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Graphics Card Warranties (UK Only) - Let's see how good they really are *Look*
Best company to buy graphics cards, or any other type of item if warranty is your main concern is http://www.amazon.co.uk/
Here is what happens if you need to do an RMA with Amazon.
- Just go on "Help" then "Need More Help?" Click on "Contact Us". Select an issue: "Other order issues." Select issue details: "Something else."
- You then have the option of E-mail / Phone / Chat.
- They give you instructions on how to send back the old one.
- If they no longer stock it, they will give you a full refund regardless of how much warranty is left! It doesn't matter who the manufacturer is.
How good is that? This is how all retailers should be for RMA, no farting about waiting weeks, or a month+ for an RMA to be sorted out.
Use table below as a reference guide, if you use any other retailer to purchase your graphics card's.
http://i.imgur.com/dIECIJJ.png
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Re: Graphics Card Warranty's - Let's see how good they really are *Look*
You're awesome!
This is the kind of info that a lot of people would like to know but it would take far too long to find out!
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Re: Graphics Card Warranty's - Let's see how good they really are *Look*
Or just buy from a UK shop and take advantage of our superior consumer rights, avoiding such a need for manufacturer warranties.
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Re: Graphics Card Warranty's - Let's see how good they really are *Look*
I wouldn't go that far. I'd far rather deal with Logitech's warranty dept than argue the toss with some shop who insists on denying all consumer rights.
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Re: Graphics Card Warranty's - Let's see how good they really are *Look*
Quote:
Originally Posted by kalniel
Or just buy from a UK shop and take advantage of our superior consumer rights, avoiding such a need for manufacturer warranties.
Sounds good, so what our are superior consumer rights, that avoid the need for manufacturer warranties?
Nearly all retailers after 1 year will shove you onto the manufacturer anyway, right or wrong.
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Re: Graphics Card Warranty's - Let's see how good they really are *Look*
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Nelly.
Sounds good, so what our are superior consumer rights, that avoid the need for manufacturer warranties?
We are covered by the Sales of Goods act which states that we can expect our goods to be fit for purpose, that is: as described, of sufficient quality, durability and free from defects. If it is reasonably expected that a graphics card should be sufficiently durable to continue working beyond the period of a manufacturers warranty (which in most of the cases, it is) then we are protected above and beyond said warranty, and directly with the retailer, for up to six years. However the two are not mutually exclusive, so if you prefer the terms of the manufacturers warranty (which is effectively a service you are buying together with the product) then you are free to use it.
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Re: Graphics Card Warranty's - Let's see how good they really are *Look*
damn I got a sapphire card; hopefully it won't die on me :P
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Re: Graphics Card Warranty's - Let's see how good they really are *Look*
How about one for PSU`s and RAM
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Re: Graphics Card Warranty's - Let's see how good they really are *Look*
Quote:
Originally Posted by
kalniel
We are covered by the Sales of Goods act which states that we can expect our goods to be fit for purpose, that is: as described, of sufficient quality, durability and free from defects. If it is reasonably expected that a graphics card should be sufficiently durable to continue working beyond the period of a manufacturers warranty (which in most of the cases, it is) then we are protected above and beyond said warranty, and directly with the retailer, for up to six years. However the two are not mutually exclusive, so if you prefer the terms of the manufacturers warranty (which is effectively a service you are buying together with the product) then you are free to use it.
Have to double check however there is a rather major issue with that, if I remember correctly, burden of proof.
If something breaks within the first 6 months then the burden of proof is on the retailer (ie they have to prove that the fault was caused by miss treatment/incorrect usage.)
If it breaks after the first 6 months the burden of proof is down to the purchaser (ie you have to prove that the fault was because flaw in the product, not your handling/use.)
Oh and the total working lift time of something is a vague "reasonable" so your back to the burden of proof again.
@Nelly.
An update to that list
From the XFX website (I've added the bold to highlight.)
Quote:
WARRANTY INFORMATION
XFX warrants that the Product shall conform to and perform in accordance with published technical specifications and the accompanying written materials, and shall be free of defects in materials and workmanship. XFX does not sell its Product directly to the consumer therefore the warranty for XFX Products remains the responsibility of your reseller where you purchased the Product.
This warranty offered by XFX to its Resellers is limited to the repair and/or replacement, at XFXs discretion, of defective or nonconforming Product, and XFX shall not be responsible for the failure of the Product to perform specified functions, or any other non- conformance caused by or attributable to: (a) any misapplication, modification or misuse of the Product; (b) failure of Customer to adhere to any of XFXs specifications or instructions; (c) neglect of, abuse of, or accident to, the Product; or (d) any associated or complementary equipment or software not furnished by XFX.
Should you experience any difficulty obtaining a fair and proper warranty service from any of our Resellers please do not hesitate to contact us via the Support Ticketing System where we will do our best to help you.
