Society is going all to hell and we're recording it on camera phones!

[nichomach]

"Liberals" came up because HE USED THE TERM. Apparently it's shorthand for lumping together all the people who might say something he doesn't like.

He's dismissive of the trauma caused by rape, claiming that it's only traumatic because an ill-defined group of people that he doesn't like say it is. As far as he's concerned, apparently, if we didn't make such a fuss, women who are raped would be absolutely fine, because apes are. That's HIS comparison, not mine.

As far as your summation of his thesis, that is NOT what he said;

there are MANY things worse in life than rape, and when you see the effect on other (fairly complex animals, bonobo's ie) then i think its more society tells people its worse than it really is, some people actually seam to want this fealing (self harm 2.0 - beyound the razer blades?)and as i've seen people can make very complete recoveries when they truely admit it, talk about it, and confront it. Pushing it to the back of the mind because of a socail phopar is the real tradogy, as is making it seam more horrific than it really is.

What he says is that society exaggerates the trauma of rape, and that if society didn't, then women (who apparently want to feel the trauma of being raped) would recover as quickly as monkeys, since it's obviously not as horrific as they think it is.

No-one's leaping to ANY conclusions; but TheAnimus has posted stuff here which is frankly nauseating and a hair's breadth from being evil. He trivialises the trauma of rape and denigrates the victims of it, and frankly that is an utterly disgusting spectacle.

[Bazzlad]

Seconded Nichodude.

[chicken]

Ah well I missed his reference to apes, but the part of the point I was re-iterating still stands, society makes rape worse, how much I couldn't really say because we have no experience outside of it, but a lot of girls won't admit they have been raped because they're afraid of the effect of admitting it to their peers. In that way apes are better off because of the lack of communication, and so it probably has less effect on them.

I think the social aspect of it is more to do with the damage done to someone's psyche as thinking of themselves as an individual and in control of their life. In contrast an Ape would have a lot less individuality and maybe even accept rape as something that just happens sometimes.

I'm backing out of this now because to contrast human and ape behaviour in such extreme terms would require tons of research, something that I doubt anyone here has.

[shelley bda]

its strange because i've always had a distinction between rape and abuse, i personally consider abuse to be very different too 'pro-longed repeative rape' which is the only way some people seam to think it is. blah blah, girls I know etc etc

Rape falls under the abuse umbrella - sexual abuse, there's also an element of emotional abuse there, i'd even put it under physical abuse, because it's a violent action against their person, to use the word abuse without clarifying what type is confusing

So shelly, i strongly disagree with your viewpoint, there are MANY things worse in life than rape, and when you see the effect on other (fairly complex animals, bonobo's ie) then i think its more society tells people its worse than it really is, some people actually seam to want this fealing (self harm 2.0 - beyound the razer blades?)and as i've seen people can make very complete recoveries when they truely admit it, talk about it, and confront it. Pushing it to the back of the mind because of a socail phopar is the real tradogy, as is making it seam more horrific than it really is.

Fair enough, don't care whether you agree with me or not tbh, don't know where you get this bullpoop about society etc etc, you make it sound as if being raped is something to be ashamed of? it isn't, the only reason why People feel ashamed when they are raped is because society makes them feel that way, even worse for a Man who is raped because People think that's something to laugh about, so he's more likely to suffer alone.

If you've never experienced it yourself then how on earth can you make judgements ( never mind what your attention seeking mates have been through ) you based your statements on 3 People you know, very interesting

I'm not even saying I fully agree with his statement, just trying to clarify it for those who have leapt to conclusions. I have no idea where the Liberals part comes into it!

And why do you feel the need to clarify what he's said? he can speak for himself can't he?

[Bazzlad]

I must say I've had a partner who was sexually abused too, it affected me in ways I can't describe, including panic attacks and paranoia, God knows what she went through, no one should ever make light of rape.

Just because a few attention seeking slags cry wolf doesn't mean we shouldn't sympathise with genuine victims.

[harry1]

the qu4stion is you cant tell the fakers anymore so i just dont bother.

shelly you cant make judgement either if you havent personally been raped, so dont criticise him its his opinion, it was mistaken the way hemeant it hence why chicken CLARIFIED.

[chicken]

As I said above I'm leaving this now because I consider it too many people arguing about things no-one here fully understands. All the little bits people do understand are clashing as a result and so we're getting nowhere.

I thought I'd answer this though as it isn't really part of the topic.

And why do you feel the need to clarify what he's said? he can speak for himself can't he?

I felt the need to clarify what he said because of the amount of abuse he was getting due to mis-quotes. He obviously wasn't managing to explain his point of view properly so I thought another angle might help everyone understand each other.

Believe it or not there is a point in what he's saying, it's just hidden in what looks like he's being abusive and lacking in research by anyone that it's almost impossible to explain, and as I'm getting flak for trying I'm not going to bother any more.

[nichomach]

shelly you cant make judgement either if you havent personally been raped, so dont criticise him its his opinion, it was mistaken the way hemeant it hence why chicken CLARIFIED.

Then unless either you, chicken, or TheAnimus has been raped, how on earth are YOUR opinions worth anything?

TheAnimus stated his opinion; chicken didn't "clarify" anything, since what he said had a clearly and unambiguously different meaning to the statements he was purporting to "clarify". TheAnimus was not misquoted; what he posted was sick.

[Knoxville]

Nevermind

[TheAnimus]

I can see where he's coming from, he's not saying in his opinion rape is a faux pas, he's saying that part of the reason it is so bad is because of society's reaction to it and the people involved.

If you're a rape victim and let people know, then it won't be long until your whole social circle is gossiping because it's one of those topics that gets sensationalised. It's that effect that I think TheAnimus is saying makes rape so much worse than the sum of the actions.

Correct me if I'm wrong Animus.

EXACTLY!

I'm not saying rape is not a terrible thing, just that a lot of the damage that happens (due to the action of a rapist) is in fact performed by the way society coupes dictates it be couped with. Its often people who feal the need to help (hence why i used the word liberal, thinking of the gaurdian reader sterotype) without actually thinking (understanding) the consiquences of their actions.

[Knoxville]

EXACTLY!

I'm not saying rape is not a terrible thing, just that a lot of the damage that happens (due to the action of a rapist) is in fact performed by the way society coupes dictates it be couped with. Its often people who feal the need to help (hence why i used the word liberal, thinking of the gaurdian reader sterotype) without actually thinking (understanding) the consiquences of their actions.

I'm sorry I still don't see how being violated both physically and pyschologically isn't as bad as the way your peer group will gossip about it. Yes the social stigma is a horrible thing to contend with, but its nothing compared to actually having been through it.

[TheAnimus]

I'm sorry I still don't see how being violated both physically and pyschologically isn't as bad as the way your peer group will gossip about it. Yes the social stigma is a horrible thing to contend with, but its nothing compared to actually having been through it.

sounds like your describing airport security.

Now, belive me when i say i KNOW from personal experiance for the two cases i mentioned previous, that it was the way they where treated by society, that made it worse. From been told how "terrible" it was again and again, hell even i said that. It helps re-enforce the notion that it is the worst thing that can happen (again, i said something along those lines).

One thing that always irritates me, is how people loose perspective, the one person i know i have most respsect for, well her step dad rented her, and that was the side of him i could begin to get a handle on (logical thought, making money deming her... all fits a standard profile) but other actions juts plain didn't. Compare a simple raiping at knife point, as was my #3 story. The knife point raping is nothing like as damaging, yet she has yet to of got over it. Why because shes not had any proper help, only told how horrific her audile must be. How the hell do you get over something when thats all your told? This is my point, this is from what i've seen the REAL damage.

goto that musiam about the spanish inquesistion, some of the things they did to woman would make you crave rape. But victims, are often given re-enforced victim rolls, told that nothing worse can happen, a lot bloody worse can happen, you've still got life, plenty to live, and will go on to have normal healthy relationships is in fact what you MUST tell someone, and i scincearly hoped that anyone who googles onto this, reads that message, and disregards the victim crap.

editffice beta broke my spell chequer!

[Knoxville]

sounds like your describing airport security.

Trivialise a serious crime in a serious debate, yeah...good one.....

Now, belive me when i say i KNOW from personal experiance for the two cases i mentioned previous, that it was the way they where treated by society, that made it worse. From been told how "terrible" it was again and again, hell even i said that. It helps re-enforce the notion that it is the worst thing that can happen (again, i said something along those lines).

You're not the only one who's been close to someone thats been raped. As for the negative re-enforcement you mention. I mentioned in my previous post, there are indeed worse things than rape. But is that what your supposed to say to a rape victim?

Chin up love, it could be worse?

No, any decent human being should try their best to concole and offer support.

One thing that always irritates me, is how people loose perspective, the one person i know i have most respsect for, well her step dad rented her, and that was the side of him i could begin to get a handle on (logical thought, making money deming her... all fits a standard profile) but other actions juts plain didn't. Compare a simple raiping at knife point, as was my #3 story. The knife point raping is nothing like as damaging, yet she has yet to of got over it. Why because shes not had any proper help, only told how horrific her audile must be. How the hell do you get over something when thats all your told? This is my point, this is from what i've seen the REAL damage.

Simple raping at knife point? yes there are varying degree's of severity when talking about any crime but to use the word simple in that context trivialise's it.

The reason people find it harder to get over events in their life that aren't as harsh as events in another persons life doesn't always come down to how much help they are offered, or any negative re-enforcement.

It comes from strength of character, some people are just plain stronger than others, be it mentally or physically.

goto that musiam about the spanish inquesistion, some of the things they did to woman would make you crave rape. But victims, are often given re-enforced victim rolls, told that nothing worse can happen, a lot bloody worse can happen, you've still got life, plenty to live, and will go on to have normal healthy relationships is in fact what you MUST tell someone, and i scincearly hoped that anyone who googles onto this, reads that message, and disregards the victim crap.

Have you been through rape counselling? no, so stop spouting pyscho-babble. people that have been raped are victims of a horrible crime, more horrific crimes do exist, I don't protest that and yes they still have a life to live, but some people will always take longer and find it harder to get over it than others.

[TheAnimus]

Trivialise a serious crime in a serious debate, yeah...good one.....

a great phrase "if you can't laugh at life, what can you laugh at (crippled kids because their dead inside)" i found it on a t-shirt worn by an austic kid in a wheel chair.

Chin up love, it could be worse?

no but you should never say its the worse thing that can happen to you.

Simple raping at knife point? yes there are varying degree's of severity when talking about any crime but to use the word simple in that context trivialise's it.
The reason people find it harder to get over events in their life that aren't as harsh as events in another persons life doesn't always come down to how much help they are offered, or any negative re-enforcement.
It comes from strength of character, some people are just plain stronger than others, be it mentally or physically.

yes, its a person by person case. But do you honestly think that the most major part of "recovery" is not the help and support they are given?

Have you been through rape counselling? no, so stop spouting pyscho-babble. people that have been raped are victims of a horrible crime, more horrific crimes do exist, I don't protest that and yes they still have a life to live, but some people will always take longer and find it harder to get over it than others.

no, but i've completed my child protection course. which included basic rape counselling (thou often it was more a case of you mustn't ever put ideas in kids heads, as it could effect legal procescusions).
What about your training?

[Knoxville]

I'm trained to deal with challenging behaviours, various mental disorders, basic training on how to deal with sexual assault/abuse within the community and care homes and various other avenues of mental healthcare.

[-ChEM-]

But she was really largely over it, her trust issues where virtually non excistant and she was a really loving person. But she did have commitment issues, However, considering any relationship with two under 16s in the situation like ours, the outcome was hardly surprising.

if you honestly think you can learn anything from a) her state at <16 years old and more importantly b) your ability to understand her state as a boy in an underage relationship, then god help you

unless youve had a relationship as two adults for many years you cant even begin to comment on how such a profoundly bad experience has affected your partner and the fact that you think you can and then relate it to monkeys (well apes) is just worrying