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Thread: 4650 64 bit bus

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    4650 64 bit bus

    I though 4650 DDR2 cards were always 128 bit bus, so just a tad slower than the 4670.

    Since when have they been 64 bit??

    http://www.ebuyer.com/product/176023

    The Sapphire one is also 64 bit.

    The 1GB Asus card is 128 bit, but I don't really want that much graphics ram on a 32 bit machine (or can someone convince me that isn't really an issue?).

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    Not a good person scaryjim's Avatar
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    Re: 4650 64 bit bus

    The low profile 512MB cards seem to be 1GB cards with half the memory chips taken off, which necessitates the halved memory bandwidth. Why they can't use more memory chips of smaller size I don't know, though. I've seen an increasing number of non-reference 4000-series cards cutting back the specifications on cards: XFX seem to be particularly bad offenders with DDR2 4550 and 4670s, 64bit 4650s etc.

    Is this Win XP 32bit? If so you won't use anywhere near enough memory in general usage to make the loss of addressable memory due to the graphics RAM an issue. And remember that the only other low profile card with anything like similar performance is the 5570, which is almost £30 more expensive and is only currently available in a 1GB version...

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    Re: 4650 64 bit bus

    The sapphire 4650 low profile should be 128bit
    http://www.sapphiretech.com/presenta...000101&pid=274

    However yes some 4650 seem to be 64bit and some 128bit (although sapphire list all there 4650's as 128bit)
    Although I'm not sure how much of an issue that will actually be, it's mainly important for 3d work that the 4650 just hasn't quiet got the power for.

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    Re: 4650 64 bit bus

    Quote Originally Posted by scaryjim View Post
    Why they can't use more memory chips of smaller size I don't know, though.
    Because it's cheaper. It always saves money to buy more of a single component that can be used across a product range compared to buying different components for each product in smaller quantities.
    ____
    (='.'=)
    (")_(")

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    Re: 4650 64 bit bus

    Quote Originally Posted by Pob255 View Post
    The sapphire 4650 low profile should be 128bit
    The one available on ebuyer is a different SKU to the one you linked. The box shot on the ebuyer one clearly states "64-bit" (like it's a selling point?! WTF!?!)

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    Re: 4650 64 bit bus

    Quote Originally Posted by scaryjim View Post
    The low profile 512MB cards seem to be 1GB cards with half the memory chips taken off, which necessitates the halved memory bandwidth. Why they can't use more memory chips of smaller size I don't know, though. I've seen an increasing number of non-reference 4000-series cards cutting back the specifications on cards: XFX seem to be particularly bad offenders with DDR2 4550 and 4670s, 64bit 4650s etc.

    Is this Win XP 32bit? If so you won't use anywhere near enough memory in general usage to make the loss of addressable memory due to the graphics RAM an issue. And remember that the only other low profile card with anything like similar performance is the 5570, which is almost £30 more expensive and is only currently available in a 1GB version...
    There was a full height and low profile card on there with a 64 bit interface, so they seem to be cost cutting across the board

    This is my son's machine, running World of Warcraft on XP home. Wow requires at least 2GB of ram to run well, as it has a hard disk footprint of I think now 16GB of world data that it is constantly swapping in and out.

    Now I have calmed down a little, does anyone know how much ram you have on a 4GB XP machine with a 1GB PCIe graphics card plugged in? I think Windows only shows 3GB anyway atm using the 128MB sideport IGP which I think grabs a little system ram as well as the sideport. If it still shows around 3GB I could handle that.

    Or perhaps I use this to justify getting a GTS 260 for my machine and hand me down the 512MB 8800

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    Does he need a reason? Funkstar's Avatar
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    Re: 4650 64 bit bus

    Quote Originally Posted by scaryjim View Post
    The low profile 512MB cards seem to be 1GB cards with half the memory chips taken off, which necessitates the halved memory bandwidth. Why they can't use more memory chips of smaller size I don't know, though.
    Space constraints? You half the size of the card, but you want them to use the same number of chips?

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    Re: 4650 64 bit bus

    I think he might mean lower capacity not smaller size.
    I think more to the point why are they making Higher capacity GDDR2 chips?

    ps it's a gtx260 or a gts250

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    Does he need a reason? Funkstar's Avatar
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    Re: 4650 64 bit bus

    Quote Originally Posted by Pob255 View Post
    I think he might mean lower capacity not smaller size.
    Exactly. If you have 16x 64MB chips on the 1GB card (for example) then you either have 16x 32MB chips for the 512MB card or 8x 64MB chips.

    To maintain the bandwidth you would need the 16x 32MB chips, so the card would have the same number of components and traces as the full height card in about two thirds the space. Stretching out the card to be extra long is going to cause design issues and made it far less desirable for the people that want a low profile card, so they aren't going to do that.

    Physically smaller chips mean higher density, if they are available (probably not) then they would be far more expensive anyway, making the low profile card even more expensive that the standard one, and even less people would buy it.

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    root Member DanceswithUnix's Avatar
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    Re: 4650 64 bit bus

    Quote Originally Posted by Pob255 View Post
    I think he might mean lower capacity not smaller size.
    I think more to the point why are they making Higher capacity GDDR2 chips?
    I thought they were straight ddr2, not gddr2, and there must still be a huge market for ddr2. I guess the smaller chips are now not cost competative with the larger ones so 512MB of big chips is cheaper than twice as many lower capacity ones. Consumer electronics is like that, and I don't have a problem with design changes as parts obsolete.