LIMITATION OF LIABILITY
EXCEPT AS EXPRESSLY PROVIDED HEREIN, XFX MAKES NO WARRANTY OF ANY KIND, EXPRESSED OR IMPLIED, WITH RESPECT TO ANY EQUIPMENT, PARTS OR SERVICES PROVIDED PURSUANT TO THIS AGREEMENT, INCLUDING BUT NOT LIMITED TO THE IMPLIED WARRANTIES OF MERCHANTABILITY AND FITNESS FOR A PARTICULAR PURPOSE. NEITHER XFX OR ITS DEALER SHALL BE LIABLE FOR ANY OTHER DAMAGES, INCLUDING BUT NOT LIMITED TO DIRECT, INDIRECT, INCIDENTAL, SPECIAL OR CONSEQUENTIAL DAMAGES, WHETHER IN AN ACTION IN CONTRACT OR TORT (INCLUDING NEGLIGENCE AND STRICT LIABILITY), SUCH AS, BUT NOT LIMITED TO, LOSS OF ANTICIPATED PROFITS OR BENEFITS RESULTING FROM, OR ARISING OUT OF, OR IN CONNECTION WITH THE USE OF FURNISHING OF EQUIPMENT, PARTS OR SERVICES HEREUNDER OR THE PERFORMANCE, USE OR INABILITY TO USE THE SAME, EVEN IF XFX OR ITS DEALER HAS BEEN ADVISED OF THE POSSIBILITY OF SUCH DAMAGES. IN NO EVENT WILL XFX OR ITS DEALERS TOTAL LIABILITY EXCEED THE PRICE PAID FOR THE PRODUCT.
XFX do not give ANY retail customer warranty, they deal with the retailers ONLY and leave it up to said retailers to pass the warranty on.
This bit of confusion can cause a lot of the problems in communication, both with customers trying to contact xfx about a warranty claim and retailers who don't understand the situation/foist it off on the manufacture.
Infact you'll find most of these manufacture warranties are the same, generally it's only warranties you have to register with the manufacture that you should be dealing with the manufacture not the retailer.
Buying something is very much like having a contract, you bought it from the retailer so the contract is between you and the retailer not the manufacture, if the warranty is registered with the manufacture then that is a separate contract between you and the manufacture.
The first Moral of this story, only buy an XFX product from a retailer you trust.
The second Moral of this story, if you want to deal with the manufacture, then actually READ the terms and conditions don't just tick the box and register the product with them, if their terms & conditions and warranty covers the things you want, if they don't then buy a brand that does.
ps The EVGA 10 year warranty also needs to be registered with evga.
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Re: Graphics Card Warranty's - Let's see how good they really are *Look*
Some good info there.
What you will normally see is the retailers sending off the graphics cards to the manufacturer for repair/replacement, that's when the horror storys start, if you don't receive the item back within 28 days most retailers will either:
- Give you a credit for it's current value.
- Send you an equivelant product out of their own stock.
You are more than likely going to need the Sales of Goods Act if you don't use the top 6 manufacturers in the list I created, and most likely having to pursue through no claims court, of course this also depends on the retailer in question some are better than others.
You just have to look at Scans forum threads on Hexus in regards to XFX graphics cards as well as others to see the hassle it is in recieving a replacement card or equivelant.
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Re: Graphics Card Warranty's - Let's see how good they really are *Look*
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Pob255
Have to double check however there is a rather major issue with that, if I remember correctly, burden of proof.
If something breaks within the first 6 months then the burden of proof is on the retailer (ie they have to prove that the fault was caused by miss treatment/incorrect usage.)
If it breaks after the first 6 months the burden of proof is down to the purchaser (ie you have to prove that the fault was because flaw in the product, not your handling/use.)
It's not that hard to prove - you can show absence of external trauma and multimeter readings to show you are not feeding damaging voltages to the components etc. Still some work though, agreed.
Quote:
Oh and the total working lift time of something is a vague "reasonable" so your back to the burden of proof again.
That one's rather simpler - is a graphics card considered to be a consumable?
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Re: Graphics Card Warranty's - Let's see how good they really are *Look*
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Kumagoro
How about one for PSU`s and RAM
For PSU's I would like to see a list like this, as for ram though, in the two decades plus I have been tinkering with computers I have only had 2 sticks of ram fail, a very old EDO stick that died one day after working perfectly, and a stick of RDRAM that plain never worked.
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Re: Graphics Card Warranty's - Let's see how good they really are *Look*
Quote:
Originally Posted by
kalniel
It's not that hard to prove - you can show absence of external trauma and multimeter readings to show you are not feeding damaging voltages to the components etc. Still some work though, agreed.
It's far more than that, a retailer could still be within their rights to refuse you.
"burden of proof" means proof that will hold up in a court of law, which is turn mean you'll need testing by a qualified/certified person, not just some-guy-with-a-multi-meter.
