I Apologise

[peterb]

Thank you all for the words of support. I don't much enjoy behaving like this, it's embarrassing and causes bad feeling for others. I have decided to stay on but ask that I'm not treated any differently to anyone else - I have to learn to walk away and control this thing. Love you all and thank you.

Edit: PS I'm going to avoid the Brexit thread!

Good news!

[Saracen999]

Thank you all for the words of support. I don't much enjoy behaving like this, it's embarrassing and causes bad feeling for others. I have decided to stay on but ask that I'm not treated any differently to anyone else - I have to learn to walk away and control this thing. Love you all and thank you.

Edit: PS I'm going to avoid the Brexit thread!

Glad you're staying.

As for "behaving", blueball, this is how I see it. if you're ill, you're ill. It matters not how, or even much why, but merely that you are. That's why you shouldn't be embarrassed.

It's actually a rather sad reflection on society, not on you, that you should feel embarrassed about something that wasn't your fault, that you didn't ask for, and that was the result of service to our nation. You have no more need to be embarrassed than if you'd broken a leg in a motor accident, or suddenly found out you had a physical ailment like, oh, cancer or something.

So, "treat you different"? I hope not, as it'd be patronising. But be understanding? That's different.

[blueball]

If anyone is interested...

http://gwi.sutherlandweb.co.uk/mod.html

How to be used in an illegal medical experiment!

[Saracen999]

If anyone is interested...

http://gwi.sutherlandweb.co.uk/mod.html

How to be used in an illegal medical experiment!

If you mean what I think you mean, then when I said "it matters not how", etc, I most certainly didn't have that in mind.

If you were involved in that, then I truly hope you were fully informed first. And by fully, I mean exactly what was going on, and what the risks were. But of course, I rather doubt it. And if not, then no matter what their motives (presumably, protect troops against these agents) that sounds more like something I'd expect from Joseph Mengele than the UK "establishment".

Small bleeping wonder you've got .... issues. Who wouldn't have?

That's just .... words fail me. Utterly fail me. It is such an abuse of trust.


"investigational new drug"? Really? Wow. That really is doublespeak.

[Millennium]

Glad you are staying. Apols for sp I have a new keyboard it's cruddy.

https://www.drugbank.ca/drugs/DB00545


Weight
Average: 181.2117
Monoisotopic: 181.09770267
Chemical Formula
C9H13N2O2
InChI Key
RVOLLAQWKVFTGE-UHFFFAOYSA-N
InChI
InChI=1S/C9H13N2O2/c1-10(2)9(12)13-8-5-4-6-11(3)7-8/h4-7H,1-3H3/q+1
IUPAC Name
3-[(dimethylcarbamoyl)oxy]-1-methylpyridin-1-ium

That at looks decidedly iffy. Any chem majors wish to comment?? methylpyridin what * *?

My advice is seaweed tablets, time, rest and water. Also gut health and I wouldn't wish to offer more advice as I am not ~a doc.

[Disturbedguy]

Thank you all for the words of support. I don't much enjoy behaving like this, it's embarrassing and causes bad feeling for others. I have decided to stay on but ask that I'm not treated any differently to anyone else - I have to learn to walk away and control this thing. Love you all and thank you.

Edit: PS I'm going to avoid the Brexit thread!

Great news!!

[peterb]

Glad you are staying. Apols for sp I have a new keyboard it's cruddy.

https://www.drugbank.ca/drugs/DB00545


Weight
Average: 181.2117
Monoisotopic: 181.09770267
Chemical Formula
C9H13N2O2
InChI Key
RVOLLAQWKVFTGE-UHFFFAOYSA-N
InChI
InChI=1S/C9H13N2O2/c1-10(2)9(12)13-8-5-4-6-11(3)7-8/h4-7H,1-3H3/q+1
IUPAC Name
3-[(dimethylcarbamoyl)oxy]-1-methylpyridin-1-ium

That at looks decidedly iffy. Any chem majors wish to comment?? methylpyridin what * *?

My advice is seaweed tablets, time, rest and water. Also gut health and I wouldn't wish to offer more advice as I am not ~a doc.

Disclaimer: I am neither a medic, chemist nor pharmacist.

Pyridostigmine is an Acetylcholinesterase inhibitor. Acetylcholinesterase is an enzyme that stops nerves from continual firing once they have been triggered.

