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Thread: the big R

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    the big R

    Work just announced consultations. Anyone been through this? It's a bit of uncharted waters for me. I can't imagine I'll be alone in the coming months, and hey, I might still make it through, but I'm struggling to know what, if anything, I should be doing in the next few weeks by way of preparation, if indeed any is necessary.

    Any tips/pointers? (I'm not fishing for sympathy - there'll be time enough for that later if the worst happens, it might not. You never know).

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    root Member DanceswithUnix's Avatar
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    Re: the big R

    Sadly it's a part of life in the IT industry if not just modern life, and yes I know others in the same boat right now

    I've been through it twice, and in both cases it was scary but worked out well in the end.

    I would assume you are going, partly as the option of another job probably isn't a bad thing even if you get the option to stay. Polish up your CV and sort out your linked in profile.

    Good luck, hope it goes well!

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    Re: the big R

    While it's obviously not good, right now might be one of the least worst times for it to happen. There are likely to be a slew of Government initiatives to support those out of work, so make sure you research and see what you qualify for or can take advantage of. I have a number of friends who haven't worked since March, and are looking at 5-10 years of unemployment in this industry. Their plans involve retraining for different career paths, so keep an open mind. This is obviously not a good time, but you might be able to turn in into an opportunity. Stay as positive as you can, and remember there are definitely people here who care and may be able to help. I can't help with employment, as it's not my industry, but pm any time if you want to chat.

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    Re: the big R

    thanks both. How essential is linked in? I don't use it and don't really want to tbh, but then it's been a good while since I last wrote a CV and the world has moved on a bit since then.

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    root Member DanceswithUnix's Avatar
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    Re: the big R

    My current job was from word of mouth, but the previous one was directly from Linked In. I think before that was Jobserve.

    It is a good site to have in your mix, a lot of recruiters search for candidates on there.

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    Re: the big R

    I was made redundant after 14 years at the same place, thats err 9 years ago.
    Get in Linkedin, I still get contact through it asking if I am interested in certain jobs.
    Are you interested in retraining? There might be Gov funds available. I looked at retraining to do asbestos surveys and stripping.
    Sort a base CV out an get it looked at, maybe by your current company HR / recruitment team.
    I used targeted CVs and letters, seemed to get me interviews. I did a basic CV, then ones targeted to different fields, engineering, lab, work, etc.
    Don't underestimate importance of hobbies and out of work things on you CV and covering letter. I have interviewed and employed several people because of out of work interests, especially technical stuff like amateur radio and astronomy. I have also been offered a job in R&D engineering based around my hobbies. Everybody else had an hour of maths questions, I just chatted about stuff I like, and got offered the job ahead of people with much higher qualifications.

    Because I worked in the same place for many years I think overall moving on helped. I am now in a better job, gave me some focus. Currently heading towards being a Health Safety and Environmental specialist.

    If your asking questions like this on a forum it could be worth including your general location and field you work in, odd things do happen.

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    Re: the big R

    There's a limit to how much I can add, because though I've "been there, done that" it was a LONG time ago, and things were very different from 'modern-normal', let alone 'modern-Covid'.

    One thing I would say is it's not necessarily a bad thing. In my case, it jolted me out of my cosy inertia and motivated me to take a long hard look at what I wanted from life. I looked back at the previous 15 years, then pictured doing that for the next 30+ and it scared thee proverbial outta me. It made me realise the truth of the old adage about "do something you love and you never work another day in your life".

    Of course, my circumstances were such (not worried about bringing up young kids and having to provide) that I could indulge in 'want to' at the expense of 'need to'. Not everybody has that option, and it depends on personal situation.

    But any prospect of impending big-R ((assuming you don't mean retirement) is certainly motivation to review where you want to be, and what you want to be doing, in two, five or twenty five years. It gave me a swift kick iin the underwear and my life took a totally unexpected swerve .... for which I am now profoundly thankful. Though it sure didn't feel like it at the time. It scared the wotsit out of me.

    So .... take this as a chance for a good think about about the future. Whether that consists of deciding you really want to stay with the current job/company, or move job, or change career direction, or (like me) do a wholesale root and branch rethink, at least it forces a good rethink on you.

    Okay, most people don't welcome what might be heading your way. I get that. But if you decide you want the status quo and your current job, then it's a good kick in the motivation to think about how to make that clear to your current employer. Perhaps that just consists of a chat with your boss, emphasising that you really like it there, really want to stay and see it as more than just a drudge for a monthly paycheck. Most employers, if a downsizing (hate that phrase, BTW) exercise is going on, would rather keep someone that really wants to be there, than those just marking time. Then see if there's any way of affecting your 'points score' I the redundancy calculations.

    But if you decide you don't really want to stay, you're better off doing the thinking, and planning, before the axe falls.

    First question to ask yourself (if you want to move on) is, IMHO, do I want to get out now, before I get no choice, or is any redundancy payout worth holding on for? A friend of mine held a single corporate job for quite a while, then found out thee chop was coming. His payout was enough to start his own business which, while damn hard work and very stressful, for quite a few years, also set him up for early retirement with enough money that, while not stinking rich, meant he never had to worry about money again.

