I think you'll find people like to act as if they were good, decent, open and tolerant, especially if they know they're being watched... But about 60% of the population are most definitely closet [CENSORED]s, which becomes apparent when they are really pushed on it.Originally Posted by [GSV]Trig
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60%, and then here's me wondering why we're screwed, as a race, a country..
You really think its that high?
Based on various experiments like the Milgram one and all that... yes. Probably higher, in fact, but for generalisation purposes, at least 60%.
However, I don't think we're screwed... not as long as we have a strong sense of social responsibility keeping us in check.
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See what the GW brings, social responsibility and moral seem to be missing...
Okay, first rule of political statistics - never, EVER take them at face value.
For example, I looked into those police "cuts" numbers after my local BBC radio presenter made a point of them. It was a year or so ago, so the following is from memory. That "22,000 cut" figure (whicb is what I remember the figure as being) only works if you pick a very specific year as the start point because it was a peak (I used ONS and Home Office data).
For example my (hypothetical) income for 2005-2016 was :-
2005 £30k
2006 £31k
2007 £33k
2008 £29k
2009 £30k
2010 £150k
2011 £32k
2012 £30k
2013 £28k
2014 £28k
2015 £30k
2016 £15k.
So .... my (invented) income was cut by £120k between 2010 and 2015. Wow. Devastating.
But not as bad as 2010 to 2016, which saw a £135k cut. How a I going to afford to live.
But wait .... if I look at 2005 to 2015 instead of starting in 2010 ..... erm, my pay cut was ..... £0.
If I go 2005 to 2016, oh bother, I cut my pay by 50%. EEEEK.
But hold on ..... what if I added that in 2010, my bumper year, I had a book published that earned me a one-off £120k. Take that one-off addition out, as I'd been working on it in spare time for years, and now my income in £2005, 2010 and 2015 was ..... identical at £30k.
If you average (arimetic mean) that decade, it'll come out pretty close to £30k, with modest variance provided you exclude that (so far) one-off book deal.
If, however, you include the one-off, that same calcukation will give my aversge a ual income as £42k. But which is the more accurate reflection of the real picture? If ypu were to use those figures to predict the next 2 or 3 years, which would you use ... £30k or £42k? In the absence of further data, by far the best guide would be £30k, no?
Except .... remember my 2016 figure? A mere £15k. Disaster.
Would it change the picture if i pointed out that the reason it was down by half was that I took 6 months off, so only worked half the year. So in reality, I'm stick pretty much dead on average if you include "number of months worked" and factor it up.
Except .... you knew it was coming, didn't you .... the reason I only worked 6 months sas my publisher gave me a 4 month expenses-paid world cruise to work on and finish my next book, and the final couple of months was a 6 week promotional tour, and a couple of weeks break before starting the rest of the 7-book contract, earning me a fixed £250k per book, plus a percentage expected to top £1m per book.
So .... look back in 5 or 6 years time and far from 2016 being a disaster, it turned me from £30k/year, to £1m+/year.
There are several statistical lessons to be drawn from that, even if I got a bit whimsical in the "7-book deal" bit, the first of which I've already stated ... never, EVER take statistics and especially self-serving political ones, at face value. A half-decent statistican can make them sit up and beg, like a well-trained dog.
The even bigger issue, though, is one I alluded to in previous posts.
When you ask about "benefits" of all those "cuts" you're missing a critical piece of the puzzle which is ....what would have happened to the economy if we hadn't reigned in the deficit? If we hadn't taken unpleasant steps to get the deficit (not the debt, that's still rising, just a lot slower) down? I pointed out some very plausible possibilities, and if you limit it to just bond rates and costs, we would likely be looking at tens of billions extra per year just financing the debt as it is now, never mind that without those cuts it would now be far higher than it is.
The problem is that we don't have and cannot have data on what would have happened. But Greece, Venezuela, several african states ought to be an object lesson in where unaffordable levels of debt lead if markets lose confidence and hike rates or, far worse, they won't lend at all and you end up at the IMF, ECB etc looking for bailouts because, as a country, you're bankrupt.
At the very least, we know we avoided an economic tailspin which at a minimum could have been what happened without the "cuts" but we'll never know because we cut. It certainly took something extraordinary to get the likes of Vince Cable to go with it, however reluctantly. If the LibDems didn't believe it wax the lesser to two evils, why do it? Ministerial cars? Even I don't believe they're that venal.
The best reason for doing something unpleasant painful and unpopular is that the alternative is much worse. Which would you rather, amputate a gangrenous leg, or die fro the infection? Go through horrible doses of chemo that might work, or forego that nastiness and die much sooner? Sometimes, even harmful action is better than inaction.
Last edited by Saracen999; 07-12-2019 at 02:26 AM.
A lesson learned from PeterB about dignity in adversity, so Peter, In Memorium, "Onwards and Upwards".
That would be putting words my mouth.
In expressing hope that you are also including issues of Islamophobia within the conservative party, I was hoping you would take notice of the fact that your constant Labour bashing with little mention of the wrong in other parties (and if you tell me you don't see any then it would only confirm that you are only looking for dirt on one party) give an impression of excessive bias.. And if that was the case, then I am better off just glossing over.
It is easy to find dirt, and I could just as easily post one link of something negative out of the Conservative, Lib Dem, SNP (Labour too but you have them covered) and criticise / ridicule them day after day. But sooner or later, it would just sound like the biased rant of a <insert party> hater. It is hard to picture constructive discussions out of it.
