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Thread: Win 11 VBS - clobbers gaming performance by up to 28% (*).

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    Win 11 VBS - clobbers gaming performance by up to 28% (*).

    First, let me define "up to 28%", then I'll outline what this is about.

    From some benchmarks, the extent of gaming performance lost to VBS varies a LOT, depending on which game. The worst I've seen mentioned is 28%.

    What am I on about?

    The latest (Oct 1st) WAN Show starts with Linus and Luke talking about Win11 "VBS", that is, "virtualisation-based security" partially bricking (Linus' phrase, not mine) gaming performance, and which, it seems might not be optional on pre-built PCs. It appears to not apply to DIY installs, or custom-built machines. Yet. It's a bit unclear where the line is but it appears to be related to "Tier 1" like Dell, HP, etc rather than smaller-scale system integrators doing a more on-demand build but, as with the TPM thing, it's currently unclear.

    Essentially, from what I can make out, VBS is a very good thing for security as it sandboxes most ways in which malicious software can "infect" machines but, as GPU virtualisation is far less advanced than CPU virtualisation, testing seems to show you can lose up to (so far) 28% of the raw performance of those supremely expensive rocking horse piles known as 3080, 3090, etc.

    So before you buy a pre-built PC, for gaming, you might want to check out exactly what-the-bleeeeeep is going on with this.

    As Linus/Luke point out, in many ways, VBS is a Very Good Thing. If you aren't a gamer, it appears to go quite a long way towards making your system more Covi... sorry, wrong virus .... malware resistant. And who could object to that.

    Other than gamers, of course. Which might end up as another strong motivation for the gaming industry to look more and more to Linux for gaming.

    What worries me a bit is an issue like this cropping up so damn close to Win11 launch day. Why is this only coming out now? And why is there so little info and so many "maybe's" and "might's" involved?

    Personally, I don't much care as, for other reasons (already stated, in another thread) I'm not much interested (if at all) in Win11 so I don't have a dog in this fight, but after all the uncertainty of what systems are supported, what the TPM requirements are, and so on, this is apparently yet another example of Win11 looking .... rushed. And truly dire PR.

    Anyway, this stuff came from The WAN Show for anyone interested.
    A lesson learned from PeterB about dignity in adversity, so Peter, In Memorium, "Onwards and Upwards".

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    Re: Win 11 VBS - clobbers gaming performance by up to 28% (*).

    Here are some of the numbers:
    https://www.pcgamer.com/windows-11-p...g-performance/









    It will be interesting to see if this is a bug,and can be fixed. Windows Update?? AMD/Intel/Nvidia driver updates??

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    Re: Win 11 VBS - clobbers gaming performance by up to 28% (*).

    So where some of the people on here said they would wait till the problems are sorted. This is exactly why I agree with them. I might wait till Win 10 is no longer supported. I did not waste my money on a new CPU and card for it to be restricted.
    JABULANI NONKE

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    Re: Win 11 VBS - clobbers gaming performance by up to 28% (*).

    Quote Originally Posted by Kovoet View Post
    So where some of the people on here said they would wait till the problems are sorted. This is exactly why I agree with them. I might wait till Win 10 is no longer supported. I did not waste my money on a new CPU and card for it to be restricted.
    I certainly said something similar, though it was more "wait until final details become clear" before deciding if IK wanted/needed to upgrade. I decided about a week ago that there was nothing involvedthat I needed, little I particularly liked and good enough reason to not upgrade. I'm happy to use Win10 until support ends too, but at that point, can probably extend my Win10 usage by some years by just disconnecting the then-unsupported W10 systems from the 'net, air-gapping them and using Linux or an Android tablet for things needing a browser. It'll do me.
    A lesson learned from PeterB about dignity in adversity, so Peter, In Memorium, "Onwards and Upwards".

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    Re: Win 11 VBS - clobbers gaming performance by up to 28% (*).

    Quote Originally Posted by CAT-THE-FIFTH View Post
    It will be interesting to see if this is a bug,and can be fixed. Windows Update?? AMD/Intel/Nvidia driver updates??
    Haven't looked into this, but speculating from Sarracen999's post, if this is virtualization then it might just be that unlike general purpose CPUs context switching for GPUs is very expensive. Which would mean it might not be fixable. Unsure how many registers GPUs have, but if they have many very wide ones, duplicating them for context switching could use up a lot of transistors which GPUs vendors haven't had to do.

    Originally x86's lack of registers probably helps with context switching back when saving them went to the stack, but these days the x86 CPU internally duplicates them anyhow.

    I guess someone who has actually GPU virtualization with hypervisors might be able to chime in.

