Page 2 of 2 FirstFirst 12
Results 17 to 32 of 32

Thread: Push a Fat Man?

  1. #17
    MCRN Tachi Ttaskmaster's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2013
    Location
    Reading, UK
    Posts
    6,917
    Thanks
    673
    Thanked
    806 times in 668 posts
    • Ttaskmaster's system
      • Motherboard:
      • Aorus Master X670E
      • CPU:
      • Ryzen 7800X3D
      • Memory:
      • 32GB Corsair Dominator DDR5 6000MHz
      • Storage:
      • Samsung Evo 120GB and Seagate Baracuda 2TB
      • Graphics card(s):
      • Aorus Master 4090
      • PSU:
      • EVGA Supernova G2 1000W
      • Case:
      • Lian Li V3000 Plus
      • Operating System:
      • Win11
      • Monitor(s):
      • Gigabyte M32U
      • Internet:
      • 900Mbps Gigaclear WHOOOOOOOOOOOO!!!!!!!!

    Re: Push a Fat Man?

    Quote Originally Posted by Smudger View Post
    What are these people doing hanging around on tram tracks anyway?
    Tram rails, in a city? That could be anyone!
    Probably my guys, sorting out one of the many leaks you keep demanding we fix.

    Quote Originally Posted by Spreadie View Post
    Looking for ways to justify murder is not the work of a rational mind.
    No, but it is the work of highly paid lawyers, criminal profilers, psychologists, novelists and screenwriters... !!
    _______________________________________________________________________
    Quote Originally Posted by Mark Tyson
    like a chihuahua urinating on a towering inferno...

  2. #18
    Spreadie
    Guest

    Re: Push a Fat Man?

    Quote Originally Posted by Galant View Post
    Do you mean rational - or perhaps moral?
    Contemplating murder strikes me as irrational, regardless of how logically you approach it - The extremes of rationality and logic are the domain of sociopaths.

    Quote Originally Posted by [GSV]Trig View Post
    Never said I was rational, have you not seen the file on me?

    Look at it this way, someone has your missus and says they're going to rape her unless you shoot Hitler...
    Never say you wouldn't kill someone, everyone has a point where what is morally correct goes out of the window.
    Are you suggesting someone under that kind of duress would be capable of thinking rationally? I doubt I would be.

  3. #19
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    Jul 2003
    Posts
    12,113
    Thanks
    906
    Thanked
    580 times in 405 posts

    Re: Push a Fat Man?

    Possibly, but life isn't fair, people suck, morals are flexible...

    As above though, once you start to discuss things, then you're missing the point of the original question, take it at face value.


    There are always those that say they could never kill someone, I think that's either an out and out lie to make themselves feel good, or they lack imagination, in the same way as those that say "things couldn't get worse" have no imagination.

    Does that make me some sort of psycho, or just a realist open to the fact that I am a flawed human being, and that I would have a limit as to what I would take before acting, the same as I believe everyone else is.

  4. #20
    MCRN Tachi Ttaskmaster's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2013
    Location
    Reading, UK
    Posts
    6,917
    Thanks
    673
    Thanked
    806 times in 668 posts
    • Ttaskmaster's system
      • Motherboard:
      • Aorus Master X670E
      • CPU:
      • Ryzen 7800X3D
      • Memory:
      • 32GB Corsair Dominator DDR5 6000MHz
      • Storage:
      • Samsung Evo 120GB and Seagate Baracuda 2TB
      • Graphics card(s):
      • Aorus Master 4090
      • PSU:
      • EVGA Supernova G2 1000W
      • Case:
      • Lian Li V3000 Plus
      • Operating System:
      • Win11
      • Monitor(s):
      • Gigabyte M32U
      • Internet:
      • 900Mbps Gigaclear WHOOOOOOOOOOOO!!!!!!!!

    Re: Push a Fat Man?

    Quote Originally Posted by Spreadie View Post
    Contemplating murder strikes me as irrational, regardless of how logically you approach it - The extremes of rationality and logic are the domain of sociopaths.
    And about 60% of the population, and most computers... although arguably, those 60% who would murder someone are clearly not thinking rationally or logically, else they'd have figured out the ruse in the tests and seen the illegality in the killing. A rational mind would recognise this and understand that murder is only unlawful killing... before then figuring out how to kill under perfectly legitimate and legal circumstances.

