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About LinkBacksBBC story Despite obviously quoting someone during a serious discussion all the Muslim organisations are up in arms. They really don't do themselves any favours at all.
BBC story Despite obviously quoting someone during a serious discussion all the Muslim organisations are up in arms. They really don't do themselves any favours at all.
An Atlantean Triumvirate, Ghosts of the Past, The Centre Cannot Hold
The Pillars of Britain, Foundations of the Reich, Cracks in the Pillars.
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Alternatively, if I were Der Panzerkardinal, I might not be quoting such inflammatory comments at all; especially in the context not of a discussion but a speech. Further, I'd note that shortly after becoming Pope, Benedict XVI actually demoted and banished the Vatican's foremost expert on interfaith relations, Archbishop Michael Fitzgerald, a man who is an expert on Islam. He was kicked out of his job as head of the department that promotes dialogue with other faiths and sent to be the Papal Nuncio in Egypt, a significant demotion. As Fr Thomas Reese, Jesuit and Vatican watcher said:
And hey...the Vatican's said something dumb about Muslims...there's a shock."The Pope's worst decision so far has been the exiling of Archbishop Fitzgerald," he says.
"He was the smartest guy in the Vatican on relations with Muslims. You don't exile someone like that, you listen to them.
"If the Vatican says something dumb about Muslims, people will die in parts of Africa and churches will be burned in Indonesia, let alone what happens in the Middle East.
"It would be better for Pope Benedict to have Fitzgerald close to him."
Did he say something dumb, though?Originally Posted by nichomach
He quoted something said more than 600 years ago, to provide a starting point for a very dry and highly specialised academic argument about faith and rational thought, presented to a body of scientific types, in a university lecture. He did not, in my view, say anything negative at all about Islam, but merely quoted someone else who did, to provide a starting point for an argument that, to me, seems to disagree with that premise anyway.
But a number of Muslims (though not by any stretch of the imagination all Muslims) have, it seems, taken it totally out of context and, as per usual, gone off on a rant complete with burning of effigies, screaming, chanting, about how someone is insulting them and their precious prophet ....oh, and the lobbing of the odd hand grenade. About the only thing they haven't done, so far as I know, is declare a fatwa and call for the Pope's murder. Get a grip, people.
It is NOT incumbent on anyone, including the Pope, to consider how every word he says may possibly be taken out of context or might possibly offend someone that doesn't have the nous to read what he actually said, in it's entirety and in context, before deciding they've been insulted. Instead, it seems to me that this group of Muslims are determined to interpret everything they possibly can as an insult or an attack on their prophet. It smacks of a mass case of paranoia and insecurity. It also has all the signs of a classic case of manipulation of the masses, perhaps by a small number of people with a agenda. Who chooses to fire up the Muslim world by reporting inflammatory remarks without providing the context?
I'm not a Catholic and I don't like the Catholic church's stance on a number of issues. I regard a lot of what they say and stand for as not only out of date and pig-headed, but ignorant and downright lethal. I have, in fact, little but contempt for the whole hierarchy, from child-abusing priests upwards. However, I've read this speech the Pope made several times, and not only does it seem eminently logical (and boring as hell) but I can't make out how ANYTHING he said actually insults Muslims, or can reasonably be interpreted to do so, providing his remarks are taken in context, and not grossly misrepresented for the purposes of stirring up trouble.
I don't think he said anything dumb (on this occasion), and I don't see why he (or anybody else) should guard every word in case it's mis-represented and contorted so as to inflame those Muslims with overly-tender sensitivities. He has nothing to apologise for, and should point-blank refuse to do so, as it just panders to this type of thing. It's about time a stand was taken. Muslims may have had a point over those cartoons, despite the fact that freedom of speech provides a counter argument, but their over-reaction was farcical. This fiasco is just a rant to far.
Agreed.
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Once again the Muslim world proves what a bunch of fanatics, hot heads and general idiots they are, especially in Pakistan - a country that has nuclear weapons. They can't take any form of criticism yet want to criticise and influence the west as much as they like.
