non-TN LCD for photo editing? (not 2408WFP!)
Now don't get me wrong, I absolutely adore my hulking great 21" Trinitron & don't intend to part with it until it dies (which will probably be a veeeeery long time from now) however it simply cannot reach the required contrast ratio to be viable for photo editing. It's not a problem with settings or calibration (both OSD & driver level), it's more a problem with the monitor itself (it was even worse with the last one I had). The problem is that detail just disappears into the shadows on dark/contrasty photos.
So I'm thinking about another monitor to run alongside it, replacing the ageing 17" NEC MultiSync LCD that currently sits there. The ideal choice would be a Dell 2408WFP, but a.) I don't need 24" & b.) there's no way I can afford the ~£380 price tag, even if Santa is extra-generous this year. The Dell 2009WFP looked perfect at first, however I then discovered that despite bearing the 'UltraSharp' badge it actually has a TN panel. The department has recently bought several hundred of them for lab upgrades & they're not particularily wonderful to look at, especially from the sides (whites take on a bright pink tint!).
So I'm looking for a ~20" LCD with a non-TN panel (so VA or IPS) which doesn't cost a fortune. I couldn't care less about input lag or ghosting, because I've got a 1600*1200 100Hz monster for anything that needs speed, all I'm concerned about is accurate colour reproduction & a good contrast ratio. I don't really want to hunt down a refurb 2007WFP because it'll be pot luck with the quality & when it breaks under warranty they will probably replace it with a TN 2009WFP :(
Any ideas?
Re: non-TN LCD for photo editing? (not 2408WFP!)
I think you are going to struggle to find anything suitable and of the professional quality with a SIPS or *VA panel you ask for without spending £350 plus I'm afraid.
If you are prepared to go for a used device then cheaper possibilities are available however.
Perhaps others here will have some suggestions but all mine are expensive! Sorry.
Re: non-TN LCD for photo editing? (not 2408WFP!)
have a scout around for the original Yuraku 24" (see my 'my system') ones, ~£200 for a PVA, but some TNs have started creeping in again, so it's a bit of a panel lottery unless you go for the retailers that guarantee it is a PVA for you...
Re: non-TN LCD for photo editing? (not 2408WFP!)
Quote:
Originally Posted by
cambridge_blue
I think you are going to struggle to find anything suitable and of the professional quality with a SIPS or *VA panel you ask for without spending £350 plus I'm afraid.
That's what I was afraid of :( Is it too much to ask these days for a mainstream LCD to match a 20 year old CRT for colours? It seems yes :(
Quote:
If you are prepared to go for a used device then cheaper possibilities are available however.
I'd rather not go second hand for a decent LCD, you get no guarantees on the backlights & I quite like having a warranty for any big investments.
Quote:
have a scout around for the original Yuraku 24" (see my 'my system') ones, ~£200 for a PVA, but some TNs have started creeping in again, so it's a bit of a panel lottery unless you go for the retailers that guarantee it is a PVA for you...
Any links to these retailers that guarantee MVA/PVA? I've had a look round & found them as cheap as ~£170, around £200 on Amazon, but no mentions of panel type. I vaguely remember trying to source one of these for a guy at work back in the summer but never had any luck...
Edit - after further research it seems even the MVA version isn't particularily stunning :(
Re: non-TN LCD for photo editing? (not 2408WFP!)
You want the NEC mutli-sync WMGX2 20", if you can still find it.
Otherwise look for an LCD TV.
Re: non-TN LCD for photo editing? (not 2408WFP!)
Quote:
Originally Posted by
lost eden
Any links to these retailers that guarantee MVA/PVA? I've had a look round & found them as cheap as ~£170, around £200 on Amazon, but no mentions of panel type. I vaguely remember trying to source one of these for a guy at work back in the summer but never had any luck...
hmm... i've just had a scout around and can't find any trace of them (:(), i can't remember what etailer/s it was either (:()
edit: http://www.chilledpc.co.uk/shop/prod...roducts_id=952
looks promising with the 180/180 viewing angles, you could try asking Tom on their forum, or PM him on here (i think he's welshtom on here)
Re: non-TN LCD for photo editing? (not 2408WFP!)
You can use idealo.co.uk's advanced search to search for LCDs of different panel types - it isn't perfect, but double-checking with tftcentral is always a good idea. I believe the cheapest is currently the Digimate L2442WB (iirc), incorrectly listed as S-IPS when it's actually a *VA type panel. Not HDCP capable, I think.
Re: non-TN LCD for photo editing? (not 2408WFP!)
I bought a one year old 20" Phillips 200W6CS last year for around £150 and it has a P-MVA panel - the earlier version had a IPS panel. Other good monitors include the 20" AS-IPS NEC 20WGX2 and the 21" S-PVA Samsung 215TW. All of these monitors have got good reviews. If you check Ebay you maybe able to get old new stock of these monitors still if you are patient.
Re: non-TN LCD for photo editing? (not 2408WFP!)
Quote:
Originally Posted by
kalniel
Otherwise look for an LCD TV.