Nerve agents are also acetylcholinesterase inhibitors, but they bind very strongly to the receptors that control acetylcholinesterase production. Preventing nerves from stopping firing leads to convulsions and death.

The theory is that by taking a very low dose of Pyridostigmine before a nerve agent attack, it binds to some of the receptors that control acetylcholinesterase production, but only weakly. Then after a nerve agent attack, the administration of atropine breaks the weak binding of the Pyridostigmine and so allows some acetylcholinesterase to be produced, giving a chance of survival of the individual.

As I say, I am not a chemist, pharmacist or a medic, and this is a very simplified explanation.

[MrRockliffe]

Edit: PS I'm going to avoid the Brexit thread!

I don't know the history here, but I've done the very same thing myself; I avoid all such topics because I know I'm naturally an opinionated person, and one way I have of stopping myself from replying to something and saying something I'll regret, is by not reading that thing in the first place

[Saracen999]

I don't know the history here, but I've done the very same thing myself; I avoid all such topics because I know I'm naturally an opinionated person, and one way I have of stopping myself from replying to something and saying something I'll regret, is by not reading that thing in the first place

There seems to be something particularly poisonous about Brexit, though.

I've had all sorts of discussions on here, and other forums, for getting for for 20 years, and on all sorts of subjects including some very emotive and meaningful ones, including just about anything else on politics, and on things like religion.

Usually, though there might be a spark or two, most people manage to disagree, even intensely, but do it courteously. I've made some good friends on here because we disagree, and have had those arguments. When you can't get away with a bland assertion, when people make you work for it (and you, them) it seems to breed a mutual respect for why people have an opinion even if you disagree with them.

Brexit seems somehow different. More entrenched, less tolerant. And, it seems, people are far less willing to accept that another view even could have merit, let alone change minds. And that includes me.

Why it is so poisonous I don't know, but the one thing that does strike me .... after about 2 years of arguments on here, I can't think of anybody that's changed their minds as a result. Which tends tk suggest it's all a bit pointless. Falling out over it certainly is.

[MrRockliffe]

There seems to be something particularly poisonous about Brexit, though.

I've had all sorts of discussions on here, and other forums, for getting for for 20 years, and on all sorts of subjects including some very emotive and meaningful ones, including just about anything else on politics, and on things like religion.

Usually, though there might be a spark or two, most people manage to disagree, even intensely, but do it courteously. I've made some good friends on here because we disagree, and have had those arguments. When you can't get away with a bland assertion, when people make you work for it (and you, them) it seems to breed a mutual respect for why people have an opinion even if you disagree with them.

Brexit seems somehow different. More entrenched, less tolerant. And, it seems, people are far less willing to accept that another view even could have merit, let alone change minds. And that includes me.

Why it is so poisonous I don't know, but the one thing that does strike me .... after about 2 years of arguments on here, I can't think of anybody that's changed their minds as a result. Which tends tk suggest it's all a bit pointless. Falling out over it certainly is.

I think it's because it's divisive in nature; from the start it has been played as 1 or the other, with no real in-between.

I voted on what I felt was right, based on my own research and future hopes, and I wouldn't change. I'd go as far as to say media (including the social variety) is cancerous, so I ignore it.

Anyhow.

I'm glad things are moving on between you both; it shows a tremendous amount of maturity and emotional intelligence - something we could use a lot of at work!

[TeePee]

There seems to be something particularly poisonous about Brexit, though.

I've had all sorts of discussions on here, and other forums, for getting for for 20 years, and on all sorts of subjects including some very emotive and meaningful ones, including just about anything else on politics, and on things like religion.

Usually, though there might be a spark or two, most people manage to disagree, even intensely, but do it courteously. I've made some good friends on here because we disagree, and have had those arguments. When you can't get away with a bland assertion, when people make you work for it (and you, them) it seems to breed a mutual respect for why people have an opinion even if you disagree with them.

Brexit seems somehow different. More entrenched, less tolerant. And, it seems, people are far less willing to accept that another view even could have merit, let alone change minds. And that includes me.

Why it is so poisonous I don't know, but the one thing that does strike me .... after about 2 years of arguments on here, I can't think of anybody that's changed their minds as a result. Which tends tk suggest it's all a bit pointless. Falling out over it certainly is.

