Buyer Beware on Epic Games

[Galant]

Just an FYI, and I should have read the terms more thoroughly, but if you purchase anything on Epic they are shirking any responsibility as regards the functionality of the game. This didn't sting me too badly since I grabbed something cheap, but here's what happened:

My brother has been wanting to try to do some coop gaming for a while and looking for something we can do online.

He found Ashen which was reviewed by many as being great as a coop game. It was cheap since it was on sale, about £8 I think (so much the better!).

We both grabbed it via Epic and installed it and jumped in. They describe the coop as 'passive' coop, whereby if you have it enabled you could encounter anyone else in world in the same region who also has it enabled, and they play the part of your side-kick. They also provide a multiplayer filter whereby if you both enter the same 6 digit code it will filter out others not with that code. Lastly, you have to complete the first small mission before it put you into a place where coop is possible.

So I was in first, we were trying to figure out all of the above and did a good deal of running around in the first area individually getting used to the game and then looking for multiplayer. I had to search for all that information in the end, completed the first mission, set a filter etc. etc. The first night was a bust. We couldn't find one another. So we figured we had done something wrong. I started Googling for info and lots of people had issues and there were various 'how to's' about getting it to work. So we decided to try again the next night.

We tried again, and I'd be finding out that lots of PC users, both in Steam and in Epic hadn't been able to get it to work at all. I tried reaching dev support but their email was bouncing back, and the best I could was reach a volunteer on their Discord server who explained the devs weren't around due to COVID or whatever. He suggested a few things but admitted it was hit and miss.

So we tried going to this region and that, running around, hoping one or the other would appear. We tried opening it up so that we might run into someone, anyone, else, in game but we didn't ever meet anyone.

Anyway, 8 in-game hours later, we decided to give it up as a lost cause. It was clearly bugged in terms of the PC coop feature and there was no guarantee it would be anything other than a single player game, which I wasn't interested it.

So I contacted Epic to see about requesting a refund. It didn't take long to see that they base their refund eligibility on whether or not you've played more than 2 hours of the game. The website will enable a 'Refund Request' button for games you've bought where you've played less than two hours, and there's no option for those beyond that. I did find a way to email support and so I did, explaining the 8 hour game time and my efforts to get the coop to work, and even linked to my discussion on the A44 Discord server, and asked for the refund. After a few emails back and forth confirming identity and purchase info they politely told me,

" My name is ***** and i'm a supervisor here at Epic Games Player Support. Unfortunately, it doesn't look like we'll be able to offer a refund in this case as it appears your playtime is considerably over the two-hour mark, apologies.

Please feel free to let us know if there's anything else we can do to assist, and have a great week!"

So I wrote back and said that I had mentioned that I was aware that I was over the two hour limit and that I spent that time in a good will effort trying to make the coop work without success. The game is advertised as being a multiplayer/coop game, and I bought it for that purpose, but the game on their client doesn't provide that in any guaranteed way. I asked them to reconsider. They replied:

"Hello, I truly understand the frustration you're experiencing with the game but we won't be able to make an exception in this case, apologies. For further assistance with your issue you can try directly reaching out to the developers at their support address here: help@annapurnainteractive.com

Again, i'm very sorry for the issue you're experiencing but we will not be able to offer a refund in this case. Thank you, and have a great week!"

As mentioned, I had tried to reach support but they're not responsive. The lone volunteer on Discord continues to respond and do his best. Sort of surprises me that COVID is an excuse for one dev or other not being able to provide online support, but who knows.

