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Thread: Remembering

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    Remembering



    I think it's important to make an effort to always keep these events, good and bad, in memory. I'll be spending some time with my kids this evening watching something like this and talking about it.

    If anyone else has any good resources or videos, please post them.


    All the best to all of you!
    No trees were harmed in the creation of this message. However, many electrons were displaced and terribly inconvenienced.

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    Re: Remembering

    No trees were harmed in the creation of this message. However, many electrons were displaced and terribly inconvenienced.

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    Re: Remembering

    As the grandson of a survivor - whose entire family was killed in Auschwitz - I'm afraid it's worth very little to me just to remember if we don't take action when fascism is a very real and present danger on our planet today and a bunch of people just want to be civil and talk politely and think that will combat it. We are witnessing the paradox of intolerance play out on a global scale, and false equivalencies and cultural relativism by centrists are enabling racism and homophobia and anti-semitism, and the lack of vocal, legal and political challenges by people in a position, combined with the jingoism of the right, are actively contributing to this political clusterf*** that means that 'never again' are just empty words, as far as I'm concerned.

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    Re: Remembering

    Quote Originally Posted by wazzickle View Post
    As the grandson of a survivor - whose entire family was killed in Auschwitz - I'm afraid it's worth very little to me just to remember if we don't take action when fascism is a very real and present danger on our planet today and a bunch of people just want to be civil and talk politely and think that will combat it. We are witnessing the paradox of intolerance play out on a global scale, and false equivalencies and cultural relativism by centrists are enabling racism and homophobia and anti-semitism, and the lack of vocal, legal and political challenges by people in a position, combined with the jingoism of the right, are actively contributing to this political clusterf*** that means that 'never again' are just empty words, as far as I'm concerned.
    You do know it was the far left that suffered the disapprobation in the UK regarding anti-Semitism?

    Notwithstanding, I've heard similar arguments for nearly 4 decades at one time or another, relating to this or that supposed or apparent threat, so I do believe your view has a certain ennui that diminishes it. I like Kierkegaard's idea that once something has happened, it can't really happen again, by definition. Call it wishful-thinking if you so choose.

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    Re: Remembering

    Quote Originally Posted by james_ View Post
    You do know it was the far left that suffered the disapprobation in the UK regarding anti-Semitism?

    Notwithstanding, I've heard similar arguments for nearly 4 decades at one time or another, relating to this or that supposed or apparent threat, so I do believe your view has a certain ennui that diminishes it. I like Kierkegaard's idea that once something has happened, it can't really happen again, by definition. Call it wishful-thinking if you so choose.
    I haven't yet read Kierkegaard. But the idea that history doesn't repeat itself... I don't know...

    Ennui? Boredom? I'm sorry that I'm boring you. No, wait, that's sarcasm.

    No, despite living in the UK and being politically active, I had NO IDEA WHATSOEVER that the left - really, the far left - had any problems with antisemitism. Please, tell me all about them.

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    Re: Remembering

    he presumably means Corbyn, and his momentum backed cronies et al and their widely reported failure to crack down on/tolerance of anti-semitism, as concluded IIRC in Labour's own internal investigation last year.

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    Re: Remembering

    OK, we'll stop on the UK politics right now please ! You know what happens if we carry on like that, please keep to the OP point.
    Cheers, David



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    Re: Remembering

    Quote Originally Posted by g8ina View Post
    OK, we'll stop on the UK politics right now please ! You know what happens if we carry on like that, please keep to the OP point.
    Sir, anti-semitism within labour is very much within the scope of the OPs point, even if not mentioned directly, and even if it weren't covered, it's very much relevant and of interest to me. Should I start a new thread to discuss that? I don't want to do that, and this thread is not exactly poppin fresh right now.

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    Re: Remembering

    Quote Originally Posted by wazzickle View Post
    As the grandson of a survivor - whose entire family was killed in Auschwitz - I'm afraid it's worth very little to me just to remember if we don't take action when fascism is a very real and present danger on our planet today and a bunch of people just want to be civil and talk politely and think that will combat it. We are witnessing the paradox of intolerance play out on a global scale, and false equivalencies and cultural relativism by centrists are enabling racism and homophobia and anti-semitism, and the lack of vocal, legal and political challenges by people in a position, combined with the jingoism of the right, are actively contributing to this political clusterf*** that means that 'never again' are just empty words, as far as I'm concerned.
    My own post has the same relation to the OP as does the point about anti-semitism within labour.

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    Re: Remembering

    Considering what I've seen of the OP's previous posts in the past, they don't seem to be a Labour supporter (not a personal attack, just hints I got from previous posts!)... which is why I was hesitant to comment on this thread when I saw it, as I've seen threads like these go one way... I was going to say don't fall for the trap, but it's too late!