Quote:
That one's rather simpler - is a graphics card considered to be a consumable?
Not at all, again it's down to "burden of proof" that will hold up in a court of law, again this is going to be up to the court to decide based on what evidence both parties can give to support their case and what the "life" of a graphics card should be.
Most electronics components are rated in operational hours, so something that's run 24/7 will have a far shorter life than something that's only run 3 hours a day.
So again it's down to you to "prove" you've not been exposing the item to excessive ware&tare or misuse.
For a retailer to prove that you've killed your card because you where overclocking it is near impossible to do, but the reverse is also true and it's near impossible for you to prove that you didn't overclock it.
Now granted most places, will except your word for it that it's not been abused, it's not worth them getting into a legal battle over it, conversely it's generally not worth it for you to get into a legal battle over it ether.
Retailers rely on manufacture warranties as well, faulty cards returned to them within the first 6 month period, will normally be replaced by existing stock to you, then the retailer will contact the manufacture and claim a warranty request with them for a new card. (at least from a good retailer)
After the first 6 month period it gets more tricky.
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Re: Graphics Card Warranty's - Let's see how good they really are *Look*
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Pob255
Most electronics components are rated in operational hours, so something that's run 24/7 will have a far shorter life than something that's only run 3 hours a day.
Show me the operational hours rating on any shop advert for a graphics card.
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Re: Graphics Card Warranty's - Let's see how good they really are *Look*
Quote:
Originally Posted by
kalniel
Or just buy from a UK shop and take advantage of our superior consumer rights, avoiding such a need for manufacturer warranties.
Consumer rights aren't, as has been said, necessarily superior. There are several hurdles to be jumped over, and one that hasn't been mentioned is that if a repair or replacement is disproportionately expensive, you'll get a refund and very likely. one with a deduction made for the use you've already had from the product. If it's three years into a four year expected "reasonable" life, you'll get 25% back.
But Pob is right, after 6 months the burden of proof is on the consumer, and it's a fairly respectable burden, at that. It is very likely that a report from an independent engineer will cost a fair bit more than any refund you may get, and if you lose the case (and you don't know what the report will say until it's received, and it may not support your case) then you can be quite a long way out of pocket. It is, therefore, a gamble to rely on consumer rights if there's a better route, and a good warranty may very well often be a better route.
The ideal situation, of course, is to have both and rely on whichever seems the best bet, if it comes to the point where you need it. So in that context, if there's a choice of two identically performing and priced cards, go for the one with the stronger manufacturer warranty. It can't hurt and it may well be very beneficial.
Oh, and if you rely on consumer rights and the shop doesn't accept your view, and it ends up going to court to enforce your rights, how long do you think that will take? And what are you going to do for a graphics card during those months?
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Re: Graphics Card Warranty's - Let's see how good they really are *Look*
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Saracen
Consumer rights aren't, as has been said, necessarily superior.
To what? I wasn't meaning to the warranty, I mean compared to many other countries.
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Re: Graphics Card Warranty's - Let's see how good they really are *Look*
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Nelly.
... most likely having to pursue through no claims court...
That doesn't sound like a very good court :D
Seriously, though, very useful chart!
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Re: Graphics Card Warranty's - Let's see how good they really are *Look*
Quote:
Originally Posted by
kalniel
To what? I wasn't meaning to the warranty, I mean compared to many other countries.
Really? You compared it to the warranty ....
Quote:
Or just buy from a UK shop and take advantage of our superior consumer rights, avoiding such a need for manufacturer warranties.
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Re: Graphics Card Warranty's - Let's see how good they really are *Look*
My hole point is that it's about PROOF
Quote:
Originally Posted by
kalniel
Show me the operational hours rating on any shop advert for a graphics card.
not cards, components, ie capacitors, transistors, resistors, coils, etc
heck even the baring of fan/blower on the cpu cooler will have a life span rated in hours.
These are the parts which have documented working life cycles, all measured in working hours, AFAIK the card it self doesn't.
So you could take the component with the lowest rated life span as a minimum possible life span for the card, however that's measured in hours in a known environment.
So you will need to PROVE that your use of the card has not been at fault, that the card is at fault and that it's lifespan was not "reasonable"
Heck, let's face it electronics are almost a consumable product these days, with the rate of the upgrade cycle.
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Re: Graphics Card Warranty's - Let's see how good they really are *Look*
Quote:
Originally Posted by
kalniel
Or just buy from a UK shop and take advantage of our superior consumer rights, avoiding such a need for manufacturer warranties.
From personal experience I'd rather just deal with a problem through warranty than have a disagreement about my consumer rights. Even if that means I end up paying postage when I shouldn't have to.
This comes from someone that has successfully won compensation from a car dealer through court once and is in the process of pursuing another for a refund on a car that intermittently loses its ability to idle from a dealer that is insistent on me having to put up with repair attempts at my own inconveninece till the cows come home.