Typical of them to be over sensitive and for their governments to try to make political capital out of it.
These people only see and hear what they want to and have no intention of looking at that particular paragraph within the context of the speech.
I'm not in the least bit religious and I certainly don't have any love for the Catholic church but on this one I will defend them. Atleast the Catholic church does not go around supporting people who want to kill as many non-believers as possible.
The world needs to get a grip with radical muslims and their fundamentalism.
"Reality is what it is, not what you want it to be." Frank Zappa. ----------- "The invisible and the non-existent look very much alike." Huang Po.----------- "A drowsy line of wasted time bathes my open mind", - Ride.
Neither, however, do most Muslims. Extremism in virtually any form is dangerous, as is a lack of tolerance of the notion that others may think and feel differently from the way we do ..... and religious extremism is perhaps one of the worst forms.
But .... Christianity and Catholicism can hardly stand on their high horse about violent extremism. Remember the Crusades. Not exactly our (the West's) most shining moment. And again, it was religious extremists behind it, but Christian ones that time.
God preserve us from people who feel they have a right to spread His word at gunpoint .... or swordpoint. (irony intended).
The way I always see it is that your average normal man in the street (you, me, Muslim, Christian, Jew, whatever you fancy) is generally a good bloke. Enjoys life, has a laugh, believes what he wants but doesn't force it on anyone else. It's the people that supposedly represent us that cause all the problems, taking pot shots for political reasons so they can up their own paypackets.
An Atlantean Triumvirate, Ghosts of the Past, The Centre Cannot Hold
The Pillars of Britain, Foundations of the Reich, Cracks in the Pillars.
My books are available here for Amazon Kindle. Feedback always welcome!
A sweeping statement? From iranu? No, it can't be! Whatever next?
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a long an irrelevant comparison to something completely different
Ah, the comfort of familiar things....
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Because christians would never preach hatred...
http://www.apple.com/trailers/magnol...scamp/trailer/
Why is Saddam Hussain standing trial for genoside but Bush/Blair aren't? Why are there Tens of billions of dollars of hi tech military personnel but cant find Osama Bin Laden. Yet He is still on survaillence cameras? Its all aload of Bollocks!!
Ohhhh perlease.... how often have you seen westerners, Christian, Jewish, Athiest or otherwise stand up, march and burn effigies and spout the hatred towards Muslims after say the publication of racist literature that can be found in the London street or the bombings in Madrid and London or for that matter New York? How many people here would get on their high horses and demand action against say a cartoonist who satirised the British way of life or the Queen?
How many times do you see the Archbishop of Canterbury giving it large through a microphone on the street and whipping up the crowd and encouraging the extremist? Or maybe your local vicar wants to create a modern day crusade to smite those in the holy land. Yet we have "tolerated" exactly that from extremists in this country.
Go to Iran - stand up with a microphone in front of what little support you have and pledge that you will fight until the banner of Christendom flys above Tehran and see what happens. (And yes I have seen the footage of exactly the opposite in this country form Omah Bakri)
Just look at all the various quotes from all of these so called Muslim scholars, clerics, leaders etc. Not one of them says, "so what, just ignore him", or "read the whole speech and make up your own mind".
By CHOOSING to play the victim, by encouraging a false notion, these so called responsible, learned people, people who have genuine influence, have shown once again that they are not able to think rationally or have any idea that whipping up the crowd causes as much resentment of Muslims in the west as it does resentment of Westerners in Pakistan (and other places).
Now lets address Saracen's post critising mine: Nowhere in it did I say that ALL muslims are out to kill non believers, however, there are plenty of organisations (the same way that the Catholic Church is an organisation) that have that one and only aim. When I say the "Muslim world" I do not mean the bloke in your street who goes to the local mosque I mean the Muslim World; countries that have a majority Muslim population who have no democracy who are ruled by authoritarians and dicatators, clerics and leaders of Muslim groups, tribal chiefs and sharia law. A world where ordinary people have little say.
