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Thread: PETA kills animals

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    Re: PETA kills animals

    Furthermore, to describe most Animal rights activists as 'terrorists' and 'willing to kill' is nonsense, backed up by no evidence what so ever. If most animal activists were actual terrorists, we would all be in a lot of trouble. I would argue that using that kind of language demeans your overall point.
    That was my reaction, too.

    It might be that all extremists are activists, but not all activists are extremists.

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    Re: PETA kills animals

    Quote Originally Posted by Saracen999 View Post
    That was my reaction, too.

    It might be that all extremists are activists, but not all activists are extremists.
    Exactly. I must admit I don't know many animal activists, but the few I do are more the tree hugging type, as opposed to terrorists.

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    Re: PETA kills animals

    Quote Originally Posted by opel80uk View Post
    Exactly. I must admit I don't know many animal activists, but the few I do are more the tree hugging type, as opposed to terrorists.
    Those few "activists" I know are more likely to hug a kitten to death than commit any form of terrorism. Most "activists", in most fields, are just people with a view strong enough to go a march or two, or similar, and don't have an unpleasant bone in their bodies.

    There are a few nut-job extremists in animal rights, I'm sure, but I rather think it's very few.

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    Re: PETA kills animals

    I never claimed that all or even most animal rights activists are terrorists. I was equating PETA with a sort of soft version of terrorism. There are certainly plenty of actual animal rights terrorists who firebomb animal testing labs.

    Quote Originally Posted by opel80uk View Post
    Sorry, I don't buy that. Eating meat is immoral IMO. Killing sentient beings, who have the capacity to feel pain, for no other reason than we want to eat them, especially when we are perfectly capable (and indeed may be better off) of having a meat free diet, is indefensible. I also happen to believe that one day in the future, humans will look back at eating animals as barbaric.

    And before I get attacked as being another PC snowflake liberal, I eat lots of meat. easily 4 or 5 times a week, if not more. And yes, I'm aware of how this all makes me a hypocrite, and immoral, but I prefer that to the cognitive dissonance on display whenever this topic is brought up, especially when it comes to arguments like: Lamb=Ok, Dog=not Ok.

    As for PETA though, I do partly agree. Much like the Militant Atheists (who in principle I tend to agree with), I just think the tactics they use in trying to win hearts & minds is all wrong. But the idea that they can't actually do good because you have decided that they want to feel good (by virtue of you seemingly deciding what is good), rather than actually do good is disingenuous. Firstly, 'good' is subjective. And secondly, PETA have, throughout their history, have has some notable successes with their campaigns, especially in relation to the fur trade and animal testing, so they would dispute what you say. Furthermore, to describe most Animal rights activists as 'terrorists' and 'willing to kill' is nonsense, backed up by no evidence what so ever. If most animal activists were actual terrorists, we would all be in a lot of trouble. I would argue that using that kind of language demeans your overall point.
    Eating anything is immoral, as I explained above. There's lots of vegetarian food that requires a large amount of land and water, which cuts down on the liveable habitat for wild animals. Avocados are nice and veggie but need to be flown over from south america. There are probably a good few people who go vegan overnight and without thinking about it actually do more harm to the environment.

    It is entirely plausible to eat meat within a society that has a healthy relationship with meat.

    I don't see any cognitive dissonance with the attitude of lamb = ok, dog = not ok. Again, as I said above, this is not just down to cultural attitudes. Someone eating my dog would be akin to someone eating my child. You could develop some sort of relationship to a sheep but they're not going to develop the same relationship back. There's lots of animal psychology studies and evolutionary psychological theory about how dogs are highly different to livestock.

    Why do you eat lots of meat? There's nothing wrong with being a hypocrite, in particular, we all are in different ways, but why wouldn't you act on a thing if you believe it? Going veggie or even reducing your meat intake really isn't difficult at all.

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    Re: PETA kills animals

    Quote Originally Posted by wazzickle View Post
    I don't see any cognitive dissonance with the attitude of lamb = ok, dog = not ok. Again, as I said above, this is not just down to cultural attitudes. Someone eating my dog would be akin to someone eating my child.
    We're talking about dogs as a concept, not your dog in particular - if not eating a dog/any dog is not down to cultural attitude on your part, then you are saying other cultures randomly find it acceptable and there is some other reason they do not have this type of innate regard for dogs.