    And I think OP's point was about remembering the past, not current politics... oh well.
    "Arrogance and stupidity all in the same package. How efficient of you!" - Ambassador Londo Mollari
    "Never interrupt your enemy when he is making a mistake." - A General

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    Re: Remembering



    The Empire Windrush arrived in Britain 70 years ago, carrying passengers from the Caribbean and from Poland.
    They were invited by Britain to assist with post-war reconstruction.
    Three people tell their stories.
    Last edited by CAT-THE-FIFTH; 13-02-2021 at 01:36 PM.

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    Re: Remembering



    Filmed in1978 by Thames Televisions 'Our people' programme -
    This extract looks at the struggles the local East End Asian community faces against the rise of racist attacks and the growth of the National Front.
    First shown in Thames Television in 1979
    Last edited by CAT-THE-FIFTH; 13-02-2021 at 01:36 PM.

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    Re: Remembering



    A British Falklands veteran embarks on an extraordinary journey to meet the Argentine pilot he thought he'd killed in the 1982 conflict.
    Last edited by CAT-THE-FIFTH; 13-02-2021 at 01:35 PM.

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    Re: Remembering

    Quote Originally Posted by wazzickle View Post
    centrists are enabling racism and homophobia and anti-semitism
    No its actually culture wars started by extremists which are to blame.

    In the 1920s and 1930s,the world was split between the right and left moving further and further apart in the face of the economic destruction caused by the Great Depression and WW1,which is why you had Nazi Germany and Soviet Russia. In both cases the less extreme(lets call them the centrists),who attempted to push towards the centre were the ones who were attacked by both sides,and the first to die. They were the enemies of both sides. Both sides were anti-semitic to various degrees.

    In the end both tended towards the same end goal,which lead to the death of tens of milions.

    If there is no true centre,it means the narrative is only made by the most extreme. If you don't believe me - just look at religion. It also means the more extreme the fringes are allow to go,even the centre shifts. The issue isn't the centre,its the boundaries of what the edges are.

    The issue is relativism - if one side is considered "not as bad" as the other side,they get more of a pass. This is the big issue we have in reporting here in the UK,WRT to foreign conlficts. The media at times can make certain sides look positively angelic when they are not.
    Last edited by CAT-THE-FIFTH; 13-02-2021 at 02:07 PM.

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    Re: Remembering

    Quote Originally Posted by CAT-THE-FIFTH View Post
    No its actually culture wars started by extremists which are to blame.

    In the 1920s and 1930s,the world was split between the right and left moving further and further apart in the face of the economic destruction caused by the Great Depression and WW1,which is why you had Nazi Germany and Soviet Russia. In both cases the less extreme(lets call them the centrists),who attempted to push towards the centre were the ones who were attacked by both sides,and the first to die. They were the enemies of both sides. Both were anti-semitic to various degrees.

    In the end both tended towards the same end goal,which lead to the death of tens of milions.

    If there is no true centre,it means the narrative is only made by the most extreme. If you don't believe me - just look at religion. It also means the more extreme the fringes are allow to go,even the centre shifts. The issue isn't the centre,its the boundaries of what the edges are.

    The issue is relativism - if one side is considered "not as bad" as the other side,they get more of a pass. Instead it should be a more absolutist way of looking at things. Its Ok to criticise both ends of the spectrum.
    Please don't 'No it's' me. That's a pretty arrogant and transparent way of placing yourself and your opinions above me and mine, without justification. What I said can be true while what you said can also be true, largely because they are descriptions of the world in different times, and neither are absolute.

    You could make an argument that Chamberlain knowingly placated Hitler with his white piece of paper, aware that Britain needed more time to ramp up its war preparations, but I don't believe that's borne out by history. What's a more reasonable interpretation was that Chamberlain helped to enable fascism with his spinelessness.

    Also please don't make false equivalencies or engage in whatabouttery. Invoking crimes and mass-murder by communist regimes in a thread about the actual Holocaust is actually where I personally would say is going outside the remit of this thread and only serves to say 'well both sides'. Yes, of course both sides. Your comment that 'they get more of a pass' is only true for those who view history without nuance, with an agenda. In no reasonable world is a crime by one party justifiable on the basis of the crime by another unrelated party.

    The issue is indeed relativism, but that doesn't mean engaging in absolutism. Obviously criticize both ends of the spectrum. If you don't, you're if not an extremist, enabling extremism. But that doesn't mean you look at both sides and say 'ok I'll plonk myself nice and averagely in the middle because I'm incapable of working out which side is right, thus I'll assume they're both equally wrong'.

    'You can't do that now'. Yes, you can. Of course you can. Why couldn't you? Your whole dialogue smells of placing some of the blame on those getting angry, i.e. people like me. The reality is that when you offer an olive branch to extremism - particularly fascism, far moreso than communism - they bite your damned hand off. The answer is not to turn the other cheek, it's not to treat the other side with respect, it's not to justify or lessen their crimes in the light of the crimes of others, it's to fight it.

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    Re: Remembering

    and thats why I said what I did. Threads like this are highly emotive and almost always lead to one member slagging off another. Please keep it civil.
    Cheers, David



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