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Re: Graphics Card Warranty's - Let's see how good they really are *Look*
Where did you get your info that Gigabyte cards have 3-year warranties? I couldn't find anything on their website about it, and some of the sellers I found were advertising only a 2-year warranty.
Edit: I e-mailed Gigabyte to enquire and they replied with this: "Warranty is 3yrs taken from Serial number not purchase date."
So... how will I know how long my card's warranty would be? Would I need to buy the card before I could find out how long its warranty period is? :s
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Re: Graphics Card Warranty's - Let's see how good they really are *Look*
I suspect the answer there is yes.
Very few suppliers would make the effort to find out the serial number before selling it to you. It's probably why the sellers mention a 2-year warranty, because they know that all of their cards are less than a year old so there will be at least 2 years left on the warranty. If there isn't, you should be able to complain.
In short: just treat it as a 2 year warranty and you should be fine.
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Re: Graphics Card Warranty's - Let's see how good they really are *Look*
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Saracen
Really? You compared it to the warranty ....
Er, no I didn't, and it doesn't say that anywhere in the quote you used either :/ The fact that we have superior customer rights (compared to other countries) *results* in the lack of *such* a need for manufacturer warranties. That's all I said, no more, no less, please don't try to infer things I didn't say.
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Re: Graphics Card Warranty's - Let's see how good they really are *Look*
Quote:
Originally Posted by
kalniel
Er, no I didn't, and it doesn't say that anywhere in the quote you used either :/ The fact that we have superior customer rights (compared to other countries) *results* in the lack of *such* a need for manufacturer warranties. That's all I said, no more, no less, please don't try to infer things I didn't say.
What was the point in that statement in the first place then?
Someone does research, posting lots of warranty info. Your response certainly implies to everyone else reading it that differing warranties are irrelevant in the UK with our good consumer protection laws. Warranties are far easier to work with than arguing with a retailer about their obligations.
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Re: Graphics Card Warranty's - Let's see how good they really are *Look*
Quote:
Originally Posted by
badass
What was the point in that statement in the first place then?
Someone does research, posting lots of warranty info. Your response certainly implies to everyone else reading it that differing warranties are irrelevant in the UK with our good consumer protection laws. Warranties are far easier to work with than arguing with a retailer about their obligations.
Sorry if my response was hard to understand. I was trying to say that because we have superior consumer protection compared to other countries, there is not *such* a need for choosing products based on their warranties - you could go further and say that retailer choice is now a factor for consideration in this country as well and it would be great to see a table likewise comparing different retailers RMA responses. That doesn't mean to say that there is no need for examining different warranty policies, and at no point was I comparing consumer rights to warranties.
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Re: Graphics Card Warranty's - Let's see how good they really are *Look*
You said we could just buy from a UK shop and avoid the need the such a warranty. Buying from a UK shop does not avoid the need for such a warranty, regardless of whether UK rights are superior to other countries or not, because warranties can, and some do, give rights and coverage UK consumer rights legislation simply does not offer.
The comparison you made is that warranties are not needed because of UK rights. You compared the functionality of UK rights to the functionalities of warranties and sad that it "avoided the need" for such warranties. It does NOT, because it all depends on what the warranty offers. Where a warranty offers broader coverage, they may well be superior to UK rights, and even where they do not, they may well offer a faster resolution of the problem than relying on UK consumer rights.
UK consumer rights certainly are better than many other countries, a point amply illustrated by the codifying EU directive requiring all member states to offer at least certain levels of coverage still falling way short in many respects (though not all) of what we already had here. But that doesn't mean that the existence of those rights "avoids the need" for warranties, and that is the comparison you made, the need for warranties because of consumer rights.
I did not infer things, and as such warranties can offer coverage UK rights do not, you are simply wrong in that it avoids the need. It offers, subject to the specific warranty, options that consumer rights UK legislation does not.
And that it why a comparison of warranties is useful. The problem with it is that it might be a snapshot of warranty coverage right now, but unless kept up to date, it may be misleading to rely on as time goes by. Manufacturers can change their warranty coverage, for better or worse, more or less at will. They obviously cannot out out of consumer law, so legislation provides a base level of cover, and a pretty respectable base level at that. But it's always worth knowing what warranties, whether from manufacturers or even non-mandatory cover from shops is, because it may well be the best route.
An example, outside of computing .... the tailor (both manufacturer and retailer) I get some shirts and stuff from offer a 3-month no-quibble warranty. If you don't like something, return it within three months for replacement or full refund, though excluding outbound delivery charges. That's (obviously) on top of any DSR of SoGA coverage, both of which you still have. And they make the point that it's unconditional. The clothes can be worn or not, damaged or not, have cigar burns in them or not and been chewed by the dog or not. You still get a replacement or full refund, for three months.
And, the thing about such warranties is that manufacturers (or retailers, like Scan) don't have to offer cover above the level of consumer rights, but .... if they do, and the consumer knew of and relied on that warranty, then it's legally enforceable in the courts, if need be.