    As far as animal differentiation goes, I don't even need to google for examples of "x is more intelligent than previously thought" as I've lost count of the times this turns up in studies, some more specious than others maybe, but by no means is it the case that we have 100% correctly assessed this kind of thing in the past and it's a safe bet we haven't had the last word on the subject yet. I mean, humans, the species that test on beagles (I take it that is not ok with you) - this is not the species I trust to tell me what feels what emotion and what an animal's capacities are.
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    Re: PETA kills animals

    Quote Originally Posted by wazzickle View Post
    Eating anything is immoral, as I explained above.
    There is no such thing as morality when it comes to being part of a food chain.
    It is only the avoidance of natural selection by means of mass industrial farming under cruel conditions, which makes it immoral.

    Quote Originally Posted by wazzickle View Post
    You could develop some sort of relationship to a sheep but they're not going to develop the same relationship back. There's lots of animal psychology studies and evolutionary psychological theory about how dogs are highly different to livestock.
    Pretty sure there are lots of studies that also argue how sheep and pigs are fairly intelligent.
    The difference is that if you eat your dog you'll have one meal, whereas if you co-exist with your dog you'll both have about 15 years of meals, hunting assistance, early warning and protection against predators, warmth at night, companionship and entertainment.

    Quote Originally Posted by wazzickle View Post
    Why do you eat lots of meat?
    Basic primal instinct - If it tastes good, eat it.

    Quote Originally Posted by wazzickle View Post
    Going veggie or even reducing your meat intake really isn't difficult at all.
    No, the hard part is coming to terms with the fact that you're now one of them...!!
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    Re: PETA kills animals

    Quote Originally Posted by Ttaskmaster View Post
    There is no such thing as morality when it comes to being part of a food chain.
    It is only the avoidance of natural selection by means of mass industrial farming under cruel conditions, which makes it immoral.


    Pretty sure there are lots of studies that also argue how sheep and pigs are fairly intelligent.
    The difference is that if you eat your dog you'll have one meal, whereas if you co-exist with your dog you'll both have about 15 years of meals, hunting assistance, early warning and protection against predators, warmth at night, companionship and entertainment.


    Basic primal instinct - If it tastes good, eat it.


    No, the hard part is coming to terms with the fact that you're now one of them...!!
    I'm not talking about intelligence, but if I were, I'm pretty sure you'd struggle to find legit studies that claim sheep are intelligent. They're about the stupidest animals out there. We've bred them to be stupid.

    Dogs are not as intelligent as lots of other mammals, but they have other qualities that lend them to being good pals for us humans.

    In terms of basic primal instinct, as a conscious, conscientious entity, there exists some line of things where even if it tasted great, you wouldn't eat it, right? Like, human flesh, for example?

    In terms of 'being one of them', lots of people tread the fine line of not eating meat but then not talking about it unless asked.

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    Re: PETA kills animals

    Quote Originally Posted by sammyc View Post
    We're talking about dogs as a concept, not your dog in particular - if not eating a dog/any dog is not down to cultural attitude on your part, then you are saying other cultures randomly find it acceptable and there is some other reason they do not have this type of innate regard for dogs.

    As far as animal differentiation goes, I don't even need to google for examples of "x is more intelligent than previously thought" as I've lost count of the times this turns up in studies, some more specious than others maybe, but by no means is it the case that we have 100% correctly assessed this kind of thing in the past and it's a safe bet we haven't had the last word on the subject yet. I mean, humans, the species that test on beagles (I take it that is not ok with you) - this is not the species I trust to tell me what feels what emotion and what an animal's capacities are.
    Of course we're talking about dogs in general. I talked about the specific example of my dog as a parallel to my child. Someone eating a dog would be not a million miles away for me as someone eating a child. Don't try to be clever with my words please, be clever with your own.

    Other cultures find rape acceptable. That doesn't mean it's acceptable to me. I'm not a cultural relativist. I'm not sure what you mean when you talk about other cultures randomly finding it acceptable.

    If you read the articles relevant to studies that come up in the newspapers only, yes, you'll get a weird, media-reflected view of what's going on. The media love a story about this. As usual, especially with psychological studies, which take on a number of different forms, the media is awful at both understanding what was tested and the conclusions, and disseminating that information to its readers. There are a variety of different categories that can be tested for when it comes to regular intelligence (i.e. problem-solving) and emotional intelligence within animals. It's not linear - some intelligent species are bad at emotional bonds with even their own species, let alone other species; others may not be very good at all at problem-solving, but great at socialising. Even with socialising skills, some are good at some things but not others. Both dogs and apes, for example, live in packs, and are good at socialising; apes, however, struggle with the concepts of eyes - they can't differentiate between a human holding a bucket over his head, being turned around, or his eyes closed, whereas dogs can. The problem is that the media doesn't really care that they've contradicting their previous, massively oversimplified 'x species more intelligent than y species' when they simplify some other new study, nor of course do they care about the methodology or funding.