    Quote Originally Posted by Spreadie View Post
    Are you suggesting someone under that kind of duress would be capable of thinking rationally? I doubt I would be.
    The 'Rules Of Engagement' card issued to soldiers gives a very clear, logical procedure by which they can assess the situation and decide whether or not to shoot someone. It takes very rational thinking to go through that little checklist... and you don't get much more duress than when you can see someone is about to shoot you!
    _______________________________________________________________________
    Quote Originally Posted by Mark Tyson
    like a chihuahua urinating on a towering inferno...

  5. #21
    LUSE Galant's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2003
    Location
    Gibraltar
    Posts
    3,252
    Thanks
    502
    Thanked
    555 times in 339 posts

    Re: Push a Fat Man?

    In terms of rational & logical vs. moral it my perspective that rational/logical are calculators. They help you work through ideas and information but they are entirely dependent on the data available and input. They can tell you "if this, then that", or "this and this equals that". What logic and rationality can help with but cannot decide (by themselves) are values such as good/bad, better/worse etc. For that you need to have some values already in place, or else, assumed.

    It can be very rational to consider in what circumstances one might commit murder. It would be irrational to hold that one can both commit murder in certain circumstances and that murder is never justifiable. It can be perfectly logical, just not moral or acceptable or polite or decent or... a number of other things.
    No trees were harmed in the creation of this message. However, many electrons were displaced and terribly inconvenienced.

  6. #22
    Banhammer in peace PeterB kalniel's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2005
    Posts
    31,023
    Thanks
    1,870
    Thanked
    3,381 times in 2,718 posts
    • kalniel's system
      • Motherboard:
      • Gigabyte Z390 Aorus Ultra
      • CPU:
      • Intel i9 9900k
      • Memory:
      • 32GB DDR4 3200 CL16
      • Storage:
      • 1TB Samsung 970Evo+ NVMe
      • Graphics card(s):
      • nVidia GTX 1060 6GB
      • PSU:
      • Seasonic 600W
      • Case:
      • Cooler Master HAF 912
      • Operating System:
      • Win 10 Pro x64
      • Monitor(s):
      • Dell S2721DGF
      • Internet:
      • rubbish

    Re: Push a Fat Man?

    In such a panicked situation I doubt anyone without training would have much time for rational thought, you're more likely to react instinctively in line with your own unconscious bias, which will probably be based on who you feel a more kindred spirit with, the fat man or the people in the path of the tram.

  7. #23
    LUSE Galant's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2003
    Location
    Gibraltar
    Posts
    3,252
    Thanks
    502
    Thanked
    555 times in 339 posts

    Re: Push a Fat Man?

    Quote Originally Posted by kalniel View Post
    In such a panicked situation I doubt anyone without training would have much time for rational thought, you're more likely to react instinctively in line with your own unconscious bias, which will probably be based on who you feel a more kindred spirit with, the fat man or the people in the path of the tram.
    I think it's less about what you would do in a real world situation and more the contrast between two scenarios.

    In both cases the motivation and the results are the same - you want to save five people, you'll need to be willing to sacrifice one person to do so.

    However, most people asked apparently answer that they'd pull the lever but wouldn't topple the big guy. If so, the question becomes why? In both scenarios you're taking deliberate action to save five people at the cost of one other person. Why be comfortable pulling the level but not pushing the human bumper?

    Or for those who would or wouldn't do both, what's the reasoning?
    No trees were harmed in the creation of this message. However, many electrons were displaced and terribly inconvenienced.

  8. #24
    Banhammer in peace PeterB kalniel's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2005
    Posts
    31,023
    Thanks
    1,870
    Thanked
    3,381 times in 2,718 posts
    • kalniel's system
      • Motherboard:
      • Gigabyte Z390 Aorus Ultra
      • CPU:
      • Intel i9 9900k
      • Memory:
      • 32GB DDR4 3200 CL16
      • Storage:
      • 1TB Samsung 970Evo+ NVMe
      • Graphics card(s):
      • nVidia GTX 1060 6GB
      • PSU:
      • Seasonic 600W
      • Case:
      • Cooler Master HAF 912
      • Operating System:
      • Win 10 Pro x64
      • Monitor(s):
      • Dell S2721DGF
      • Internet:
      • rubbish

    Re: Push a Fat Man?

    Quote Originally Posted by Galant View Post
    However, most people asked apparently answer that they'd pull the lever but wouldn't topple the big guy. If so, the question becomes why? In both scenarios you're taking deliberate action to save five people at the cost of one other person. Why be comfortable pulling the level but not pushing the human bumper?
    Probably the same reason they'd eat meat from a supermarket shelf but not want to kill an animal themselves.