    A bit strange that after restricting GPU virtualization to Pro cards for ages, it looks like Nvidia allowed it for consumer cards this year:
    For certain GPU models, Nvidia and AMD video card drivers attempt to detect the GPU is being accessed by a virtual machine and disable some or all GPU features.[33] NVIDIA has recently changed virtualization rules for consumer GPUs by disabling the check in GeForce Game Ready driver 465.xx and later.[34]
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/GPU_vi...ation#QEMU/KVM

    With Win11 coming, that surely is no coincidence?

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    Re: Win 11 VBS - clobbers gaming performance by up to 28% (*).

    Quote Originally Posted by kompukare View Post
    Haven't looked into this, but speculating from Sarracen999's post, if this is virtualization then it might just be that unlike general purpose CPUs context switching for GPUs is very expensive. Which would mean it might not be fixable. Unsure how many registers GPUs have, but if they have many very wide ones, duplicating them for context switching could use up a lot of transistors which GPUs vendors haven't had to do.

    Originally x86's lack of registers probably helps with context switching back when saving them went to the stack, but these days the x86 CPU internally duplicates them anyhow.

    I guess someone who has actually GPU virtualization with hypervisors might be able to chime in.

    A bit strange that after restricting GPU virtualization to Pro cards for ages, it looks like Nvidia allowed it for consumer cards this year:

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/GPU_vi...ation#QEMU/KVM

    With Win11 coming, that surely is no coincidence?
    So PC is even less efficient when compared to consoles??

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    Re: Win 11 VBS - clobbers gaming performance by up to 28% (*).

    I'll wait a while before upgrading to Win11!

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    Re: Win 11 VBS - clobbers gaming performance by up to 28% (*).

    Quote Originally Posted by CAT-THE-FIFTH View Post
    So PC is even less efficient when compared to consoles??
    Yep, and don't get me started on the 10GB is enough for 3080 threads: apparently playing modded games is not important because [Nvida like to skimp on VRAM and plan some obsolescence] HOWEVER in the next breath console players are peasants as they cannot get the full PC gaming experience including mods [because a £400 console cannot match the performance of a 24GB 3090 gamers PC @ £2500+].

    All very strange!

    As for virtualising GPUs, not sure anyone aside from corporate PCs actually needs this new security feature, anyhow. However, if it is something like being slow at context switching, I'm sure next gen or the one after will fix that.

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    Re: Win 11 VBS - clobbers gaming performance by up to 28% (*).

    Quote Originally Posted by kompukare View Post
    Yep, and don't get me started on the 10GB is enough for 3080 threads: apparently playing modded games is not important because [Nvida like to skimp on VRAM and plan some obsolescence] HOWEVER in the next breath console players are peasants as they cannot get the full PC gaming experience including mods [because a £400 console cannot match the performance of a 24GB 3090 gamers PC @ £2500+].

    All very strange!

    As for virtualising GPUs, not sure anyone aside from corporate PCs actually needs this new security feature, anyhow. However, if it is something like being slow at context switching, I'm sure next gen or the one after will fix that.
    I am still a bit iffy about the 8GB on my RTX3060TI!!

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    Re: Win 11 VBS - clobbers gaming performance by up to 28% (*).

    Quote Originally Posted by CAT-THE-FIFTH View Post
    I am still a bit iffy about the 8GB on my RTX3060TI!!
    That's one of my concerns in my current vacillating between PC and gaming laptop .... not that gaming is my prime purpose but if I'm buying a fairly high end spec is graphics acceleration, I want to be able to play games too.

    I watched a video recently, which I think was Jayztwocents, showing memory utilisation of some current games that already come very close two using 8GB. If I'm buying either a PC or laptop, I want to try to build in at least some future-proofing, not to just about meet current needs, and given the current pricing levels, that's extra important. And not easy to do. The sheep processing of high end cards is not my main concern, but the level of memory sure is.
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    Re: Win 11 VBS - clobbers gaming performance by up to 28% (*).

    Quote Originally Posted by CAT-THE-FIFTH View Post
    I am still a bit iffy about the 8GB on my RTX3060TI!!
    The 30 series has definitely been baffling in places

    Quote Originally Posted by Kovoet View Post
    So where some of the people on here said they would wait till the problems are sorted. This is exactly why I agree with them. I might wait till Win 10 is no longer supported. I did not waste my money on a new CPU and card for it to be restricted.
    I like to wait for maturity, I'm still getting used to 10 as they keep moving things around with every update or silently remove features altogether. I really hope they can keep settings in one place in 11 but I fear it will be even worse.
    I've found it easier to just stay on 1909 and not worry about features I really couldn't care about.