Clearly, graphics cards aren't shirts, and I've not seen any IT manufacturer offering anything quite that broad. I doubt the numbers would add up if they did. But the exact terms of warranties can still give options consumer law does not. For instance, it may give a two-year replacement (probably of like-for-like, or a more modern equivalent if a direct replacement/repair is not an option). Consumer law may end up being limited to a pro-rata refund with a deduction for the proportion of the "reasonable" life expectancy of the product that you actually had before it failed.
It may well often be the case that consumer law gives you the best, or most suitable protection and is the way to go. That, in my opinion, is very likely to be the case in the first few days (or just possibly in some cases, up to 3 months and 7 days) where the DSRs apply. The DSR coverage is extremely powerful, but of a generally very short duration. After that, and especially after the first 6 months, a warranty may well give protections over and above the coverage given even by the UK's "superior" consumer rights.
You cannot just buy in a UK shop and "avoid the need" for warranty cover, because depending on the situation and the warranty, a warranty may well give you protection the legislation does not.
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Re: Graphics Card Warranty's - Let's see how good they really are *Look*
Quote:
Originally Posted by
kalniel
Sorry if my response was hard to understand. I was trying to say that because we have superior consumer protection compared to other countries, there is not *such* a need for choosing products based on their warranties ...
I still don't agree.
First "such" a need compared to what? Implicit in "such" a need is that it's in comparison to some base line. If the base line is to not having those consumer protections, well, they've been on place since 1979 in the form of the SoGA though even that replaced previous much less rigid rights and has been amended a fair bit since '79. But most people know those rights exist, even if they may well not know (or be wrong about) what they say. And that doesn't refer to you, but even on Hexus, despite going over it again and again and again, we still often either get questions asked or clearly incorrect statements made, much less what the general public think is the case. But if that's the comparison, between warranty with rights versus warranty without rights, then we're clearly better off with rights, but warranties can and often do still give cover rights don't.
If it refers to buying in the UK shop to get our "superior" rights rather than buying abroad and not getting them, well, that's true in as far as consumer rights go, because enforcing them very likely means taking legal action in a foreign court and, over anything of this scale, that's very unlikely to be an economic proposition for most of us. But that makes warranties even more useful, because of the manufacturer operates in the UK, then they can be held to account by UK courts for warranty rights.
All told, it's never the case that you're worse off by having warranty rights over what you have in consumer protection without those warranty rights. The worst that can happen is you're no better off, which is why it's useful to know who offers what, and factor it in to your purchase decision. It may not be what determines what brand you buy .... or it may be. For instance, there's not much point having a replacement warranty on a PSU if getting it replaced means shipping the PSU to the USA at your own cost. It'd probably be cheaper to ditch it and just buy a new one. A UK RMA option, on the other hand, may be what leads me to buy brand A not brand B. Ditto warranty cover.
And, for that matter, so might a retailer's reputation for dealing with problems. I've been buying car hifi from the same shop for, oh, about 35 years, precisely because I got such good customer service way back, and it's been first rate ever since. So now, I get a few prices, have a chat, agree something reasonable and always buy there, even if it's a bit more expensive than the cheapest. Service, to me anyway, is worth paying for.
Information is king, and the more you know, the more informed the buying decision whichever way we opt to go. Warranty details are one such piece of information.
Final example. I bought a new washing machine a few months back. Several makes were in the running, and I ended up selecting from the short-list of machines with suitable features at acceptable prices based on the manufacturer warranty offered, which was a full five years, parts, labour and call-out, free of charge on registration of the machine. We then bought a relative a tumble-dryer from the same manufacturer (Siemens) for exactly the same reason. That particular manufacturer warranty goes way above any consumer rights coverage, albeit the legal rights last a bit longer, in theory at least. Had I not known of that warranty option (and thanks to John Lewis for pointing it out) I could well have opted for something else and, over five years, it quite conceivably could have cost me more for repairs than the machine cost in the first place.
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Re: Graphics Card Warranty's - Let's see how good they really are *Look*
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Saracen
You said we could just buy from a UK shop and avoid the need the such a warranty. Buying from a UK shop does not avoid the need for such a warranty,
..
The comparison you made is that warranties are not needed because of UK rights. You compared the functionality of UK rights to the functionalities of warranties and sad that it "avoided the need" for such warranties.
..
But that doesn't mean that the existence of those rights "avoids the need" for warranties, and that is the comparison you made, the need for warranties because of consumer rights.
..
You cannot just buy in a UK shop and "avoid the need" for warranty cover, because depending on the situation and the warranty, a warranty may well give you protection the legislation does not.
Have chopped quotes simply to highlight something, because I think you've completely misread what I said. I have never said it avoids the need, so please stop quoting as if I did and misrepresenting what I'm saying. I said, and highlighted several times since, that it avoids SUCH a need for them. There is a massive semantic difference.
