What graphics card have you got?

[CAT-THE-FIFTH]

No really, it's not.

Then consider other cheap DX10 cards -the 8400, 9400, 9500 series for example - all absolutely woeful compared to the high end dx9 cards like the X1950XTX, 7950 etc.. As are the 2350, 2400, 3450, 3470, 3650, 4350, etc etc. from AMD.

Their numbering schemes may lead you to think that their DX10 cards are all faster than previous generations cards, but it's just marketing speil.

Look at poll and the cards listed. Apart from the 2900 series which I forgot to add then any other DX10 card I have not listed I do not consider a gaming card.

I said gaming cards - the ones you listed are NOT on the poll and nobody would them MODERN consider gaming cards.

Your info is a few years out of date.

So you are telling me that an HD3870 which is around the speed of a 2900XT which was much faster than a X1950XTX is slower?

So basically you are saying that ATI's fastest card until the HD3850X2 and HD3870X2 in MODERN GAMES is an X1950XTX.

So basically in Crysis an X1950XTX would be faster than an HD3870!
Nonsense!!

The 9600GT is as fast as a HD3870. I also have an HD3870 and had X19** series cards too.

Here is one review which shows that the HD3850 is even faster than an X1950XTX:

http://www.anandtech.com/video/showdoc.aspx?i=3151&p=9

[kalniel]

I said gaming cards

The ones I listed are gaming cards and are sold as such in most shops.

So you are telling me that an HD3870 which is around the speed of a 2900XT which was much faster than a X1950XTX is slower?

Not at all - but they aren't el-cheapo gaming cards either - they are high end ones.

So basically you are saying that ATI's fastest card until the HD3850X2 and HD3870X2 in MODERN GAMES is an X1950XTX.

Baring other high end models, yes, absolutely.

So basically in Crysis an X1950XTX would be faster than an HD3870!

The HD3870 is a high end card, so I'd expect it to be fast, but I don't think it's a world away from the X1950XTX in most modern games, no. Crysis is of course not typical of a modern game.

Here is one review which shows that the HD3850 is even faster than an X1950XTX:

http://www.anandtech.com/video/showdoc.aspx?i=3151&p=9

As I'd expect from a high end card.

[Pob255]

if you want to look back at the 8800gts 640mb (which was part of the top range and was and still is slightly faster than a 8800gt 512mb at stock speeds)
then also look at the 8600gt which was slower and more expensive than the 7900gs
current £100+ cards are better than the old top end dx9 cards.

The two main changes we had has been moving from 256mb to 512mb as the most common amount and larger screens coming down in price so they have become far more common.
The higher memory performs better with higher resolutions and game developers have been taking advantage of the higher memory to increase texture sizes and numbers.

[CAT-THE-FIFTH]

The ones I listed are gaming cards and are sold as such in most shops.

Not at all - but they aren't el-cheapo gaming cards either - they are high end ones.

Baring other high end models, yes, absolutely.

The HD3870 is a high end card, so I'd expect it to be fast, but I don't think it's a world away from the X1950XTX in most modern games, no. Crysis is of course not typical of a modern game.


As I'd expect from a high end card.

Except most people buy them on-line as everybody knows that shops are expensive. Even my most technology impaired friends know this and always check prices on-line first.

Why do you think that many PC shops are going out of business or are struggling to remain profitable?

How many shops readily stock cards anyway??

Your info is a few years out of date.

The HD3850 and 9600gt are around 65 to 75 quid anyway. HD3870 cards are under 100 quid. 8800GT/9800GT and HD4830 cards are under 100 quid.They are considered cheap gaming cards.

Pretty much anything over 65 quid will be faster than your existing card nowadays. Crysis is a good test of a cards ability as was Farcry years before.

If a game can run well on an old X1950XTX then any £65+ will run it at the same settings just as well or better.

I have seen 8800GT cards for 80 quid instore and 8800GS cards for around 50 to 75 quid. The 8800GS is similar in speed to an HD3850.

High end is anything over £100 and anything under £100 are budget and middle end cards. It has been this way for years.

Anyway this is my view and you have yours. I think we should end it at that!

[kalniel]

Except most people buy them on-line as everybody knows that shops are expensive.

Most geeks/technologically aware people might, but I don't think that counts as everybody, or even neccessarily a majority of people.

Why do you think that many PC shops are going out of business or are struggling to remain profitable?