    I am ok with animal testing, as long as its done with a good goal in mind (i.e. not cosmetics) and with good oversight and regulation. Dependent as I am on insulin, which was originally extracted from animals, not to mention all the other medicine I've taken in my life which has at some point been tested on animals, it would be pretty hypocritical of me to say that I'm not.

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    Re: PETA kills animals

    Quote Originally Posted by wazzickle View Post
    Of course we're talking about dogs in general. I talked about the specific example of my dog as a parallel to my child. Someone eating a dog would be not a million miles away for me as someone eating a child. Don't try to be clever with my words please, be clever with your own.
    I'm not trying to be anything; I don't have any pretension about my argument-making skills, usually preferring to read others' posts & click like to indicate that's what I think, only put better - I only post in threads like this to stand up & be counted kinda thing. Certainly not to argue for point-scoring's sake or be a smart alec, anyway.

    My point was just that there are species considered acceptable to eat, say rabbit, or use the fur of, in this country (by some), but less so if it's someone's own pet. I'm not saying you are basing your judgment on the acceptability of dog as meat based on your individual animal & not as a species, obviously you aren't. I honestly don't know if/how far in other cultures they square that re dogs, ie in considering dogs vs one's own pet. But; in the case of animal testing & your being ok with it (to a point, & in an ideal world would do away with, I imagine) you couldn't contemplate that being your beagle I take it; so in that instance, there is a difference in the way you judge if something is acceptable for a dog vs your own dog. Sorry if that seems like a poor point to you, it's not meant to be of the "now you're just being silly", variety, just seems a fair point to me.

    I'm not sure what you mean when you talk about other cultures randomly finding it acceptable.
    I mean that if you're saying it's not culture that means you are not ok with dog meat, what are the reasons, & what is your take on the reasons that another culture is; if it's not upbringing/tradition/culture, then what. Presumably not just random that one set of people coincidentally find something acceptable which just so happens to be part of their culture, & vice versa.
    Last edited by sammyc; 10-02-2019 at 01:08 AM. Reason: too many presumablies by far. also clarity, hopefully.
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    Re: PETA kills animals

    Quote Originally Posted by sammyc View Post
    I'm not trying to be anything; I don't have any pretension about my argument-making skills, usually preferring to read others' posts & click like to indicate that's what I think, only put better - I only post in threads like this to stand up & be counted kinda thing. Certainly not to argue for point-scoring's sake or be a smart alec, anyway.

    My point was just that there are species considered acceptable to eat, say rabbit, or use the fur of, in this country (by some), but less so if it's someone's own pet. I'm not saying you are basing your judgment on the acceptability of dog as meat based on your individual animal & not as a species, obviously you aren't. I honestly don't know if/how far in other cultures they square that re dogs, ie in considering dogs vs one's own pet. But; in the case of animal testing & your being ok with it (to a point, & in an ideal world would do away with, I imagine) you couldn't contemplate that being your beagle I take it; so in that instance, there is a difference in the way you judge if something is acceptable for a dog vs your own dog. Sorry if that seems like a poor point to you, it's not meant to be of the "now you're just being silly", variety, just seems a fair point to me.



    I mean that if you're saying it's not culture that means you are not ok with dog meat, what are the reasons, & what is your take on the reasons that another culture is; if it's not upbringing/tradition/culture, then what. Presumably not just random that one set of people coincidentally find something acceptable which just so happens to be part of their culture, & vice versa.
    In an ideal world there would be no need for pharmaceuticals in the first place. It's a reasonable point that it's inconsistent of me to allow for testing on some dogs but not my own; having said that, if you had a child, and they needed to harvest the organs of a child to save 1000 sick ones (WARNING: difficult philosophical discussion! do not enter!) you'd obviously say 'nah find another one please'.

    There are long-established norms, for good or bad, about what animals are acceptable to kill, eat and use, which differ in each country. These are based on their relationship to us, their usefulness, and in some small part at least, how intelligent we deem them. Animal species are very different to each other. We don't just randomly decide 'you're for the killing, you're for the cuddling'. Presumably in China they developed a substantially different relationship to dogs, like they've presumably developed a different relationship to horses in France. I don't know the reasons for that, and I wouldn't eat dog, but neither would I share a video on facebook about how evil the dog-eating festival in China is, because if I'm gonna go around telling everyone else how virtuous I am, I'd do it on something that's causing more suffering, such as the war in Yemen.