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    Re: Win 11 VBS - clobbers gaming performance by up to 28% (*).

    Quote Originally Posted by Saracen999 View Post
    As Linus/Luke point out, in many ways, VBS is a Very Good Thing. If you aren't a gamer, it appears to go quite a long way towards making your system more Covi... sorry, wrong virus .... malware resistant. And who could object to that.
    Completely ignoring the sizable performance impact currently, I agree that VBS is a very good thing. Unfortunately when it comes to improving security, often that comes at a cost of performance. It also often gets in the way of allowing people to get their work done in a way that they are used to and meets resistance.
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    Re: Win 11 VBS - clobbers gaming performance by up to 28% (*).

    Quote Originally Posted by Saracen999 View Post
    That's one of my concerns in my current vacillating between PC and gaming laptop .... not that gaming is my prime purpose but if I'm buying a fairly high end spec is graphics acceleration, I want to be able to play games too.

    I watched a video recently, which I think was Jayztwocents, showing memory utilisation of some current games that already come very close two using 8GB. If I'm buying either a PC or laptop, I want to try to build in at least some future-proofing, not to just about meet current needs, and given the current pricing levels, that's extra important. And not easy to do. The sheep processing of high end cards is not my main concern, but the level of memory sure is.
    Laptops can get what I consider the best GPU out at the moment - the mobile 3080 (which is like an unlocked desktop 3070?) with 16GB VRAM. Given the market prices of discreet GPUs, you're kind of getting a free high spec rest of laptop thrown in

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    Re: Win 11 VBS - clobbers gaming performance by up to 28% (*).

    Quote Originally Posted by kalniel View Post
    Laptops can get what I consider the best GPU out at the moment - the mobile 3080 (which is like an unlocked desktop 3070?) with 16GB VRAM. Given the market prices of discreet GPUs, you're kind of getting a free high spec rest of laptop thrown in
    Even there, it's a minefield. Mobile graphics cards can be, and often are, markedly different from the desktop variants whose names they share, and vary not only from those desktop cards but from each other. Erm, thinking about it, based on machines I've looked at, scratch "often are" and substitute "always are".

    From what i can make out, it largely comes down to laptop profile (the thinner and lighter, the more constrained a mobile 3080 is likely to be), and that in large part depends on the target characterics for both noise and temperature so cooling system is critical. Also, battery life.

    All the 3080-based laptops I've looked at have power bricks that draw less power for the whole laptop, including the mobile 3080, than the desktop 3080 can all on it's own. Typically, it's somewhere around 100-130w for the mobile 3080. That gives a perfrmance hard limit.

    On the one hand, fair enough, given the very different engineering challenges in cooling a thin laptop, and graphics performance in mobile '3080' can still be very impressive and good enough for very impressive frame rates especially on either built-in screens or sub-4k external screens. Personally, I'm not convinced that 4k (or higher) adds much even at 17" on built-in screens. let alone smaller. LTT did a recent review of a laptop driving three 4k external panels, simultanously, surprisingly well in a variety of games but that was something of an outlier and, IIRC, a preview model not a retail unit (check that, though).

    Overall, yeah, graphics performance on such laptops (at a price) are impressive but I'm not convinced about the "free rest of laptop" bit, mainly because you don't get desktop 3080 grunt from mobile 3080's.

    Mainly, BTW. I'm looking at Asus Zephyrus G15 (the white, 32GB one), Dell Alienware X17, Razer (forget the model number, but Dell equivalent). Prices are about £2.5k for the Asus 15" and £3k+ for the Dell. That Corsair model? I didn't notice the price, if it's known yet. Desktop 3080s ain't cheap, but they aren't that expensive even ignoring the performance disparity. And yeah, there are some cheaper "mobile 3080" but bear in mind the often-restricted upgradeability of RAM, storage, etc before committing to the initial spec.

    Like I said, minefield .... for the unwary.


    EDIT - My current quandary, though, is a bit different. I don't really need a laptop. It's not going out and about much. It would be nice to be able to use it sitting perched on my lap, or even sitting in bed, but not utterly essential and rarely (if ever) will it be out of the house, on planes/trains, etc, and even before I retired, I worked from home and the bed-to-office commute consisted of down the stair, right turn, along corridor and into office. Elapsed 'commute' time? About a minute,

    Also, whether desktop or laptop, gaming is not my primary concern. It's a general purpose, photo-editing, video creating/editing, do-it-all and, oh yeah, gaming-capable jack of all trades.
    Last edited by Saracen999; 04-10-2021 at 11:42 AM.
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