Inability to get access to credit and thus maintain cash flow. What that has to do with graphics cards I don't know.

How many shops readily stock cards anyway??

Most computer related shops do.

Your info is a few years out of date.

? Information about a card can't go out of date - it either runs as stated or doesn't - if something used to be faster than another card then that fact doesn't go out of date.

High end is anything over £100 and anything under £100 are budget and middle end cards. It has been this way for years.

Ahh - when you called the X1950XTX 'top-end' I assumed you were applying some other criteria to gauge market segment, like say market segment at the time of release. Had I known that by saying 'top-end' you actually meant 'low-end in terms of todays price' or something not related to being 'high' I might have understood a bit better.

[Fraz]

Gotta say I totally agree with Kalniel. There are some woefully crap £30 DX10 cards out there that would be pulverised by top-end DX9 cards from 2 years ago.

I've seen so many people think their 8600 was better than a top-end nvidia 7 series purely because it had a higher starting number. The 8600 was in fact a total joke.

[CAT-THE-FIFTH]

Most geeks/technologically aware people might, but I don't think that counts as everybody, or even neccessarily a majority of people.

Inability to get access to credit and thus maintain cash flow. What that has to do with graphics cards I don't know.

Most computer related shops do.

I have known many people who are not that technologically aware that shop on-line and have done so for years. These people would not have a clue about most computer tech either.

Why do they do this?? Basically it is cheaper and they can have more choice too.


Most smaller shops I know have problems with sales due to the competition from on-line retailers. Basically many cannot even get stock at prices online retailers sell the cards at. Also when PCWorld have special deals they cannot compete with that either as these "loss leaders" which PCWorld have are sold at prices which even the suppliers of the small firms cannot match.

With the worsening economic climate people will look for the cheapest price for anything they want to buy and hence more people than ever are using on-line retailers.

[Pob255]

Where are you getting these numbers from??
the 8800gs is pants, the only 8800gt it could come close to was the 256mb version which was also rubbish.
the 9600gt always performed slightly below the 3870 not above it.

kalniel does seem a little out of date, but the initial dx10 cards were bad performers except the very top range cards and thoes where very expensive (I seem to remember that the 8800gts 320mb was just over £225)

The situation changed with the release of the 3850 & 3870 and rushed launch of the 8800gt in response. these where not mid range cards but high end cards sold at mid range prices.
And this basic situation is still true today, we have the low-high end cards at the mid range cost of the £100 mark.

the 9600gt and 4670 are now the budget gaming cards and will have overtaken the top end dx9 cards.
That said cards below these are still badly marketed as "gaming" cards even when they really are not up to the task and would be overtaken by older high end dx9 cards
give me the choise of a 9400gt or x1900xtx to game on and it's the x1900xtx, or more probably option C, I'll go out and buy a better one myself.

[CAT-THE-FIFTH]

Gotta say I totally agree with Kalniel. There are some woefully crap £30 DX10 cards out there that would be pulverised by top-end DX9 cards from 2 years ago.

I've seen so many people think their 8600 was better than a top-end nvidia 7 series purely because it had a higher starting number. The 8600 was in fact a total joke.

Considering that the 8600GT is not made anymore it is not a valid argument in 2009. You people are still stuck in year 2007 and early 2008 mode.

Budget graphics cards have moved on in heaps nowadays.

The 9600GSO,9600GT,8800GS,HD3850 and HD4670 have occupied the place that the 8600GT and 2600XT once had for months now. They all cost under £75.

These cards will do fine in many modern games.

Another fact that many people are not realising is that modern consoles are putting immense pressure on the lower and middle end gaming market. Hence it is in the interest of ATI and Nvidia to introduce affordable gaming cards too. I know many former pc gamers who have moved entirely over to consoles!!


The fact of the matter is that if people cannot be bothered to do the proper research on anything before they buy it is their problem. This is true not only for computers but for many things. There are so many magazines available in shops and free on-line sites which do reviews that it is mind-boggling that people cannot be bothered to even do a quick 10 minute check.

Even my most non-tech savvy friend do this so it is not an excuse to say you have not done it.