Compare the two:
1) X avoids such a need for Y
2) X avoids the need for such a Y
I'm saying #1. You're accusing me of saying #2.
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Re: Graphics Card Warranty's - Let's see how good they really are *Look*
i had a steam code missing from my sapphire box, so i had to write about 5 letters to asia to the effect of:
Please send card
Please please card
Please please oh pretty please I want CARD
Please please please sir send me my number please sir
Just give me the number you butt monkey!
about 2 hours of writing and checking web sites, and 2 months of waiting later i got a code!
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Re: Graphics Card Warranty's - Let's see how good they really are *Look*
Quote:
Originally Posted by
kalniel
Have chopped quotes simply to highlight something, because I think you've completely misread what I said. I have never said it avoids the need, so please stop quoting as if I did and misrepresenting what I'm saying. I said, and highlighted several times since, that it avoids SUCH a need for them. There is a massive semantic difference.
Compare the two:
1) X avoids such a need for Y
2) X avoids the need for such a Y
I'm saying #1. You're accusing me of saying #2.
No, I'm not. I even put the "such" in quotes. I'm not misrepresenting you, I'm simply disagreeing with you. That's what the points about a "baseline" were about.
And I am most certainly not "accusing" you of anything, so "don't misrepresent what I said" right back at you. I simply think you're wrong.
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Re: Graphics Card Warranty's - Let's see how good they really are *Look*
thanks. will be very useful when i make a future purchase. im surprised that asus and sapphire are considered to have poor support
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Re: Graphics Card Warranty's - Let's see how good they really are *Look*
Updated the list on the first page with more info on EVGA warranty cover.
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Re: Graphics Card Warranty's - Let's see how good they really are *Look*
Good to see you keeping this active with updates, came in handy when I actually made my purchase.
Good stuff :)
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Re: Graphics Card Warranty's - Let's see how good they really are *Look*
Any news whatsover on Powercolor and their RMA procedure?
Have a HD4850 thats died on me a while back but shop doesn't want to know.
Thanks.
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Re: Graphics Card Warranty's - Let's see how good they really are *Look*
I've used the PNY RMA a couple of times and despite it being overseas for me being in the UK, I've had nothing but joy with it. No hassle, constant email contact and they generally post your return out to you the day they receive your faulty graphics card :-). I'm looking to upgrade and I'll more than likely stick with PNY :-)
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Re: Graphics Card Warranty's - Let's see how good they really are *Look*
I was thinking of getting a asus card but I doubt I will be doing that now that warranty is awful.
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Re: Graphics Card Warranty's - Let's see how good they really are *Look*
Nothing but praise for EVGA here - have used their advanced cross-shipping option a few times (so recieving a new card before the old one is sent back) - I always insist pc's I build for friends etc have evga cards in IF theyre going with the green team :)
PLUS theyve honoured warranties on really old cards too and given me something better (like my old 8800gts 640, which they replaced with a gtx260).
Best rma experience Ive ever seen on a gpu was from BFG - such a shame theyve gone :(
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Re: Graphics Card Warranty's - Let's see how good they really are *Look*
Very helpful. Cheers for this.
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Re: Graphics Card Warranty's - Let's see how good they really are *Look*
Does removing the heatsink and fan and REAPPLYING the thermal paste with a different make (Arctic MX-5) void your warranty?
Does replacing the heatsink void your warranty also?
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Re: Graphics Card Warranty's - Let's see how good they really are *Look*
Removing the stock heatsink will void warranty for most MFRs, I think there's one that will allow you to do it though.
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Re: Graphics Card Warranty's - Let's see how good they really are *Look*
Quote:
Originally Posted by
mikeo01
Does removing the heatsink and fan and REAPPLYING the thermal paste with a different make (Arctic MX-5) void your warranty?
Does replacing the heatsink void your warranty also?
I've heard before that EVGA permit you to do this, but never heard it being the case with any other manufacturers.
If you do want to do it I'd highly recommend checking the terms of the warranty.
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Re: Graphics Card Warranty's - Let's see how good they really are *Look*
thanks to OP for keeping it updated
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Re: Graphics Card Warranty's - Let's see how good they really are *Look*
Great information - but do you have a bigger version - I'm struggling to read it, and I've zoomed in.
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Just a note on zotac
I had a pair of 580's one of which failed, my retailer has gone busy since I got them and zotac refuse to do anything unless I pay £25 + postage each way for the card. On top of that they quote 3-4 weeks for a replacement once they have payment !
I ordered Evga cards for the 670's this time
Quote:
Originally Posted by
snootyjim
I've heard before that EVGA permit you to do this, but never heard it being the case with any other manufacturers.
If you do want to do it I'd highly recommend checking the terms of the warranty.