So, following all this, I decided to check the Epic T's & C's. Here's what I found:

"The Services and all information, content, materials, products (including software), and other services included on or otherwise made available to you through the Services are provided by Epic on an “as is” and “as available” basis. Epic makes no representations or warranties of any kind, express or implied, as to the operation of the Services, or the information, content, materials, products (including software), or other services included on or otherwise made available to you through the Services. You expressly agree that your use of the Services is at your sole risk. To the full extent permissible by law, Epic disclaims all warranties, express or implied, including, but not limited to, implied warranties of merchantability and fitness for a particular purpose. Epic does not warrant that the Services, information, content, materials, products (including software) or other services included on or otherwise made available to you through the Services, Epic’s servers, or electronic communications sent from Epic are free of viruses or other harmful components." (Bold highlights added by me).

So basically, if you buy something on the Epic store and it doesn't do everything it says on the tin, that's your problem, not theirs.

I'll not be spending any more money on them. I would have at least appreciated it had they attempted to provide some support or assistance in resolving the issue, but just sending along an email to a developer that's bouncing emails back is hardly diligent.

Caveat emptor.

[Ttaskmaster]

So basically, if you buy something on the Epic store and it doesn't do everything it says on the tin, that's your problem, not theirs.

Is that not the same with any other retail platform, though, excepting those like Origin who actually are also the Devs?
How is it in any way Epic's fault that the devs released a broken game?
Are all the Steam users getting refunds?

[Galant]

Is that not the same with any other retail platform, though, excepting those like Origin who actually are also the Devs?
How is it in any way Epic's fault that the devs released a broken game?
Are all the Steam users getting refunds?

I can't proclaim any great experience with purchasing from various platforms so I don't know how many offer refunds. I've had things refunded from Steam before. But there a few issues here for me. 1. If a game isn't as advertised then I would think it's good practise, and due diligence, to investigate and either pull the game from the lineup or advertise/warn of the issue.

2. There was zero visible effort to help me resolve the issue or find a way to reach a better resolution.

3. A policy to prevent people from playing and then returning is one thing, but where there's a genuine issue, it would be an act of good faith to refund something. Does customer satisfaction not matter any more?

[Jonj1611]

I have to agree with Ttashmaster here, Steam do exactly the same thing, 2 hour limit and good luck getting your money back after that time.

Some games can be completed in 8 hours or less, some in less than 5 for even triple AAA titles. Which I guess they have the 2 hour limit

On the note about they didn't help, hmm difficult one, they didn't make the game so how could they offer technical advice, only the games creators could help with the particular issue you were having i'm afraid.

[Galant]

I have to agree with Ttashmaster here, Steam do exactly the same thing, 2 hour limit and good luck getting your money back after that time.

Some games can be completed in 8 hours or less, some in less than 5 for even triple AAA titles. Which I guess they have the 2 hour limit

On the note about they didn't help, hmm difficult one, they didn't make the game so how could they offer technical advice, only the games creators could help with the particular issue you were having i'm afraid.

I've definitely had support from Steam where I was refunded a game that had gone over the time limit.

But that aside, we're not talking about one person having an issue. We're talking about a known issue affecting many users, removing a significant aspect of the game.

[Jonj1611]

You have had better luck with Steam refunds than I.

[Ttaskmaster]

But that aside, we're not talking about one person having an issue. We're talking about a known issue affecting many users, removing a significant aspect of the game.

How many have complained to the retailer, though?
How many other games have turned out to be worthless, buggy piles of cack?
How many other refunds have happened due to such things?

1. If a game isn't as advertised then I would think it's good practise, and due diligence, to investigate and either pull the game from the lineup or advertise/warn of the issue.

Game will be sold with the dev's own blurb, just as items are sold on Scan and OCUK using the manufacturer's blurb.
Such description is the fault of the Dev or publisher, not the retail platform.

2. There was zero visible effort to help me resolve the issue or find a way to reach a better resolution.

Like what?
There could be any one of a hundred things particular to your particular PCs that only cause these particular difficulties in your particular circumstances. Are platforms to employ a whole army of tech support now, to advise everyone on every issue? Is that not what tech support forums like this are for?

3. A policy to prevent people from playing and then returning is one thing, but where there's a genuine issue, it would be an act of good faith to refund something. Does customer satisfaction not matter any more?