    Whether his route, or minee (self-employment), or a number of other things, what you're facing IS a Good time for a careful rethink. Maybe that just reinforces that you want to stay put. In which case, make the case for that proactively. Or maybe, it provides the impetus to break free of cozy inertia and make the change you otherwise might not.

    Either way, what's coming is coming, so just don't do a 'rabbit in the headlights'. However it goes, see it as a chance to rethink things.

    And good luck.
    A lesson learned from PeterB about dignity in adversity, so Peter, In Memorium, "Onwards and Upwards".

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    Re: the big R

    The COVID has pushed upon us a lot of changes, particularly with regards to employment, but it doesn't need to be scary, it might even turn out great. It could be the push you didn't know that you needed.

    I worked as a technology journalist for the last three and a half years, then the COVID hit and my work dried up very quickly. I threw in the towel and started looking for other opportunities. Right now, as I type this, I'm on a train to Stevenage for a four-week training course to set up as a telecommunications engineer, working for EE, BT and Sky. I've not been as excited about something for a long time and I can't wait to get stuck in. All it took was the COVID giving me a kick up the underpants to push me out to see what's out there.

    As others have mentioned, get on LinkedIn and set up a profile. That's where a lot of professionals find their work these days and even find themselves head-hunted for better jobs.

    Good luck, hope it goes well!

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    Re: the big R

    Another for LinkedIn, I don't do social media but it is the sole exception. Got my last job on it and been offered more since. Treat it as a CV, log in every few months, tidy & update it and add a few useful/senior colleagues, particularly ones about to leave. You never know what their new place might be looking for.

    Make both it and your CV search engine optimised, by which I mean a bullet list of any specialist qualifications or experiences up front, before you get into work history, statements and hobbies.

    Reason for this is obvious for LinkedIn, but the same applies to CVs for recruitment firms. I know someone who works for one and he said that to be considered for the job, heck to even be seen by a recruitment agent nevermind their client, you need to make it past minimum-wage-Mike/Mary. The agent has a job come up, they'll ask Mike/Mary to do a search of CVs. Yours needs to have the keywords that such a person is likely to use somewhere prominent and near the top to have a chance of being passed to the recruiter.

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    Re: the big R

    Thanks. I'm not sure which way it'll go to be honest but yeah, bracing for the worst, then I won't be unpleasantly surprised.

    re CVs well I have a range of hobbies and interests but all firmly amateur, nothing amazing like "I was part of the team who sailed the atlantic to raise funds for dwarf amputee war orphans" I can't see anyone being interested tbh. I fill my time and am content but none of it is "hey look at me". I'm not someone with that kind of personality. I find it quite difficult to speak up and boast about myself - there isn't really anything to boast about. Average at best. I'd rather not be in the limelight and leave that to others. Similarly on the professional side, beyond years of experience and being what I'd consider a reasonably safe pair of hands I've no headlines or special qualifications or anything that would stand out. I'm probably not going to be desirable for that reason. It does sound like my best option might be (as people suggest) to retrain I guess.

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    Re: the big R

    I've always felt the hobbies and interests bit showed you had a personality, but it was not a good idea to, as some people do, put too much in. It can give the impression that you're so busy you won't have time for work .... or any energy left.

    But fancy ambitions aren't great either, unless they are both true, and a major part of your life.

    I remember saying "member of Royal Shakespeare Theatre " on my CV when applying for accountancy training, and one of my uni buddies saw it and copied it. On one interview, the partner I would have been articled to asked if I was an actor. "Oh, no, no," I said, "I meant as a theatre-goer". At which point, he asked what the last play I'd been to was, and what I thought of it. Turned out was also a member, and we spent nearly an hour talking about performances.

    My mate, faced with a similar situation (at a different firm) found out why pretending to be interested wasn't so bright after all.

    I got the offer. He didn't. But the hobbies but gave us a talking point to 'connect', and I'm convinced to this day that having that connection swung the offer. I decided I wanted to be London-based not regional, and a referral letter from the Shakespeare-loving partner to the London opposite number got the offer there, too.
    A lesson learned from PeterB about dignity in adversity, so Peter, In Memorium, "Onwards and Upwards".

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    Re: the big R

    Quote Originally Posted by atemporal View Post
    Similarly on the professional side, beyond years of experience and being what I'd consider a reasonably safe pair of hands I've no headlines or special qualifications or anything that would stand out.
    I think "An experienced, safe pair of hands" is a fine starting point for an overview paragraph at the start of CV. You aren't really looking to impress with hobbies and interests, you are trying to be remembered. If you write "I like to wind down at the end of the day with stamp collecting" then when reviewing applicants someone can say "what about the stamp collector" and everyone knows who they are talking about. But as Saracen says, you might get asked, so no fibs

    Another point with Linked In, it is pretty common to search for applicants on there when reading a CV. Partly as employment agencies have a tendency to butcher your CV so getting to raw data can help an interviewer.