Just to confirm yes they do allow repasting if done correctly
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Re: Graphics Card Warranty's - Let's see how good they really are *Look*
Ok forgot to mention that in all the consumer law posts.
EVGA is AFAIK the only company that allows the removal of the cooler without invalidating the warranty.
As long as you've not accidentally damaged the card and it still does not work with the stock cooler reattached.
Some companies stick a warranty void sticker over one of the screws and will refuse to accept a card with a damaged or missing sticker.
Some companies turn a blind eye, they unoffically accept that people will over clock and replace the cooler, so as long as you refit the stock cooler, the card is not damaged and you don't mention that you've removed the stock cooler you're fine.
EVGA is the only company that openly allows it.
and the XFX still needs to be changed from RMA uk base to retailer only
XFX PSU's go via a UK based RMA but their graphics cards are retailer only
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Re: Graphics Card Warranty's - Let's see how good they really are *Look*
5 years on zotac thats good
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Re: Graphics Card Warranty's - Let's see how good they really are *Look*
Quote:
Originally Posted by
mkrupska
5 years on zotac thats good
Yeh if you are willing to pay for it
As mentioned above when my 580's became faulty at under a year old they wanted £25+vat PER card to even look at them!
(ps that is not including the postage either!)
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Re: Graphics Card Warranty's - Let's see how good they really are *Look*
Excellent info.
My old 8800gtx died earlier this year and because my whole pc is getting on a bit I didn't want to have to be buying any more bits in the future to keep it going but I want it to last as long as possible. So I replaced my card with an EVGA one because of their warranty and paid a bit extra to extend it. I think it's important to have a good warranty on a graphics card simply because you are paying so much for them :)
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I am just RMAing my XFX 6850 and I after hearing a lot of bad things about the process I am hoping I get my 3 month old card back ASAP.
Sent it back to the eBay shop that has been real good with me and they are testing the card just now.
Fingers crossed all will be ok.
Might not buy another XFX product in the future.
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Re: Graphics Card Warranty's - Let's see how good they really are *Look*
The list on the original post is now more update. Last update was previously 11 months ago.
http://img833.imageshack.us/img833/9...warrantyso.png
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Re: Graphics Card Warranty's - Let's see how good they really are *Look*
Quote:
Originally Posted by
vrykyl
Best rma experience Ive ever seen on a gpu was from BFG - such a shame theyve gone :(
BFG were fantastic, I had an 6600gt go bang one day, contacted them about it and they sent me a new 7600gt as a replacement without even receiving my old card first (though I did have to give my credit card details)
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Pob255
Some companies stick a warranty void sticker over one of the screws and will refuse to accept a card with a damaged or missing sticker.
Some companies turn a blind eye, they unoffically accept that people will over clock and replace the cooler, so as long as you refit the stock cooler, the card is not damaged and you don't mention that you've removed the stock cooler you're fine.
EVGA is the only company that openly allows it.
and the XFX still needs to be changed from RMA uk base to retailer only
XFX PSU's go via a UK based RMA but their graphics cards are retailer only
I wonder if XFX would mind if I removed the horridly loud cooler from my new 7850 core edition, it isn't the one pictured in reviews with heatpipes ect.. but a cheap extruded bit of aluminium with a fan that has an annoying whine after a while of gaming, though temps at 60c are ok I guess.
They have stuck the void if removed stickers on the screws as well :(
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Re: Graphics Card Warranty\'s - Let\'s see how good they really are *Look*
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Golden Dragoon
I wonder if XFX would mind if I removed the horridly loud cooler from my new 7850 core edition, it isn't the one pictured in reviews with heatpipes ect.. but a cheap extruded bit of aluminium with a fan that has an annoying whine after a while of gaming, though temps at 60c are ok I guess.
They have stuck the void if removed stickers on the screws as well :(
Don't expect too much from XFX, ****ty company overall.
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Re: Graphics Card Warranty's - Let's see how good they really are *Look*
Really useful thread! I'll be able to narrow down the selection of cards I am after according to this, cheers :)
Gigabyte/ EVGA/ Zotac purely down to the warranty period and time to resolution.
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Re: Graphics Card Warranty's - Let's see how good they really are *Look*
Thanks for this! Glad I went EVGA now...
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Re: Graphics Card Warranty's - Let's see how good they really are *Look*
Here in the US, I had one of the 2 fans go out on a EVGA card and it was 30 days out of waranty. They said they had no provisions for fixing or replacing a fan. I replaced it with a MSI brand and also had one of the fans go out on it. It took about 2 weeks total time to send and get it back, but they did fix it.
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Re: Graphics Card Warranty's - Let's see how good they really are *Look*
I never really consider this but looking at the differences I really should.
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Re: Graphics Card Warranty's - Let's see how good they really are *Look*
Useful thread, any information on VTX3D warranties?