An issue likely beyond their control and so outside of their responsibility.

Besides, you have two hours in which to figure out the issues, by which time most people would have just given up and applied for a refund. You waited four times that.

An occasional outlier might get such a request granted past the deadline, but if, as you say, loads of people are having issues then I doubt a platform would issue that many refunds as it'd be a serious financial loss, and there are already T&Cs in place to guard against it.
There's good faith, and there's going bankrupt over refunding everyone for every little quibble they come up with. A line must be drawn and you were six hours too far on the unfortunate side of it.

[Saracen999]

....

There could be any one of a hundred things particular to your particular
There's good faith, and there's going bankrupt over refunding everyone for every little quibble they come up with. A line must be drawn and you were six hours too far on the unfortunate side of it.

The other of that is that reputation is hard to earn, very easy to lose, and expensive if not near-impossible to regain. If they have a genuine problem, screwing customers over is a bit short-term in viewpoint.

How many here still won't touch OcUK witth a bargepole due to treatment they got 10, 15 or even 20 years ago, due in large part to.the attitude of the owner, who not only is no longe involved with them but, IIRC, died several years ago.

There is certainly a High Street bank that treated me sufficiently badly about 30 years ago that I swore I'd never use them again. And I haven't. And will go to my grave without using them again.

Beware doing customers over, because they to to remember being done over way longer than they remember how they were done over. Do it to too many customers and you risk running out of them.

There's a balance in there.

[Jonj1611]

They hardly "done him over" though, as with Steam a 2 hour limit to test the game and make sure it works, if it doesn't then thats the time to get a refund or figure out whats wrong with the developer. Epic didn't develop the game, what type of help or support could they actually give in this situation?

[Saracen999]

They hardly "done him over" though, as with Steam a 2 hour limit to test the game and make sure it works, if it doesn't then thats the time to get a refund or figure out whats wrong with the developer. Epic didn't develop the game, what type of help or support could they actually give in this situation?

Like beauty, it's in the eye of the beholder.

I take the 2-hr point, but I also note the reason given for taking 8 hours.

I think is his shoes, I'd interpret the 2 hrs as gameplay, and if I spent 8 hours trying to get co-op working, it's kinda 0 hours of useful gameplay.

I can see it from both sides, but .... like with the bank I mentioned, I don't much care how they see it, their actions lost them my custom permanently. Losing me won't bother them, but lose a million customers that way?

[Apex]

The other of that is that reputation is hard to earn, very easy to lose, and expensive if not near-impossible to regain. If they have a genuine problem, screwing customers over is a bit short-term in viewpoint.

How many here still won't touch OcUK witth a bargepole due to treatment they got 10, 15 or even 20 years ago, due in large part to.the attitude of the owner, who not only is no longe involved with them but, IIRC, died several years ago.

There is certainly a High Street bank that treated me sufficiently badly about 30 years ago that I swore I'd never use them again. And I haven't. And will go to my grave without using them again.

Beware doing customers over, because they to to remember being done over way longer than they remember how they were done over. Do it to too many customers and you risk running out of them.

There's a balance in there.

Slight off topic but

OcUK
Aria
Local takeaway
ebuyer
Sainsburys
dominos

are the current ones on my do not use list ( i think i am getting more impatient the older i get) - all it took was one bad transaction with them for them to end up on the "do not use list" - it does not matter to them and some would say petty reasons but for me i just can't accept it and walked away from them.

[Saracen999]

Slight off topic but

OcUK
Aria
Local takeaway
ebuyer
Sainsburys
dominos

are the current ones on my do not use list ( i think i am getting more impatient the older i get) - all it took was one bad transaction with them for them to end up on the "do not use list" - it does not matter to them and some would say petty reasons but for me i just can't accept it and walked away from them.

Agreed, and the bank was just an example. I have a similar list, as I suspect most of us do.

