Push a Fat Man?

[Galant]

On LBC radio this morning they were talking about a variation of the 'trolley'/tram moral conundrum from years back. So Hexus - what would you do? And what do we think about how we choose?

1 - You're in a city street and notice a tram coming at speed, it's going to hit a group of five individuals. You happen to be standing next to a lever that can throw the tram over onto a different track, avoiding the five individuals, however, you see that there's a person standing on the other track and moving the tram over will result in that person getting run over. Do you throw the lever?

2 - Second scenario. Same situation, a tram coming in fast towards five individuals but this time you're standing on a bridge above the track and there's no lever. However, there's a very large man on the bridge with you and the tram is small. It seems likely that if you push the big guy onto the track the tram will be stopped or slowed sufficiently to save the five. Do you push him over?

[[GSV]Trig]

Surely in this day and age, the correct answer is, do nothing to help, but get your phone out and record the entire incident?

[Galant]

Surely in this day and age, the correct answer is, do nothing to help, but get your phone out and record the entire incident?

Ouch! Painfully true.

[adidan]

If the guy is large enough to stop a tram there's no way i'd be able to push him off.

[Galant]

If the guy is large enough to stop a tram there's no way i'd be able to push him off.

Let's just say there's no barrier on the bridge and the guy is leaning over very precariously and it would only take a nudge to see him fall into place...

[Ttaskmaster]

A city, you say?

Cities are overcrowded as is. Removing five people from the equation will solve more issues than removing one... and there's a much higher chance that one of them will be from Peckham!

[[GSV]Trig]

If he's leaning over enough that a nudge would send him over, would shouting to those on the tracks not make him jump and send him over anyway, but then, if he's big enough to stop the tram, how many are on the tram, could the tram derail and then cause other additional injuries?

Are there any sexual deviants, racists or Torys (possibly the same as the other 2) in the group on the tracks...

There are too many unanswered questions to be able to give a straight answer here

[Hoonigan]

Would I face a jail sentence for murder if I switch the lever or push the man? If so, I'd leave it all alone. Otherwise, goodbye Mr. Fat Man.

[Galant]

Alright - there are obvious questions we might have about the scenario, and we can imagine alternatives, the point here is a thought exercise based around both scenarios. So answer the question for both scenarios based on the information you have, without wading into real-world questions. Then see if you answer both the same way or not.

Would you pull the level but not push the man? The opposite? Neither? Both?

[Smudger]

What are these people doing hanging around on tram tracks anyway? They know the risk, if they want to choose somewhere like that for a chat, they deserve what's coming. So, let the tram collide with the 5 people, reverse it up, change the points, run over the other one. That'll learn 'em.

[[GSV]Trig]

So, in reality the question is, would you directly, or indirectly kill one person to save 5.

I would neither pull the lever or push the fat man, I would shout, rather loud and see if the 5 would move.
The tram presumably has a driver, he is in control and responsible for it, if he hits the 5, that's his fault as he's driving, they are also partly to blame for standing on the tracks.

Any direct action on my part by using the lever or pushing tubster would make me responsible for someone's death and then open to the criticism and crap that comes along with that.

[adidan]

Answering yes to either means that you accept that you're willing to commit murder.

Prevention of death through murder? Not sure I could live with myself.

In that case i'd quickly grab something heavy and throw myself in front of the tram if it was to save someone I cared about.

Yeah, I do that. But I wouldn't really. I probably wouldn't realise what was going on until I heard screams.

Interesting question that comes up from time to time, this type of scenario is the sort AI will be making judgements on on our behalf in autonomous vehicles in the future.

[[GSV]Trig]

Answering yes to either means that you accept that you're willing to commit murder.

So where do I sit on that then?

I would have no issues at all murdering someone if the circumstances required it.

[Spreadie]

So where do I sit on that then?

I would have no issues at all murdering someone if the circumstances required it.

Looking for ways to justify murder is not the work of a rational mind.

[Galant]

Looking for ways to justify murder is not the work of a rational mind.

Do you mean rational - or perhaps moral?

[[GSV]Trig]

Looking for ways to justify murder is not the work of a rational mind.

Never said I was rational, have you not seen the file on me?

Look at it this way, someone has your missus and says they're going to rape her unless you shoot Hitler...
Never say you wouldn't kill someone, everyone has a point where what is morally correct goes out of the window.