    One thing I notice in animal rights' activist is the belief that animal lives are equal or even superior to humans. I don't understand where this viewpoint comes from. It comes at the same time as an absolute lack of forgiveness or understanding of human sins, a sort of exceptionalism that thinks that because we're capable of being moral, and that we're not, that humans are evil, whereas animals are all innocent. Just like I'm not a cultural relativist, I feel happy believing that some lives are worth more than others, whether you're comparing an ant to a cat or Einstein to a jihadist. To claim that all animals are equal is ignorant of the history and characteristics of those species and their relationships to us, and prefers to believe that we eat lamb but not dogs for no reason other than randomness.

    If an area was overrun with edible pests that were eating all the produce, would you be ok with killing (humanely) and eating them? Let's say a particularly copious and tasty breed of rabbit kept on eating all the greens, and the likes of George Monbiot said 'killing and eating these animals will do good'. Would you do it then?

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    Re: PETA kills animals

    Quote Originally Posted by wazzickle View Post
    In an ideal world there would be no need for pharmaceuticals in the first place. It's a reasonable point that it's inconsistent of me to allow for testing on some dogs but not my own; having said that, if you had a child, and they needed to harvest the organs of a child to save 1000 sick ones (WARNING: difficult philosophical discussion! do not enter!) you'd obviously say 'nah find another one please'.
    These things are more into moral maze territory, though; if I had to make a difficult moral decision I guess we'd see what I'd do on a case by case basis & if under pressure. Yes there will be an added level of pain if the safety of something close to you is at stake, it wouldn't mean you thought the sacrificing of the something or someone else was ok or right, just (arguably) necessary. There are plenty of areas where necessity doesn't come into it - cruelty-free toiletries & household products, for example, everybody should buy those, there is absolutely no good reason not to. Likewise people aren't looking at their takeaway & going 'this pains me, but it has to be done.'

    There are long-established norms, for good or bad, about what animals are acceptable to kill, eat and use, which differ in each country. These are based on their relationship to us, their usefulness, and in some small part at least, how intelligent we deem them. Animal species are very different to each other. We don't just randomly decide 'you're for the killing, you're for the cuddling'. Presumably in China they developed a substantially different relationship to dogs, like they've presumably developed a different relationship to horses in France. I don't know the reasons for that, and I wouldn't eat dog, but neither would I share a video on facebook about how evil the dog-eating festival in China is, because if I'm gonna go around telling everyone else how virtuous I am, I'd do it on something that's causing more suffering, such as the war in Yemen.
    Long-established norms are low on my list of good reasons for anything, as is probably fairly obvious. If we start by saying that different cultures have developed different long-standing relationships to species, and that we largely go along with our own culture, then we/you have been influenced in our thinking to at least some degree and can assume that if transplanted into another culture, we would hold their views. So how far are our views as individuals our own? The main problem I have with the different relationships with animals line is that for me, at its simplest, you have a dog a horse and a cow in a room & their fate depends on whether a Frenchman or a Brit is going to come in. That makes no moral sense to that animal, & nor does it to me even if you were to argue that we (as a culture) have over time now arrived at the correct/optimum set of beliefs, & every other culture is wrong, & I don't buy that.

    One thing I notice in animal rights' activist is the belief that animal lives are equal or even superior to humans. I don't understand where this viewpoint comes from. It comes at the same time as an absolute lack of forgiveness or understanding of human sins, a sort of exceptionalism that thinks that because we're capable of being moral, and that we're not, that humans are evil, whereas animals are all innocent. Just like I'm not a cultural relativist, I feel happy believing that some lives are worth more than others, whether you're comparing an ant to a cat or Einstein to a jihadist. To claim that all animals are equal is ignorant of the history and characteristics of those species and their relationships to us, and prefers to believe that we eat lamb but not dogs for no reason other than randomness.
    As above, even granting that sheep and dogs are different, I don't believe that difference is a life & death-determining one. No-one needs to go out of their way to step on an ant, no-one 'needs' imo to eat lamb. I'm not getting into humanity & evil here, relative to animals or otherwise, it's a whole other topic, & I find it extremely difficult to think in terms of human worth relative to another; Einstein after all did not create himself, it's largely accident of birth (+ subsequent influences & outside events ofc) who we are & where we rank on any sort of scale & if accident of birth means a life of violence, 'evil', extremism &c, that's its own tragedy.