    However, this deserves to be called "4650le" or "4630". Halving the memory bandwidth is major.

    Quote Originally Posted by Pob255 View Post
    ps it's a gtx260 or a gts250
    Where is the "pedant" button, I can only find one that say's thanks

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    Not a good person scaryjim's Avatar
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    Re: 4650 64 bit bus

    My Win XP 32bit with 4GB RAM and a 768MB 8800GTX showed ~ 3.2GB available physical memory.

    Aria have an XFX 4650 which claims to be 128bit on super special at the minute: £35.24. Pretty bargainous if the specs are right (although it *is* an XFX, of course... ).

    Otherwise, 128bit 4650s seem to be ~ £55 (except this one from Novatech @ £50, but it's got a double slot cooler...) - frankly you might as well go for a 4670 at that point: Passively cooled Sapphire version £59 @ ebuyer
    Actively cooled ASUS version £56 @ scan



    Oh, and a p.s. to the pedants - I did indeed mean smaller capacity, and was very specifically referring to the ASUS low profile 4650: the 512MB version is identical to the 1GB version except with half the memory chips pulled off! Halfing the bandwidth as well as the frame buffer seems a little extreme to me: it's barely a 4650 once you do that. ATI should ban companies from selling graphics cards that far out of spec: should've been called a 4630 or something (and don't get me started on XFX's DDR2 4670 )...

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    root Member DanceswithUnix's Avatar
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    Re: 4650 64 bit bus

    Quote Originally Posted by scaryjim View Post
    My Win XP 32bit with 4GB RAM and a 768MB 8800GTX showed ~ 3.2GB available physical memory.

    Aria have an XFX 4650 which claims to be 128bit on super special at the minute: £35.24. Pretty bargainous if the specs are right (although it *is* an XFX, of course... ).

    Otherwise, 128bit 4650s seem to be ~ £55 (except this one from Novatech @ £50, but it's got a double slot cooler...) - frankly you might as well go for a 4670 at that point: Passively cooled Sapphire version £59 @ ebuyer
    Actively cooled ASUS version £56 @ scan



    Oh, and a p.s. to the pedants - I did indeed mean smaller capacity, and was very specifically referring to the ASUS low profile 4650: the 512MB version is identical to the 1GB version except with half the memory chips pulled off! Halfing the bandwidth as well as the frame buffer seems a little extreme to me: it's barely a 4650 once you do that. ATI should ban companies from selling graphics cards that far out of spec: should've been called a 4630 or something (and don't get me started on XFX's DDR2 4670 )...
    Cheers, so a 768MB video machine shows the same amount of ram as my machine did in XP with the 512MB 8800. The Wife's machine with 512MB 4670 shows 3.50GB. Son's PC is showing 3.00GB out of 4GB when using IGP. Not much of a pattern emerging apart from "somewhere around 3GB".

    Frankly I am tempted by the 1GB Asus, looks like it won't make his available ram worse than it is right now. Quite cheap and free delivery.

    http://www.ebuyer.com/product/182103

    edit to add: that fan looks a bit buzzy though.

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    Re: 4650 64 bit bus

    Don't fancy the bargainous XFX from Aria then? Even with delivery it's only £40, although I guess that means the ASUS is only a few quid more for double the frame buffer. It's certainly a decent card: with the 5 series being that much more expensive it's pretty much the best card you can get for the price now...

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    Re: 4650 64 bit bus

    Quote Originally Posted by scaryjim View Post
    Don't fancy the bargainous XFX from Aria then? Even with delivery it's only £40, although I guess that means the ASUS is only a few quid more for double the frame buffer. It's certainly a decent card: with the 5 series being that much more expensive it's pretty much the best card you can get for the price now...
    And Aria have a 1GB XFX card for the same price, but not overclocked like the 512MB one you linked.
    The Aria ones are tempting, but then they are XFX. My overclocked 7900GT from Gainward failed, not sure I want one from XFX!

    But then that fan on the Asus card looks buzzy and annoying when the destination is a full tower case so the fan can be as big as possible.

    Perhaps I just need to stop being a tightwad and spend more

    Mailed Charlie Demerijan to ask what AMD think about these crippled products. Perhaps nothing will happen from it, seemed worth a quick email though and if anyone can stir up a response he can.

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    Re: 4650 64 bit bus

    Quote Originally Posted by DanceswithUnix View Post
    Perhaps I just need to stop being a tightwad and spend more
    In which case get the 4670 Ultimate from Sapphire - no fan noise to worry about

    In fact, if this is for gaming, I'd seriously consider a 4670 in preference - the 4650 is hugely bottlenecked by it's low memory bandwidth. Check out http://www.hexus.net/content/item.ph...12&search=4650 - it's the overclocking page from a 4650 DDR3 review. Pushing the core from 600 - 635 and the memory from 1400 - 1600 yielded a ~ 15% boost in performance. Imagine how poor the performance would be with 800MHz memory instead...

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    Re: 4650 64 bit bus

    Just a quick question to everyone here

    With the execption of the XFX shenanigans shown above is there anything else wrong with buying from them, I just get the feeling that they are not liked very much on these forums

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