be...

    Quote Originally Posted by SeriousSam View Post
    Unless you can point to behavioral aspects that are specific to either men or women, then bringing gender into the equation is disingenuous at best.
    Sounds like a nice intelligent sentence to poop out I suppose, but really it's a bit meaningless. We're not dealing in absolutes here and to characterise anyone elses arguments as doing so is the part that's disingenuous. The idea that, because one group engages in toxic behaviour, you can no longer suggest that the other group is mostly responsible, or that it's the entirety of that other group that's responsible, is at best dodgy rhetoric and at worst an obvious, deliberate misinterpretation of the rules of speech and debate.

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    Hooning about Hoonigan's Avatar
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    Re: Gillette..be the best men you can be...

    I think a lot of people engaging in this debate may find this documentary to be watch-worthy. Was on BBC on Sunday.

    Is This Sexual Harassment?

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    Re: Gillette..be the best men you can be...

    Quote Originally Posted by TeePee View Post
    Are all Muslims responsible for Terrorism? If so, then is Trump's ban on Muslims acceptable?

    Every individual is responsible for their own conduct. We do not punish all for the behaviour of one.
    Indeed. The Geneva Convention specifically prohibits collective punishment.

  8. #39
    OilSheikh
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    Re: Gillette..be the best men you can be...

    So, men have been branded as chimps for how they treat women ?
    Erm.. all men are not the same.

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    Re: Gillette..be the best men you can be...

    Quote Originally Posted by OilSheikh View Post
    So, men have been branded as chimps for how they treat women ?
    Erm.. all men are not the same.
    give this man a cookie

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    Re: Gillette..be the best men you can be...

    Quote Originally Posted by ik9000 View Post
    Toxic masculinity? Is that when someone is wearing too much pungent aftershave so that it makes everyone else's eyes run in the train carriage?
    Um, no. IMHO.

  11. #42
    Ghost of Hexus Present sammyc's Avatar
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    Re: Gillette..be the best men you can be...

    Quote Originally Posted by TeePee View Post
    Every individual is responsible for their own conduct. We do not punish all for the behaviour of one.
    And no man is an island &c. If you have a culture that fosters/permits/reinforces/rewards unsavoury & chauvinistic back-slapping frat-house & workplace behaviours, you get Trumps.
    Aliorum vitia turbaverunt me

  12. #43
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    Re: Gillette..be the best men you can be...

    Quote Originally Posted by wazzickle View Post
    .... The idea that, because one group engages in toxic behaviour, you can no longer suggest that the other group is mostly responsible, or that it's the entirety of that other group that's responsible, is at best dodgy rhetoric and at worst an obvious, deliberate misinterpretation of the rules of speech and debate.
    Exactly ... though I'd have said "sub-group".

    As someone said above, because some Muslims are terrorists, do we blame all Muslims? No.

    Going back to the Irish 'troubles', because some Catholics were IRA bombers (and yes, the other side had thugs too) do we blame all Irish, or all Catholics? No.

    In the same way, because some men are insensitive, obnoxious, sexist pigs, do we blame all men? No.


    For example, a (minor) example of offensive, perhaps toxic, feminism ..... back in my Uni days, in the 70's, I walked through a heavy swing door and held it open for the person following me, who sailed through, then told me I was a male, chauvinist pig for holding the door for her.

    Mg first comment - I hadn't even looked to see if the oerson following me was a man or woman. Holding the door was simple, common courtesy and the gender of the oerson following me was utterly irrelevant.

    Second comment - I took a good, long look at her face, hoping (without success) to have her follow me through a door again .... at which point I most certainly would not have heldcit open, even if her knocked her on her ass. But I wouldn't blame all women for a moronic comment from one idiot.
    Last edited by Saracen999; 17-01-2019 at 09:02 PM. Reason: Edited for cockup

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    Missed by us all - RIP old boy spacein_vader's Avatar
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    Re: Gillette..be the best men you can be...

    Quote Originally Posted by OilSheikh View Post
    So, men have been branded as chimps for how they treat women ?
    Erm.. all men are not the same.
    The advert doesn't say all men are the same.
    Quote Originally Posted by sammyc View Post
    And no man is an island
    Except Barry.

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  15. #45
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    Re: Gillette..be the best men you can be...

    Quote Originally Posted by Saracen999 View Post
    As someone said above, because some Muslims are terrorists, do we blame all terrorists? No.
    I assume (or... sincerely hope) that you meant something more along the lines of "do we blame all Muslims for terrorist actions?"

    There's a lot of talk in this thread about punishing people. In what way is encouraging people to be better to each other punishment?

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    Re: Gillette..be the best men you can be...

    Quote Originally Posted by Splash View Post
    I assume (or... sincerely hope) that you meant something more along the lines of "do we blame all Muslims for terrorist actions?"

    There's a lot of talk in this thread about punishing people. In what way is encouraging people to be better to each other punishment?
    Sorry, typo.

    Be ause some Muslims are terrorists, do we blame all Muslims? Hell, no.

    The people we blame for terrorism, are the terrorists, not the wider group they come from and proclaim to represent, whatever that group is.

    If an extremist animal rights campaigner sets off a bomb, do we blame the RSPCA? No, we blame the radical nutjob(s) that did it and, of course, anybody involved in arming, financing, facilitating etc knowing what they intended to do. But not people that just want to protect animals.

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    Re: Gillette..be the best men you can be...

    Oh, but Splash ....


    Here's the tricky bit.

    There are terrorists that come from the Muslim community. They also claim to be acting on behalf of their faith.

    Probably the best people to spot extremists are their co-religionists. How do we go about saying that without making it sound like it's blaming all Muslims? There have certainly been sone ham-fisted tactless attempts that have probably done more harm than good.

    It seems to me that most Muslims, at least in this country, want exactly the same thing as most non-Muslims .... to get on with life, do their daily jobs, raise families, enjoy social time and, yes, be free to worship according to their beliefs. And if that isn't a pretty good description of the aspirations of the British way of life, and British values, I don't know what is.

  18. #48
    Hexus.Jet TeePee's Avatar
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    Re: Gillette..be the best men you can be...

    The ad isn't criticising society, or members of society for not doing enough to stop abuse. It's calling out men, specifically, for not doing enough to stop abuse by those individuals. Yes, some people behave badly, often criminally, but that doesn't mean I'm automatically responsible for not doing enough to stop it, just because I share body parts (Or self-identified gender) with many of the perpetrators of abuse. Why must I be responsible for the actions of those individuals because of my gender? This is sexism, pure and simple. I know, as a white male, I'm not allowed to be a victim of sexism or racism in modern society...

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