  9. Received thanks from:

    [GSV]Trig (21-01-2020),sammyc (21-01-2020)

  10. #25
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    Aug 2008
    Posts
    682
    Thanks
    31
    Thanked
    105 times in 75 posts
    • adidan's system
      • Motherboard:
      • MSI B450M Mortar Max
      • CPU:
      • R5 3600
      • Memory:
      • 32Gb 3200Mhz Crucial Ballistix Sport
      • Storage:
      • Corsair MP510 m.2 480Gb / 2xCrucial M500 1Tb0
      • Graphics card(s):
      • Zotac GTX1080 Mini
      • PSU:
      • 750W EVGA G3
      • Case:
      • CM NR400 Noctua Redux filled
      • Operating System:
      • W10 64 Bit
      • Monitor(s):
      • 27" 1440p Iiyama XUB2792QSU

    Re: Push a Fat Man?

    Quote Originally Posted by [GSV]Trig View Post
    So where do I sit on that then?

    I would have no issues at all murdering someone if the circumstances required it.
    Everybody is capable.

    I don't know how I would live with it but that's not to say I couldn't. I hope I never have to find out whether I could or not.

    But no issues? Yeah, you may not think you'd have issues but even seasoned soldiers have it come back to bite them, no matter how justified the killing.

    But in a civilian environment with a rogue tram? Yeah, nah.
    Grab that. Get that. Check it out. Bring that here. Grab anything useful. Take anything good.

  11. #26
    LUSE Galant's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2003
    Location
    Gibraltar
    Posts
    3,252
    Thanks
    502
    Thanked
    555 times in 339 posts

    Re: Push a Fat Man?

    Quote Originally Posted by kalniel View Post
    Probably the same reason they'd eat meat from a supermarket shelf but not want to kill an animal themselves.
    Except in that area people who eat meat but wouldn't want to do the killing wouldn't say it's wrong to kill animals (just as long as I don't do it). In this scenario you have people thinking that it's actually wrong to push the guy but not wrong to pull the lever.
    No trees were harmed in the creation of this message. However, many electrons were displaced and terribly inconvenienced.

  12. #27
    MCRN Tachi Ttaskmaster's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2013
    Location
    Reading, UK
    Posts
    6,917
    Thanks
    673
    Thanked
    806 times in 668 posts
    • Ttaskmaster's system
      • Motherboard:
      • Aorus Master X670E
      • CPU:
      • Ryzen 7800X3D
      • Memory:
      • 32GB Corsair Dominator DDR5 6000MHz
      • Storage:
      • Samsung Evo 120GB and Seagate Baracuda 2TB
      • Graphics card(s):
      • Aorus Master 4090
      • PSU:
      • EVGA Supernova G2 1000W
      • Case:
      • Lian Li V3000 Plus
      • Operating System:
      • Win11
      • Monitor(s):
      • Gigabyte M32U
      • Internet:
      • 900Mbps Gigaclear WHOOOOOOOOOOOO!!!!!!!!

    Re: Push a Fat Man?

    Quote Originally Posted by kalniel View Post
    In such a panicked situation I doubt anyone without training would have much time for rational thought, you're more likely to react instinctively in line with your own unconscious bias, which will probably be based on who you feel a more kindred spirit with, the fat man or the people in the path of the tram.
    To nick a quote:
    "Rationality implies the conformity of one's beliefs with one's reasons to believe, and of one's actions with one's reasons for action".
    Rationality is also relative.

    Quote Originally Posted by Galant View Post
    However, most people asked apparently answer that they'd pull the lever but wouldn't topple the big guy. If so, the question becomes why?
    Pulling the lever puts the tram on a route with someone who was already there, in a dangerous situation. You didn't choose this, you just chose the lesser of two weevils.

    Pushing the guy takes him from a potentially precarious situation into an almost-guaranteed death situation. This latter scenario involves an active and conscious escalation. It also only seems that the big guy will stop the tram, so the chance exists that you've just intentionally increased the death toll to six instead of five...
    _______________________________________________________________________
    Quote Originally Posted by Mark Tyson
    like a chihuahua urinating on a towering inferno...

  13. #28
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    Jul 2003
    Posts
    12,113
    Thanks
    906
    Thanked
    580 times in 405 posts

    Re: Push a Fat Man?