Which sounds fair and balanced but here's the thing, I'm not scouring there internet for dirt on anyone. I don't have the time to try to do an exhaustive, or even deep search in an attempt to provide an balanced and detailed breakdown on Hexus. I'm simply posting things that come across timelines and headlines and which I think are worth considering. Everyone else is free to do the same and honestly it would be good if they did.
Secondly, I would generally expect the dirty laundry from all parties be aired on the news at election time. Whereas coverage etc. might need to be balanced it doesn't mean the outcome of that coverage will be. It's entirely possible for one or more parties to have more problems than another.
Plenty of people have covered cuts and economics better than I could. I've focused a bit on the anti-Semitism because there's not been a lot of talk about it on here and it's a significant issue. Are the Tories facing the same crisis? I haven't seen it. Please correct me if I'm wrong. I would like more information on all of this if it's out there.
Ultimately this isn't a media outlet, it's a discussion forum.
I think Labour is a mess right now. It's talking a far more extreme stance than it has in a long time, it's got major in-house problems and a weak leader with questionable principles. I certainly don't want them in power this time.
Weighing it in the balance the Tories come out as less bad than Labour by a good margin, imo.
I won't apologise for saying what I think is the case right now.
That could just as easily be the Tories, which is why I won't be voting for either.
Pretty much, I've not got a tally of who's the worst but this PDF by antisemitism.org.uk contains some notable examples, then there's the recent investigation into three Conservative candidates for this election.
I suspect it's a case of there being anti-whatever all over the place and political parties taking people the same place, that and the media (mainly newspapers IMO) are fairly partisan.
Unless you look at the reports about who owns the media and what the implications to their bank balance might be if we leave the EU, and Labour get in...
Why would the show us an unbiased view when, so I hear, the EU are trying to bring in regulation into the MSM meaning they can post and old crap, or if Labour get in JC is on about closing tax loopholes..
These 3 by any chance?
https://metro.co.uk/2019/12/07/tory-...r2wo6S-y2dZSPw
https://www.itv.com/news/2019-12-07/...-R3b86JO6s7i5g
Just in terms of parity, have you read that PDF? I just did. The big difference between what's recorded there and the Labour party's problem are the phrases you'll see repeatedly in the PDF - 'was fired', 'resigned', 'was suspended'.
No-one here is suggesting the Tory party are squeaky clean or don't have issues. Let's be clear about that. But attempting to deflect the problems Labour is facing by suggesting that there's no difference between the major parties is simply inaccurate. Beyond election-time mud-slinging (my party is better than yours), either anti-semitism/racism is an important issue or it's not - and it is. It's important.
Perhaps the biggest issue with Labour in this area is that they have been weak in responding to the incidents. Again, the apparent reality is that Labour have a problem with anti-semitism on a level not seen in the other major parties. It may well arise from their anti-Israel/anti-Zionist stance where they simply struggle to separate being against certain Israeli policies from being against Israel as a whole, and where that overflows into antagonism towards Jewish people anywhere. That a battle that they're going to have fight and be a lot more diligent about, especially where Corbyn and others are evidently very conscious about providing a listening ear to Hamas and others like them. They'll need make sure that any issues are political/policy issues, targeted in a discrete way, and crack down hard on anyone who in their party who pursues, or allows, attacks on Jews, Jewish communities and organisations in general. There are many Jewish people who are critical of Israeli politics and would likely support Labour in such criticisms but evidently Labour have allowed things to get too loose, go too far, and for other elements to rise up. They need to get serious with this - if they can, and sort it out. But what with identity politics being what it is, I wonder if they can deal with this effectively. Label all the Jews together as hook-nosed oppressors of Palestine, an insidious force manipulating the world and a threat to human-rights? Let's just have them all wear arm-bands shall we?
That's what it looks to many right now. A clear line needs to be drawn. It's not good. And that's true for all parties, it just seems that Labour is far worse than anyone else in this department at the moment - and again, the complaints from their own party members and supporters on this issue should make that clear.
No trees were harmed in the creation of this message. However, many electrons were displaced and terribly inconvenienced.
Whoa there, i wasn't deflecting. You asked if the Tories were facing the same crisis and i said pretty much and provided some examples, i even said how i suspect it's a case of there being anti-whatever all over the place and political parties taking people from the same place.
What you, or anyone. want to make of that is up to them but don't shoot the messenger.
tbh unless you have an investigation of the same scale ran by the same people but against the Tory party you'll not get a decent comparison.
How is it remotely true that the Tories are pretty much facing the same crisis? The sheer number of complaints, plus the report to the ECHR etc. is not at all comparable between the two parties. Is it that hard to admit that Labour have an issue in this regard in a way that the Tories don't? Or at least to state that that's what the available evidence indicates and it's a cause for concern?Whoa there, i wasn't deflecting. You asked if the Tories were facing the same crisis and i said pretty much and provided some examples, i even said how i suspect it's a case of there being anti-whatever all over the place and political parties taking people from the same place.
What you, or anyone. want to make of that is up to them but don't shoot the messenger.
No trees were harmed in the creation of this message. However, many electrons were displaced and terribly inconvenienced.
And this is why i don't post in threads related to politics on Hexus, someone asks if the Tories are facing the same crisis, provide evidence including the recent investigation into three Conservative candidates for this election, insert caveats, gets accused of deflecting and not being remotely true.
Have fun I'm outahere.
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