    If an area was overrun with edible pests that were eating all the produce, would you be ok with killing (humanely) and eating them? Let's say a particularly copious and tasty breed of rabbit kept on eating all the greens, and the likes of George Monbiot said 'killing and eating these animals will do good'. Would you do it then?
    Firstly: tastiness doesn't come into it for me. Secondly: almost certainly not, no. If the rabbits were going to *maybe* upset the balance of nature and that at some point in the future we *may* run out of greens & expire as a species - still no. Rabid dogs, a tiger about to maul my family, presumably yes, but (key point) still with regret.

    Just to get back to the OP of hard-line activism being the wrong approach - if a similar stunt was staged abroad but with the aim of getting people not to eat dogs, & it was very effective, would that not be worth doing if gentle persuasion hadn't worked?
    Last edited by sammyc; 10-02-2019 at 04:11 PM.
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    Re: PETA kills animals

    Quote Originally Posted by wazzickle View Post
    In terms of basic primal instinct, as a conscious, conscientious entity, there exists some line of things where even if it tasted great, you wouldn't eat it, right? Like, human flesh, for example?
    There are plenty of examples of human cannibalism both as a cultural norm in certain tribes (less so now) and also in extremis were its a matter of life and death for survivors after catastrophic circumstances.
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    Re: PETA kills animals

    Quote Originally Posted by Ttaskmaster View Post
    I also tend to value animal life above humans,
    i don't agree with that tendency.

    Situation- a bloke with a knife attacks my son and his dog.
    I want the dog to attack the man and take the knife attack while my son escapes. Dog might die.

    Situation- a policeman on a horse is attacked by a man with a machette.
    I want the horse to take the damage and potentially escape with the policeman on it, or even smash the machette wielder in the skull with it's hooves, even if it bleeds out on the floor and dies after.

    Situation - a large boat full of people has a mine attached and people will die or be terribly injured if it goes off.
    But a porpoise is trained to remove it and take it away and potentially the porpoise might get killed in doing so.

    Situation- a family is starving, but they can survive by eating animals. Guess where this is going.....?

    I don't want my son taking a knife slash across his forearms as he tries to protect himself and bleed out terrifed as the nutter cuts him up, but the dog escapes unscathed
    I don't want the Policeman's family devoid of a father and husband, but the horse to escape alive
    I don't want the ship to sink and the people be injured and drown - while the porpoise frolics in the sea if it was possible for it to save the people.

    I don't think I have a tendency towards peoples lives being lesser than animals.

    So do you really mean that?
    .
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    Re: PETA kills animals

    Quote Originally Posted by wazzickle View Post
    I'm not talking about intelligence, but if I were, I'm pretty sure you'd struggle to find legit studies that claim sheep are intelligent. They're about the stupidest animals out there. We've bred them to be stupid.
    Define what is legit.
    And I mean define what is actually accepted by the scientific community as legit, not just what you think it is.

    Researchers conducting various studies at univerities in Cambridge, China, Australia, California and Germany all seem to think they know something about the matter...
    http://www.bbc.com/earth/story/20170...elpless-either
    https://journals.plos.org/plosone/ar...l.pone.0163249
    https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/sci...y-thought.html

    Quote Originally Posted by wazzickle View Post
    Dogs are not as intelligent as lots of other mammals, but they have other qualities that lend them to being good pals for us humans.
    While other animals have qualities that lend them to being dinner. What's your point?

    Quote Originally Posted by wazzickle View Post
    In terms of basic primal instinct, as a conscious, conscientious entity, there exists some line of things where even if it tasted great, you wouldn't eat it, right? Like, human flesh, for example?
    In theory, yes.
    But in truth, despite so many people swearing off meat for whatever reason, I find many of them struggle around the smell of cooking bacon!!

    Quote Originally Posted by wazzickle View Post
    In terms of 'being one of them', lots of people tread the fine line of not eating meat but then not talking about it unless asked.
    Lots of people secretly own a BlackBerry, or are into very weird kinky stuff... doesn't change the social stigma of it, just because you're not blurting it out at every opportunity.