The average man in the street in ALOT of these places (not all but alot) does not know any better. They are not literate. They are not schooled. They do not learn how to think, only how to be led. They have no information or the means to analyse it. They are sheep and sheep have to be led. So who does the leading? Well it's the people that have always had the power and those people have not changed in 1000 years. They are still the same. There has been very little reform in the Muslim world toward modern statehood and representation. (This is why the majority of "average British Muslims" couldn't give a monkeys. They are more likely to ignore it and get on with things even if they disagree with the British government policy or the Pope.)
Much better to whip up local feelings against a percieved foreign enemy, especially if they are a non-believer, than have that UNDERLYING anger directed at the government or the clerics or authorities. The underlying anger is caused by poverty and lack of opportunity, lack of freedom and all the crap that goes with it. That is what is happening.
I read your post and agree with it and after reading this it would be very difficult for you not to agree with me with regards to perceivced slights that these people project.
I only hoped that readers would read the lines
"Typical of them to be over sensitive and for their governments to try to make political capital out of it.
These people only see and hear what they want to and have no intention of looking at that particular paragraph within the context of the speech."
in my original post. perhaps "these people" was misunderstood as the general Muslim and not their leaders. I don't know.
Unfortuantely they chose to get bogged down with a remark about the Catholic church which is true. Sigh. so I'll digress to show that part of your thinking is wooly.
So lets look at the "Crusades"
Well the first crusade took place at roughly the end of the 11th Century - thats 1000 years ago!!!
The last Crusade is toward the end of the 13th Century - 800 years ago!
So are you tring to say that just because someone did something 800 years ago that it is relevant to today? Are you trying to tell everyone that the Muslim world is still 800 years behind the modern one because they have not yet had their jihad against Europe? Perhaps the Pope should start calling all good Catholics up for an army to revive these 1000 year old crusades?
To equate the crusades to any modern time is ridiculous as I have just shown. Please try to keep discussions to the present time and take into account modern statehood rather than chuck around worthless histories. If we all decided that 1000 year old doctrine or methods were the way to deal with things we'd be in alsorts of trouble. There is no Caliphate (akin to the Catholic church at the times of the crusades) in the modern world so any comparison is rubbish.
Incidentally the USA was not involved in these crusades 800 years ago so I'm not sure how they fit into this kind of thinking.
Now I do agree with the last statement.
As for "ibm" - if he can show me 10 statements from well respected people who have power and influence in the Muslim world who have stood up and said something along the lines of "it doesn't matter, let the controversy die" or "who cares, this is not important", people who have genuinely tried to show that what was said was not an affront to Muslims within a 48 hr period of the original bruhaha then i shall retract the so called generalisation that he quotes, and eat my hat.
Last edited by iranu; 17-09-2006 at 08:36 AM.
"Reality is what it is, not what you want it to be." Frank Zappa. ----------- "The invisible and the non-existent look very much alike." Huang Po.----------- "A drowsy line of wasted time bathes my open mind", - Ride.
Because any war no matter how unjust is not genocide, genocide is -
"any of the following acts committed with intent to destroy, in whole or in part, a national, ethnic, racial or religious group, as such: Killing members of the group; Causing serious bodily or mental harm to members of the group; Deliberately inflicting on the group conditions of life calculated to bring about its physical destruction in whole or in part; Imposing measures intended to prevent births within the group; and forcibly transferring children of the group to another group."
Although quite frankly what that has to do with the pope I don't know.
Anyway, In my opinion organised religion as we know it today should be outlawed. Because while many may find comfort in belief, many more find comfort in using religion as an excuse to hate, categorise, murder and cause general mayhem.
The day the world gives up its comfort blanket it will become a nicer place to live.
I'm sure someone will reply to this with a "don't trivialise religion like that" or "how can you say that......." don't get me started, I've argued more times than I can remember about religion on these very forums, I don't not wish to do it again, I'm merely stating my opinion.
Fair enough.
A comment about high horses? From Iranu? No, it can't be! Whatever next?
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