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    Re: the big R

    I'm lucky enough to have never been in that position but I'd also say Linkedin is essential. It seems to be where recruiters go nowadays - Find some good examples on their and copy there style! I'd also agree with the point about hobbies. Its just a one or two liner to make you more than just a list of experiences/qualifications. As someone who's done a little bit of interview work, you want something to chat to the interviewee about. So something as simple as watch F1 or fishing can provide something easy to talk about and if the other person is into the same thing you've immediately got a connection - That is key to an interview with multi candidates. When you have 4+ people who are suitable for a job you need something to stand out for the other options. Heck something as simple as having a well laid out CV and running a Spellchecker can be all the difference when it comes to getting an interview. I've reiterated what others have said but I think its important. It might not be the best time to find work right now but not impossible (My place of work is still recruiting if slower than normal).
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    Re: the big R

    Yes for LinkedIn. But disagree on hobbies and interests. Simply not relevant in the job market. Any volunteering, or community work is.
    I'd also add to reach out directly to agencies that deal with your particular skill set, industry or region.
    (I've been made redundant 3 times over the years)
    Society's to blame,
    Or possibly Atari.

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    Re: the big R

    Quote Originally Posted by Phage View Post
    Yes for LinkedIn. But disagree on hobbies and interests. Simply not relevant in the job market. Any volunteering, or community work is.
    I'd also add to reach out directly to agencies that deal with your particular skill set, industry or region.
    (I've been made redundant 3 times over the years)
    LinkedIn isn't my thing. Never needed or used it, from either end of the process. But I agree, essential, or very close to it, these days. Specialist agencies? Again, agree .... subject to it being far more relevant to some lines of work than others.

    Also, personal networks can be very powerful tools. Sometimes.

    As for hobbies, etc, this is a YMMV thing. Sometimes it's important. Sometimes not. Different people read CVs in different ways.

    My view is provided you don't overdo it, or make daft claims you can back up (if asked) it can't do any harm. It might do a lot of good. It's not a magic bullet. Far from it. At best, it's a potential ice-breaker, and might make you stand out a bit.


    One more thing. There are things you don't ever put on a CV. I'm aware of one numpty who's Hobbies and Interests section focussed on how his current hobby was helping his GF pursue an unfair dismissal claim. Regardless of the rights and wrongs of her case (in no sense relevant to his application, that merely screamed "troublemaker" to the potential employer, who binned the CV about 5 seconds after reading that.

    One important tool in an applicant's arsenal is to try to see things from the potential employer's desk. You have x jobs, and probably somewhere from 10x to 100x CVs to wade through. IMHO, the primary job of a CV is to help get you to the first interview. That might be a hobby/interest that catches an eye, but it is also often, these days, something that helps you not be one of the CVs any agency filters out before the actual employer even sees the shortlist.

    The entire CV needs to be designed with that in mind. Obviously, that means evidencing necessary skills and/or experience but it also means someone, whether agency or direct employer, has a ruddy great stack of CVs from which they want a shortlist of manageable size. The CV needs to be clear, concise, and easy to read.

    Don't send a tome the size of War and Peace, or as arcane as James Joyce. Your geography O-level (or equivalent) might, perhaps, matter if you're 17 and applying for you first job but much after that, and really x O levels, y A levels and a degree (grade) in something relevant is about as much info as you need from about 25 onwards. Two or three lines. That's it. Any more and you bore the person filtering the handful that get interviews from the dozens or hundreds that don't.

    Again .... think about what the employer is looking for, not giving them your life story. If you get the interview, the CV did it's job. If you regularly don't, maybe review the CV. Ideally, one page. At most, two. (*)



    (*) Some more specialised jobs require more specialised qualifications and experience. In those cases, you demonstrate you have that but again, make it as concise as is consistent with achieving that. The interviewer will pursue a bit more detail, if relevant, and only if you can get that far.

    A good CV can be critical, so take care to fine-tune it from the employers point of view.

    With some (probably many, but not all) jobs that may well involve minor customisations to suit that job, especially in what experience you stress, and what you gloss over or don't mention.


    Note - the above is all just personal experience. That's the caveat. I'm not a professional recruitment agent, so this is based on what I've seen. But some members here are professionals in this. I'll leave it to them to self-identify as such if they wish.
    A lesson learned from PeterB about dignity in adversity, so Peter, In Memorium, "Onwards and Upwards".

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    Re: the big R

    thanks. My boss deals with recruitment etc and knows I'm not on Linked in. They'll probably notice if I start setting up a profile and adding people or however it works on there. I don't want to make them think I'm planning on leaving etc. I've really been through every emotion with this. Having found out more about how they're selecting people they (paraphrase) are ranking people how they see fit and so it's not an even playing field. This is to keep more junior levels (presumably because cheaper) even though they're less efficient and need baby sitting - but then when work is down you gotta have something for those middle managers to do right? So I'm not hopeful anymore and really quite pessimistic, but I don't want my actions to seal my own fate anymore than it already is purely by virtue of my age and wage. I've already sat in meetings where actions that should come my way have been listed "TBC at next meeting". I think I can see where this is going.

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