[CAT-THE-FIFTH]

Where are you getting these numbers from??
the 8800gs is pants, the only 8800gt it could come close to was the 256mb version which was also rubbish.
the 9600gt always performed slightly below the 3870 not above it.

kalniel does seem a little out of date, but the initial dx10 cards were bad performers except the very top range cards and thoes where very expensive (I seem to remember that the 8800gts 320mb was just over £225)

The situation changed with the release of the 3850 & 3870 and rushed launch of the 8800gt in response. these where not mid range cards but high end cards sold at mid range prices.
And this basic situation is still true today, we have the low-high end cards at the mid range cost of the £100 mark.

the 9600gt and 4670 are now the budget gaming cards and will have overtaken the top end dx9 cards.
That said cards below these are still badly marketed as "gaming" cards even when they really are not up to the task and would be overtaken by older high end dx9 cards
give me the choise of a 9400gt or x1900xtx to game on and it's the x1900xtx, or more probably option C, I'll go out and buy a better one myself.

I was talking about the HD3870 with AA on. Without AA it is faster. I should know - I have an HD3870!! The 8800GS/9600GSO is actually not that bad with the newer drivers. The HD3850 is faster but the 9600GSO is comparable to an HD4670 though.

[Fraz]

Considering that the 8600GT is not made anymore it is not a valid argument in 2009. You people are still stuck in year 2007 and early 2008 mode.

Dude, I'm aware of this. It was an example - yes, it's slightly out of date.

I can use Moore's law to argue my point if you like.

2 years is the timescale you are talking about. So let's say that in that time on average things are now about 3 times faster than they were 2 years ago. Now, I'm pretty sure that the top end of any graphics card range is spread over way more than than a factor of 3 in performance terms. You just have to look at the amount of stream processors, etc, across the range. An (old) example of this might be the 8800GTX (top end) and the 8600GT (mid range). The 8600 GT had 32 stream processors, and the GTX had 128. And that is from top-end to mid range, and yet we see approximately a 4-times performance decrease.

Ergo, in a 2 year timescale, there is no way a top-end graphics card from 2 years ago (prob even three) is worse than the very bottom of today's ranges.

[Fraz]

The 9600GSO,9600GT,8800GS,HD3850 and HD4670 have occupied the place that the 8600GT and 2600XT once had for months now. They all cost under £75.

I think the disagreement we are having here is what "budget" means. I don't think the above are particularly budget. £75 is pretty mid-range in my eyes.

Now £30 - that's budget.

[CAT-THE-FIFTH]

Dude, I'm aware of this. It was an example - yes, it's slightly out of date.

I can use Moore's law to argue my point if you like.

2 years is the timescale you are talking about. So let's say that in that time on average things are now about 3 times faster than they were 2 years ago. Now, I'm pretty sure that the top end of any graphics card range is spread over way more than than a factor of 3 in performance terms. You just have to look at the amount of stream processors, etc, across the range. An (old) example of this might be the 8800GTX (top end) and the 8600GT (mid range). The 8600 GT had 32 stream processors, and the GTX had 128. And that is from top-end to mid range, and yet we see approximately a 4-times performance decrease.

Ergo, in a 2 year timescale, there is no way a top-end graphics card from 2 years ago (prob even three) is worse than the very bottom of today's ranges.

But the whole issue that kalniel was making was that even a cheap modern DX10 gaming card was NOT faster than a previous high end card from over two years ago.

The whole point is that a low end card has never been considered a gaming card EVER.

A gaming card is considered different from a card meant for very casual gaming(like SIMs or older titles) and media use.

The fact of the matter is that an HD3850 is still faster than a X1950XTX. It can be had for 65 quid.
This is a budget gaming card.

An 8400GS for under 30 quid is not a gaming card. It is a media card.

This is my view at least.

Look what happened with the Pentium D and Core2 processors. A bog standard E4*** or E21** over 1.6ghz is still faster in most things than a top-end Pentium D processor.

Is Core2 considered high-end?? No it is not.

Anyway I think this should end now. My definition of what a budget gaming card is different from what you think it is.

[Fraz]

Yes, fair enough. I guess a true budget gaming card is different from the joke cards that manufacturers say are gaming cards even when they are blatantly not..

[CAT-THE-FIFTH]

I think that the marketing departments are the problem as usual. Perhaps they need actual gamers to be involved in marketing. At least it would be fairer.

[kalniel]

I think that the marketing departments are the problem as usual. Perhaps they need actual gamers to be involved in marketing. At least it would be fairer.

You expect nVidia to sell a card that's advertised as 'having no use whatsoever - just stick with the onboard intel chip for your games of solitaire love'