    Quote Originally Posted by wazzickle View Post
    if you had a child, and they needed to harvest the organs of a child to save 1000 sick ones (WARNING: difficult philosophical discussion! do not enter!) you'd obviously say 'nah find another one please'.
    It's not difficult at all.
    There is no need to test anything on animals, ever, ever, ever. If it needs to be tested, find a human. Pay them, or sentence them. There are billions available, you'll get more accurate and appropriate results, and your stuff will reach market quicker.
    If you need to harvest organs from a child, find a dead one.

    Quote Originally Posted by wazzickle View Post
    One thing I notice in animal rights' activist is the belief that animal lives are equal or even superior to humans. I don't understand where this viewpoint comes from.
    Animals aren't retarded enough to destroy the very planet that supports their existence, in the course of their daily lives?

    Quote Originally Posted by wazzickle View Post
    It comes at the same time as an absolute lack of forgiveness or understanding of human sins, a sort of exceptionalism that thinks that because we're capable of being moral, and that we're not, that humans are evil, whereas animals are all innocent.
    God gave us dominion over all the other animals.
    But that dominion means we rule, we govern, we hold, we direct. We have certain responsibilities to look after these animals, not to utterly eradicate them from existence purely for our own amusement.
    So yes, we are immoral, evil little beggars.

    Quote Originally Posted by wazzickle View Post
    To claim that all animals are equal is ignorant of the history and characteristics of those species and their relationships to us
    Who's claiming that?
    We're just asserting that animals don't deserve to be treated cruelly.

    Quote Originally Posted by wazzickle View Post
    If an area was overrun with edible pests that were eating all the produce, would you be ok with killing (humanely) and eating them?
    Anyone in the UK who has eaten rabbit ought to be perfectly fine with this.

    Quote Originally Posted by Zak33 View Post
    i don't agree with that tendency.
    Well it's my tendency in this case, so you actually can't disagree with it, I'm afraid...

    Quote Originally Posted by Zak33 View Post
    I want the dog to attack the man and take the knife attack while my son escapes. Dog might die.
    I'd want them both to attack, drop the guy and walk away unkilled.

    Quote Originally Posted by Zak33 View Post
    I want the horse to take the damage and potentially escape with the policeman on it
    I'd rather the cop took a hit and survived, in the course of ending the machete bloke.

    Quote Originally Posted by Zak33 View Post
    Situation - a large boat full of people has a mine attached and people will die or be terribly injured if it goes off.
    Oh dear. How sad. Never mind.
    A human frogman will likely be faster than a porpoise, but if they can't get one there in time then I'm afraid it's curtains.

    Quote Originally Posted by Zak33 View Post
    But a porpoise is trained to remove it and take it away and potentially the porpoise might get killed in doing so.
    If it understands and chooses to do so, then fine, but it must have that choice.

    Quote Originally Posted by Zak33 View Post
    I don't want my son taking a knife slash across his forearms as he tries to protect himself and bleed out terrifed as the nutter cuts him up, but the dog escapes unscathed
    It's purely that dog's choice as to whether he fights or flees, though, just as it'd be mine and your son's as to whether we'd each step in to protect that dog.

    Plenty of very highly trained humans have panicked and run away from a dangerous situation.
    Plenty of dogs have saved their family members even without any training, and many dogs are chosen (and/or bred) for their instinctively protective nature.
    Both had the choice, both made the choice.

    Quote Originally Posted by Zak33 View Post
    I don't want the Policeman's family devoid of a father and husband, but the horse to escape alive
    Cop horses are often used in riot response units, even in countries that allow a lot of gun ownership/carry... One round and that cop is gone anyway, with the horse not even in the equation.

    Quote Originally Posted by Zak33 View Post
    I don't want the ship to sink and the people be injured and drown - while the porpoise frolics in the sea if it was possible for it to save the people.
    Again, not your decision or even theirs, but up to the porpoise.

    Quote Originally Posted by Zak33 View Post
    I don't think I have a tendency towards peoples lives being lesser than animals. So do you really mean that?
    But *I* do, which is exactly what I said, and yes I mean it.
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    Re: PETA kills animals

    Thanks for replying - this is where being an Admin is hard. I argue no more.
    .
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    "The second you aren't paying attention to the tool you're using, it will take your fingers from you. It does not know sympathy." |
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    Re: PETA kills animals

    Quote Originally Posted by Zak33 View Post
    Thanks for replying - this is where being an Admin is hard. I argue no more.
    I'm not really arguing with you or your points. Just asserting a difference of personal beliefs in a hypothetical world.
    If you care to offer further thoughts, they would be welcomed and respected, totally separate from any impartiality you may have as Admin.
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