How does an LCD TV perform better than a regular monitor? Aren't they just the same TN panels just with a wider variety of connectors?
Quote:
Originally Posted by TAKTAK
looks promising with the 180/180 viewing angles, you could try asking Tom on their forum, or PM him on here (i think he's welshtom on here)
After reading the review beneath, I'm not too sure about this particular monitor.
http://www.prad.de/en/monitore/revie...-yv24wbh1.html
Quote:
Originally Posted by colmo
I believe the cheapest is currently the Digimate L2442WB
Looking around online (& even just looking at the pictures of the monitor itself) this looks to be exactly the same as the Yuraku discussed above, so probably falls short in the same places mentioned in the link after the prvious quote.
Re: non-TN LCD for photo editing? (not 2408WFP!)
Quote:
Originally Posted by
lost eden
i disagree with parts of that article, it's the kind of monitor that everyone picks flaws at because they want it to be worse than their £600 offering... so TBH you need to view it in the flesh to see the panel quality and the (TBF) slightly tacky surround.
Plus the fact that what goes for one may not apply to another... as there are multiple panels out there for the one monitor model, it's just look of the draw as to which you get, in my case i got the same panel used in some of the eizo's (obv it can't match the eizo's superior backlight/osd/and surround but it does a good job considering the price saving...)
Re: non-TN LCD for photo editing? (not 2408WFP!)
Quote:
Originally Posted by
lost eden
Now don't get me wrong, I absolutely adore my hulking great 21" Trinitron & don't intend to part with it until it dies (which will probably be a veeeeery long time from now) however it simply cannot reach the required contrast ratio to be viable for photo editing. It's not a problem with settings or calibration (both OSD & driver level), it's more a problem with the monitor itself (it was even worse with the last one I had). The problem is that detail just disappears into the shadows on dark/contrasty photos.
So I'm thinking about another monitor to run alongside it, replacing the ageing 17" NEC MultiSync LCD that currently sits there. The ideal choice would be a Dell 2408WFP, but a.) I don't need 24" & b.) there's no way I can afford the ~£380 price tag, even if Santa is extra-generous this year. The Dell 2009WFP looked perfect at first, however I then discovered that despite bearing the 'UltraSharp' badge it actually has a TN panel. The department has recently bought several hundred of them for lab upgrades & they're not particularily wonderful to look at, especially from the sides (whites take on a bright pink tint!).
So I'm looking for a ~20" LCD with a non-TN panel (so VA or IPS) which doesn't cost a fortune. I couldn't care less about input lag or ghosting, because I've got a 1600*1200 100Hz monster for anything that needs speed, all I'm concerned about is accurate colour reproduction & a good contrast ratio. I don't really want to hunt down a refurb 2007WFP because it'll be pot luck with the quality & when it breaks under warranty they will probably replace it with a TN 2009WFP :(
Any ideas?
If you are really interested in good colour accuracy and contrast you need to spend decent money for a good monitor and a colour calibration tool. I assume that you do calibrate your monitor??
Colour accuracy and gamut are not only due to the panel type but also the backlight used in the monitor. At work I have used both the Dell 2408WFP and Mac studio displays.
How long is it going to take to save up for a better monitor?? I would personally wait a few months and get a good £300 to £500 monitor and a colour calibration tool. Also there probably will be price reductions in January do the sales too. At least with the more expensive monitors there will be some consistency in what panels are used. You will also probably have a better warranty too than some unknown or budget brands especially when it comes to things like dead pixels.
A monitor will last a good few years so it is worth spending more on a better one.
Re: non-TN LCD for photo editing? (not 2408WFP!)
Quote:
Originally Posted by
CAT-THE-FIFTH
If you are really interested in good colour accuracy and contrast you need to spend decent money for a good monitor and a colour calibration tool. I assume that you do calibrate your monitor??
Colour accuracy and gamut are not only due to the panel type but also the backlight used in the monitor. At work I have used both the Dell 2408WFP and Mac studio displays.
How long is it going to take to save up for a better monitor?? I would personally wait a few months and get a good £300 to £500 monitor and a colour calibration tool. Also there probably will be price reductions in January do the sales too. At least with the more expensive monitors there will be some consistency in what panels are used. You will also probably have a better warranty too than some unknown or budget brands especially when it comes to things like dead pixels.
A monitor will last a good few years so it is worth spending more on a better one.
I'm not looking for a 'professional' quality display, I don't want to spend money on a hardware calibration device, etc. Photography is a hobby for me, not a profession. I'm a relatively poor student living in one of the most expensive towns in the UK (my rent is well over double the UK average) so 'saving up' isn't really an option - even if I did save up £500, I wouldn't be able to justify spending it all on a new monitor when I already have a great Trinitron that handles everything else just fine.
I'm not expecting to get the quality of an NEC SpectraView or an Eizo FlexScan for the sort of money that I might be able to invest. I just want something that will have 'good enough' colours & contrast that when I edit a photo & stick it online or email it to someone, that they will be seeing vaguely the same thing that I am. ATM if I edit on my CRT then what I see is far darker & shadowy & if I edit on my LCD or my laptop then what I see probably has wholly incorrect colours.
(Also, no, I don't calibrate my CRT, as I can never even get past the first steps of setting brightness/contrast, as it simply doesnt go that far.)
Re: non-TN LCD for photo editing? (not 2408WFP!)
I have been a student too and I know how it feels to spend around 60% of my monthly income on rent.
I ended up looking on Ebay as you can get some good deals on nearly new and new "old stock"
monitors. A lot of reputable companies have outlets on Ebay ranging from Pentax UK to Calumet Photographic. Even companies like HP have an Ebay store and they sell monitors too.
I bought my last two LCD monitors from Ebay and they are bought still going strong. The first one was a new "old stock" one which was under the manufacterers warranty and cost half the UK RRP.
Most budget monitors are 6 bit displays optimised for watching films and gaming. They are not that great for photo editing. The monitors I suggested are all decent monitors for photographic purposes as they are 8 bit and got rave reviews for this. You can pick them up for under 150 quid.
Why not try to get hold of one of the professional Eizo or Ilyama CRT displays? They do not sell for much now but are reliable and have excellent image quality.
Also the calibration device only cost around £50 brand new anyway from Calumets Ebay site. I only bought it as I got fed up when I realised the colours of my pictures looked very different from any prints I made. I consider it an excellent investment and I am amateur myself(not a very rich one either).
Re: non-TN LCD for photo editing? (not 2408WFP!)
Quote:
Originally Posted by
CAT-THE-FIFTH
I have been a student too and I know how it feels to spend around 60% of my monthly income on rent.
(Puts on a Monty Python voice) You were lucky! If our rent was that low, then our student flat would be pulling in £32k a year! I don't even have time to work during term time (I spend at least 30 hours a week just in the lab, before you even consider lectures & tutorials & all the work I do at home too). I suppose it's the price I pay for getting a respectable degree?
Quote:
I ended up looking on Ebay as you can get some good deals on nearly new and new "old stock"
monitors. A lot of reputable companies have outlets on Ebay ranging from Pentax UK to Calumet Photographic. Even companies like HP have an Ebay store and they sell monitors too.
I bought my last two LCD monitors from Ebay and they are bought still going strong. The first one was a new "old stock" one which was under the manufacterers warranty and cost half the UK RRP.
My biggest concern with LCDs from eBay is lack of warranties. I simply can't drop £150 on a display to have it break 3 months later. So if I did go down that route, I would only be considering those that carried full manufacturers warranties (even these aren't always any good, such as a VA 2007WFP - if it breaks & they can't repair it, they'll send you a TN 2009WFP!).
Quote:
Why not try to get hold of one of the professional Eizo or Ilyama CRT displays? They do not sell for much now but are reliable and have excellent image quality.
I am a huge fan of CRTs, but I really want to make the move to LCD when I make my next monitor investment. The main reason is size - I simply don't have space to set up a large CRT in a good viewing position (I have to have my P275 off to one side of my desk, because the desk itself isn't deep enough or strong enough to take the weight). Also, if there's one thing that I have grown to loathe over the years, it is calibrating all of the gemoetry on a CRT... I'm also paranoid of running into the same problems that I've had with my last 4x big CRTs - just like my current P275, they were all too dark (or if I cranked the brightness up, the colours became washed out).
Re: non-TN LCD for photo editing? (not 2408WFP!)
You think you had it hard - in my day.....(Monty Python - Four Yorkshiremen sketch!). At least you have a computer!! :) I only got my first computer when I started working because the £800+ cost for a notebook back then was way out of my price league. It is shockng how much the cost of computing has dropped in the last two years!!
Regarding the amount of work you do - it only gets worse as you go up the education ladder! :( . A lot of post grads and post -docs work 6 to 7 days a week in the lab frequently doing 10 to 12 hour days.
In my experience I have never seen a LCD backlight fail personally or with anybody I have ever known - this includes LCD monitors over 5 years old!!
Re: non-TN LCD for photo editing? (not 2408WFP!)
Had a long hard think & I'm tempted to buy a 2007WFP for myself as a Christmas present. There seems to be one reputable eBay seller that has 2 up for grabs atm, both with a 3-year warranty from Dell (though as I mentioned before, if I ever need to use this I may run into problems with Dell not having a comparable monitor to replace it with, as the 2009WFP is TN).
But now I have to decide whether I can live with one dead pixel (towards the centre of the screen) for £159.99 (http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/ws/eBayISAPI.d...m=330281961090) or whether I want a no dead pixel guarantee for £60 MORE (http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/ws/eBayISAPI.d...m=330291053180). My 17" NEC MultiSync has a bright red dead pixel towards one side which I don't really notice unless I'm looking for it, so I'm wondering whether it's really worth an extra £60 to have no dead pixels? Also, what colour are dead pixels on S-IPS panels? I know that on TN they can be white, black, or any of the primary colours, but don't know as much about S-IPS.