    I didn't say I wouldn't expect it to come back to haunt me at some point, I suspect it would at some level, but the initial act, that, I would have no issue with.

  14. #29
    Banhammer in peace PeterB kalniel's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2005
    Posts
    31,023
    Thanks
    1,870
    Thanked
    3,381 times in 2,718 posts
    • kalniel's system
      • Motherboard:
      • Gigabyte Z390 Aorus Ultra
      • CPU:
      • Intel i9 9900k
      • Memory:
      • 32GB DDR4 3200 CL16
      • Storage:
      • 1TB Samsung 970Evo+ NVMe
      • Graphics card(s):
      • nVidia GTX 1060 6GB
      • PSU:
      • Seasonic 600W
      • Case:
      • Cooler Master HAF 912
      • Operating System:
      • Win 10 Pro x64
      • Monitor(s):
      • Dell S2721DGF
      • Internet:
      • rubbish

    Re: Push a Fat Man?

    Quote Originally Posted by Galant View Post
    Except in that area people who eat meat but wouldn't want to do the killing wouldn't say it's wrong to kill animals (just as long as I don't do it). In this scenario you have people thinking that it's actually wrong to push the guy but not wrong to pull the lever.
    Wrong, or just they wouldn't do it themselves?

  15. #30
    LUSE Galant's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2003
    Location
    Gibraltar
    Posts
    3,252
    Thanks
    502
    Thanked
    555 times in 339 posts

    Re: Push a Fat Man?

    Quote Originally Posted by kalniel View Post
    Wrong, or just they wouldn't do it themselves?
    I think there are a lot of people who would say it's wrong. They'd see a difference somehow.
    No trees were harmed in the creation of this message. However, many electrons were displaced and terribly inconvenienced.

  16. #31
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    Oct 2012
    Posts
    415
    Thanks
    158
    Thanked
    95 times in 66 posts

    Re: Push a Fat Man?

    1 - Nope, as it's murder if I choose to throw the switch. Even if it's legally 'OK', it's morally wrong. I'd probably shout at them to move their dumb butts out of the track. Surely one of the 5 should notice the sound of the tram, as it's not going to be whisper quiet! Plus the tram driver would notice, and hit the horns or brakes. If they can't hear that, then so be it.

    2 - Same thing, I won't be party to murdering someone in the off chance that it might save someone else.

    What I'd say will make this decision trickier is if one of the of people in this scenario is someone you know. Then is it morally right to save say your friend or loved one, by getting a stranger hurt or killed? That would be a much harder decision IMO.
    Also a variation - what if you are the one put in danger if you pull the lever? Would you give up your life to save strangers?


    Also, this looks like a variation of something I saw on Bright Side youtube channel a while back, items 1 & 2 in this video: 6 Hardest 'Would You Rather' Dilemmas Ever (Btw, I looked up this video after I wrote the above... only saying because my answers sound like some of the things in this video...)
    Last edited by Scryder; 21-01-2020 at 10:17 PM.
    "Arrogance and stupidity all in the same package. How efficient of you!" - Ambassador Londo Mollari
    "Never interrupt your enemy when he is making a mistake." - A General

  17. #32
    root Member DanceswithUnix's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2006
    Location
    In the middle of a core dump
    Posts
    12,978
    Thanks
    778
    Thanked
    1,586 times in 1,341 posts
    • DanceswithUnix's system
      • Motherboard:
      • Asus X470-PRO
      • CPU:
      • 5900X
      • Memory:
      • 32GB 3200MHz ECC
      • Storage:
      • 2TB Linux, 2TB Games (Win 10)
      • Graphics card(s):
      • Asus Strix RX Vega 56
      • PSU:
      • 650W Corsair TX
      • Case:
      • Antec 300
      • Operating System:
      • Fedora 39 + Win 10 Pro 64 (yuk)
      • Monitor(s):
      • Benq XL2730Z 1440p + Iiyama 27" 1440p
      • Internet:
      • Zen 900Mb/900Mb (CityFibre FttP)

    Re: Push a Fat Man?

    "The Good Place" did a decent episode on the trolley problem.

    I'm pretty sure in both cases I wouldn't act. Hopefully that won't ever become case law that through inaction you become guilty of 4 murders.

Page 2 of 2 FirstFirst 12

Thread Information

Users Browsing this Thread

There are currently 1 users browsing this thread. (0 members and 1 guests)

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •