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Thread: Music backup for "shifting" soon to be legal

  1. #1
    lazy student nvening's Avatar
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    Music backup for "shifting" soon to be legal

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    Lovely chap dangel's Avatar
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    so will the industry stop mangling audio cds?
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    Drop it like it's hot Howard's Avatar
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    Has it stopped people before? Has anyone actually been arrested for it?
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  4. #4
    Mike Fishcake
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    Quote Originally Posted by Howard View Post
    Has it stopped people before? Has anyone actually been arrested for it?
    Not AFAIK, but it's nice to have something in the law that says it's ok so that music corporations don't try to take the wee-wee more than they're doing already.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Mike Fishcake View Post
    Not AFAIK, but it's nice to have something in the law that says it's ok so that music corporations don't try to take the wee-wee more than they're doing already.
    Where is there anything in the Gowers recommendations that would change the way music corporations currently take action?

    The "shifting" proposal is in relation to legally-held material, so it would allow you (for instance) to put a copy of a CD you own onto your MP3 player (which, currently, is not technically legal in the UK, unless you have permission from whoever owns copyright to do it). When was the last time a music company took action over that?

    But so far as things like downloading, uploading, P2P, piracy, counterfeiting, etc (which is where legal action gets taken) are concerned, where does Gowers suggest easing off on that? If anything, the opposite is true.

    Gowers certainly does recommend addressing the balance between consumer and rights holder by introducing another very specific "fair use" exception (in line with the point I made above), but overall, it's largely about protecting commercial interests and (and I quote)

    ....strengthening enforcement of IP rights, whether thorough clamping down on piracy or trade in counterfeit goods

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    Senior Member charleski's Avatar
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    The one thing that hasn't been mentioned in either the Gowers report or the IPPR review is how this right will affect the legitimacy of methods which crack encryption. If I have the right to backup a DVD I've bought, does that right supersede laws such as the EUCD that (theoretically) prevent me obtaining the tools I need to exercise that right?

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    lazy student nvening's Avatar
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    Yep, i was thinking about what will happen with dvds and css with shifting video for ipods, psps etc becomeing more and more popular.
    (\__/)
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  8. #8
    Mike Fishcake
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    Quote Originally Posted by Saracen View Post
    Where is there anything in the Gowers recommendations that would change the way music corporations currently take action?

    The "shifting" proposal is in relation to legally-held material, so it would allow you (for instance) to put a copy of a CD you own onto your MP3 player (which, currently, is not technically legal in the UK, unless you have permission from whoever owns copyright to do it). When was the last time a music company took action over that?
    Erm, that was the point I was actually making... under current law it's extremely, extremely unlikely that any record company will press charges because some guy has used itunes to rip a CD he owns to his ipod, BUT it's good to know that the law is being changed, so that ripping your own CDs to put on your own MP3 player is not in that "grey area". Just nice to have a bit of legal confirmation - that's all.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Mike Fishcake View Post
    Erm, that was the point I was actually making... under current law it's extremely, extremely unlikely that any record company will press charges because some guy has used itunes to rip a CD he owns to his ipod, BUT it's good to know that the law is being changed, so that ripping your own CDs to put on your own MP3 player is not in that "grey area". Just nice to have a bit of legal confirmation - that's all.
    So how are music corporations currently "taking the wee-wee", as you say they're already doing?

    By having the temerity to use the law to enforce the rights the law gives them? By going after people that breach those rights? That's precisely what Gowers is advocating should be strengthened.

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    Lovely chap dangel's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Saracen View Post
    So how are music corporations currently "taking the wee-wee", as you say they're already doing?

    By having the temerity to use the law to enforce the rights the law gives them? By going after people that breach those rights? That's precisely what Gowers is advocating should be strengthened.
    The law. Morality. Common sense. Sometimes one should consider the intersection of all three rather than just one.
    Personally I can't see anything the music industry has done in recent years to suggest they have any grasp of the latter two.
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  11. #11
    Mike Fishcake
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    Quote Originally Posted by Saracen View Post
    So how are music corporations currently "taking the wee-wee", as you say they're already doing?
    Where to start? Sony's lovely rootkit fiasco, only allowing custom programs on Windows systems to play the CD (easily bypassed by turning Autorun off). The RIAA's various bizarre bullying techniques, and all sorts of other methods used to prevent playing on PCs or Macs utilised by companies such as Warner, BMG and more.

    Don't get me wrong, I'm not saying that they shouldn't be allowed to protect their content - it goes without saying that people shouldn't be allowed to steal copyrighted music, but instead of treating their actual paying customers like naughty children by stopping them from using their music fairly, they should be allowing us some sort of freedom to allow us to play it on any equipment we own.

    The vast majority of people that own pirated music get it off torrent sites / p2p programs. Can you name me a copy protected album that isn't currently on several torrent sites? I doubt it. The pirates will work their way around it, free downloaders will carry on getting their music easily, and the only people disadvantaged will be those people that buy CDs to either make copies of to keep in their car (like I do) or rip to their MP3 players.

    No matter what they do to "prevent" copying, someone somewhere will bypass it, and despite measures brought into place to curb file sharing, I'm willing to bet that the vast, vast majority of people will get their free copyrighted music by downloading it rather than getting a copy off one of their mates.

    That is how they're taking the 'wee-wee'.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Mike Fishcake View Post
    ...BUT it's good to know that the law is being changed...
    It wouldn't surprise me if the law is being changed in more ways than one. In their lobbying, the record labels might well be trying to offset additional anti-consumer constraints with a 'good news' headline that enhances their reputation, and discourages resistance.

    Well, that's what I'd do if I was them, and out to screw everyone...

    Whether they're indeed trying to do that I don't actually know.

  13. #13
    www.5lab.co.uk
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    personally, i still don't see how thats taking the mick. lets consider a bank. they have big glass barriers with tiny holes you have to talk to the cashiers through - pretty annoying right? and of absolutely no use to the average consumer. yet theres maybe one-in-a-million customers who wants to rob the bank, and steal all their money. The bank doesnt want this, but the only option they have is to treat all the customers like "naughty children", so that they don't get robbed.

    is it flawless? no. banks still get robbed.

    does it help? certainly

    now, i don't agree with the secret rootkit side of things, but i've no opposition to a record company trying to protect its own property by using drm and restricting copywrite in anyway they can. its currently illegal to rip a cd anyway, so if they want to enforce that by making it hard for you to do so, fair play.
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  14. #14
    Mike Fishcake
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    Quote Originally Posted by 5lab View Post
    now, i don't agree with the secret rootkit side of things, but i've no opposition to a record company trying to protect its own property by using drm and restricting copywrite in anyway they can. its currently illegal to rip a cd anyway, so if they want to enforce that by making it hard for you to do so, fair play.
    Well we're going to have to agree to disagree there then. I think that if I buy a CD I should be allowed to listen to it in whatever method I like.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Mike Fishcake View Post
    Well we're going to have to agree to disagree there then. I think that if I buy a CD I should be allowed to listen to it in whatever method I like.
    Agreed. I'm always of the belief that copyright should provide an incentive to create, by granting the right for others to read / listen / view your work in exchange for some income.

    Controlling the means of access to the work strikes me as outside of what copyright is (or IMO, should be) all about.

    If I decided to grant access to my new album, on condition that everyone listening is legally required to listen to it while hopping on one leg wearing a gimp suit, I'm not sure such draconian licensing really falls within copyright's remit.

    Sure, the labels aren't introducing that particular requirement anytime soon, but the point remains. IMO, copyright should be about buying a license to listen to the creative work, with no further conditions attached.

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    HEXUS.social member Agent's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by 5lab View Post
    now, i don't agree with the secret rootkit side of things, but i've no opposition to a record company trying to protect its own property by using drm and restricting copywrite in anyway they can. its currently illegal to rip a cd anyway, so if they want to enforce that by making it hard for you to do so, fair play.
    And there is the issue. They can try, but the chances of a 100% unbreakable DRM system is slim.
    The major flaw being that you have to give both the protected content and the keys to access this content to the person at some point, in some form or another.

    So in the process of "trying" to "protect" their content, they often end up hurting the real paying customers too. Ya know, the ones that actually pay their wages.
    Quote Originally Posted by Saracen View Post
    And by trying to force me to like small pants, they've alienated me.

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