There is, and it's weird. Because people take very strong stances, when the vast majority of people are fairly moderate. I'm pretty sure we can all agree there are a lot of good things about being a part of Europe, and a lot of bad things too. Some have the opinion that the good outweighs the bad, some have the reverse. The hard liners are few and far between. Yet people like to defend their position and get very upset when challenged.

But then I guess it joins the list of 'Single-issue' political opinions, like Abortion, that upset people even when they take a moderate opinion.

[blueball]

Disclaimer: I am neither a medic, chemist nor pharmacist.

Pyridostigmine is an Acetylcholinesterase inhibitor. Acetylcholinesterase is an enzyme that stops nerves from continual firing once they have been triggered.

Nerve agents are also acetylcholinesterase inhibitors, but they bind very strongly to the receptors that control acetylcholinesterase production. Preventing nerves from stopping firing leads to convulsions and death.

The theory is that by taking a very low dose of Pyridostigmine before a nerve agent attack, it binds to some of the receptors that control acetylcholinesterase production, but only weakly. Then after a nerve agent attack, the administration of atropine breaks the weak binding of the Pyridostigmine and so allows some acetylcholinesterase to be produced, giving a chance of survival of the individual.

As I say, I am not a chemist, pharmacist or a medic, and this is a very simplified explanation.

That's pretty much accurate Pete. Of interest is the fact that PB plus atropine work against Soman nerve agent and not Sarin. Iraq had Sarin but not Soman so a pointless exercise.

I don't myself believe that PB is the main cause. I personally know of three UK veterans who are ill with GWS but who never left the UK; however, they were given the vaccinations in preparation to deploying to theatre. Guess where I point my finger?

[blueball]

If you mean what I think you mean, then when I said "it matters not how", etc, I most certainly didn't have that in mind.

If you were involved in that, then I truly hope you were fully informed first. And by fully, I mean exactly what was going on, and what the risks were. But of course, I rather doubt it. And if not, then no matter what their motives (presumably, protect troops against these agents) that sounds more like something I'd expect from Joseph Mengele than the UK "establishment".

Small bleeping wonder you've got .... issues. Who wouldn't have?

That's just .... words fail me. Utterly fail me. It is such an abuse of trust.


"investigational new drug"? Really? Wow. That really is doublespeak.

The issue is that we were not fully informed, in fact many were ordered to have the injections. My unit was ordered to take PB in Standing Orders!

As the event took place before 1994, Crown Immunity was still in place and we cannot sue against it by UK Law!

GWS is prevalent in UK, US and Australia. In France it doesn't exist but they didn't vaccinate their troops. Around 1/3 of those deployed are affected and there are strong indications that it is pot luck as to whether your individual DNA will be affected (as per MoD results paper http://gwi.sutherlandweb.co.uk/docs/results.pdf Page 7 Central Paragraph and http://www.ei-resource.org/news/gulf...-investigated/).

[TooNice]

Brexit seems somehow different. More entrenched, less tolerant. And, it seems, people are far less willing to accept that another view even could have merit, let alone change minds. And that includes me.

Why it is so poisonous I don't know, but the one thing that does strike me .... after about 2 years of arguments on here, I can't think of anybody that's changed their minds as a result. Which tends tk suggest it's all a bit pointless. Falling out over it certainly is.

I think that one thing that differentiates Brexit from many other sensitive subject is that it is not just about principles (for instance, we may have an moral opinion on the death penalty, but few arguing for or against likely know someone on the death row) where, after a lengthy discussion, both side can walk away while agreeing to disagree knowing that it isn't something that is going to affect them directly. And to be fair, I don't think it is common for people to change their opinion if they already have a fairly strong one in those sensitive topics).

Brexit on the other hand, affect more people in a more direct manner. And I am not referring to the forecast of what might happen but what will definitely happen, if delivered in the way the government want. Debate on principles still take place, but few can walk away thinking that it won't matter to them in the end. And on top of it, there is also a certain permanence to the outcome.

[philehidiot]

Stop turning this into a Brexit thread after half the participants said they were avoiding Brexit threads!

[Saracen999]

Stop turning this into a Brexit thread after half the participants said they were avoiding Brexit threads!

Ah, but there's a difference between a thread about Brexit, and a thread about Brexit threads.

But .... point taken. This thread isn't about either.