My criteria for adding to it are slightly tougher though.

I'll give anybody a second chance, and anyone can have a bad day/transaction. It's wilfully or deliberately bad customer service that gets them added to my s-list.

It can result in some funny situations, though.

A long time ago, I had an argument with .... let's just say a large bookshop, when I asked for a VAT receipt for a book. They refused, pointing out there's not VAT on books. Which is generally true enough .... except when the book is a computer book, which includes software, on which VAT is indeed chargeable. And as I was paying it, and the bookshop no doubt weren't paying it to HMRC, I decided to get on my high horse about it despite the amount, about £1.20, being trivial.

It was the shop manager's attitude that did it. He was utterly adamant that no VAT was involved, and downright condescending, not to mention patronising, about it. So I told him I'd get a second opinion on it. Speaking to the shop's customer service office similarly got me nowhere. They promised to "look into it" and get back to me next day. A week went past without a word.

So,I tried a different approach, and rang HMRC and asked to speak to someone on the team handling the bookseller. I ended up with someone with a title like "account director" or similar. I explained the situation and asked for his opinion. He confirmed my interpretation. So I wondered, out loud, that if that one shop (and customer services) were wrong, on this one occasion, how many other people were being denied the receipt they were legally entitled to? Systematically. He promised to " look into it". Hmmm.

I did 'accidentally' happen to mention that I was a journalist and by a strange coincidence, was having dinner with his boss next week. I may have stretched the definition of *boss" a little.

He said "The head of HMRC?"

"No,", I said, "the Chancellor of the Exchequer".

There was a moment or two of ' pregnant silence' while, I assumed, that sank in.

So .... about an hour later, I got a very apologetic phone call from a director of the bookshop (which was a very large national outfit) apologising (over ££1.20) and asking if I would like the receipt posted to me, or did I want to collect from the shop?

Bearing in mind the patronising manner of the shop manager, I decided on the latter, as I'd be in that shopping centre a couple of days later anyway. That manager's facial expression when he handed me the receipt was a real picture. It was like a cross between someone that had taken the proverbial bite out of an apple only to find half a work, and someone reluctant to sit down due to a very recent and serious ass-chewing.

Over £1.20.

It wasn't the amount that mattered. It was, in truth, about 10% principle, about 90% irritation at his attitude.

He wound me right up. And customer services had their chance, and blew it.

The funny thing was, I really was having dinner with the Chancellor the next week. To this day I don't know why. Sure, I really was a journalist and yeh, did the occasional political piece. But very rarely. What caught the Chancellor's eye, and triggered the invite, out of the blue, I have no idea. None at all. But I somehow ended up on the No.11, and No.10, press list, for several years. It stopped when the then Conservative gov't lost power. But for the bookseller thing, the timing was serendipitous, to say the least.

Anyway, rambling over.

[Saracen999]

Sorry, Galant. I got a bit side-tracked there. I've slapped myself.

[Jonj1611]

Absolutely agree, if you have a bad experience do not use them again.

Though saying that I have had a couple of bad experiences with Steam and still continued to use them and even though its rare I still use Scan for the occasional thing

[Ttaskmaster]

Losing me won't bother them, but lose a million customers that way?

Why does any of this entitle someone to a refund, when they are clearly outside the set period specified in the well defined T&Cs of the contract?
For fear of reputation loss?
I think not, for that is exactly how Ebay runs business and there are plenty of people here ready to kick off about that!

When a customer wants to throw every legal entitlement at a retailer to demand a refund, they get applause, but when a retailer elects to use its own legal protections to draw a line that is reasonable and legal, they're the bad guys for it?

Moreover, this sort of thing has happened before with heavily bugged games, and generally it's the game company that gets [censored] over it, not the retail platform.

[Jonj1611]

Same thing happened with Batman, bugged to hell, Steam refused refunds, it was Warner Brothers that initialised the refunds through Steam