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Re: Graphics Card Warranty's - Let's see how good they really are *Look*
Cheers for the information, hope it's still up to date. Looking at what warranty a company offers seems like good way to judge the build quality of the product
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Re: Graphics Card Warranty's - Let's see how good they really are *Look*
Thanks for taking the time to compile the info in the OP. (can't find "thank" button?)
It would be great if it could have info added with regards to warranty voiding when removing stock coolers to replace with aftermarket or water-blocks. Although it is pretty difficult to find this info, I'm about to shoot emails to all the listed manufacturers support to see if they are willing to cooperate and will update this post.
Update:
I have been receiving replies today from various aib's.
Palit first to respond: Please kindly be notified that removing or changing the original fan from Palit graphic card will void its manufacturer warranty.
Actually all the fan designs on Palit graphic card are qualified to deal with the thermal part and meet Nvidia’s thermal SPEC.
Please consider more before you take this movement.
EVGA next: Changing the cooling unit will not void warranty, if no physical damage occurs, the warranty sticker on the back is not removed and te original cooler and the screws are kept, because EVGA only accepts the cards in original condition when sent in for a RMA. Have a nice day.
POV: Yes, if you replace the cooler you don’t have warranty anymore.
KFA2: Third party coolers would void the warranty, as its standard with
us... But if there is fault and you return the card with the original cooler
on there....
Zotac: Yes it will void your warranty.
Sapphire: Yes it does void the warranty.
PowerColor: Please attention, if you change the default FAN that it will make your card out of warranty. So if you decide to change the FAN, you need afford out of warranty responsibility.
ASUS: Some brand-new VGA Cards have a ( warranty ) sticker at one of the screws of the cooler. Customer can exchange cooler as long as the cooler is not responsible for a damage, the card was not damaged during exchange and for RMA the origin cooler must be on card.
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Re: Graphics Card Warranty's - Let's see how good they really are *Look*
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Re: Graphics Card Warranty's - Let's see how good they really are *Look*
Some great info here thanks! I'm currently RMAing my ASUS motherboard at the moment with eBuyer I didn't qualify for the collection of it apparently. I miss my PC :(
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Re: Graphics Card Warranty's - Let's see how good they really are *Look*
Really useful thanks, I was wondering whether to get an MSI or a GB card but this has sorted that out, GB!
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Re: Graphics Card Warranty's - Let's see how good they really are *Look*
Best company to buy graphics cards from if warranty is your main concern is Amazon, infact any type of item!
Here is what happens if you need to do an RMA.
- Just go on "Contact Amazon". Select the product you want to discuss. Select phone me.
- They call you and despatch a new item immediately.
- They give you instructions on how to send back the old one. Simples.
If they no longer stock it, they will give you a full refund regardless of how much warranty is left! It doesn't matter who the manufacturer is.
How good is that? This is how all retailers should be for RMA, no farting about waiting weeks, or a month+ for an RMA to be sorted out.
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Re: Graphics Card Warranty's - Let's see how good they really are *Look*
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Re: Graphics Card Warranty's - Let's see how good they really are *Look*
It will need constant TLC :D
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Re: Graphics Card Warranty's - Let's see how good they really are *Look*
See first page for updated list.
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Re: Graphics Card Warranties - Let's see how good they really are *Look*
So does anyone actually buy standard cards? I'm assuming that they only offer a year warranty. My last card lasted a year and half, which seems average. It's abit like playing GPU russian roulette! You know it's going to fail at some point, it's just a matter of trying to predict when, and covering yourself. MSI did repair it, although the company that sold it, just tried to sell me a new one. What are the trading warranty laws in the UK? Like alot of people the EVGA warranty, and whole approach, tempted me to invest in a new GTX780(and £20 for five year warranty). What is it that actually fails, or can it be any number of possibilities?
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Re: Graphics Card Warranties - Let's see how good they really are *Look*
How about one for PSU`s and RAM?
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Re: Graphics Card Warranties - Let's see how good they really are *Look*
This is fantastic, my current gpu is sapphire and that's well down the list! I'll definitely be checking out Giga and Msi in regards to this list. I never saw one before (rma list etc) A psu one aswell would be really good too :p I usually try to buy aftermarket ones, mainly for cleaning dust from the heatsink (i remember some being not able to get to at all) and really made me look at them before i purchased.
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Re: Graphics Card Warranties - Let's see how good they really are *Look*
Sorry for the double post, i really wanted to ask though if you order through Amazon if the product became defective during the warranty period (Say 3 years) if after a year etc... would you deal with Amazon, or have to go through the manufacturer? (been staring at google pages with rma returns for manufacturers :crazy:)
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Re: Graphics Card Warranties - Let's see how good they really are *Look*
Quote:
Originally Posted by
drone567
So does anyone actually buy standard cards? I'm assuming that they only offer a year warranty. My last card lasted a year and half, which seems average. It's abit like playing GPU russian roulette! You know it's going to fail at some point, it's just a matter of trying to predict when, and covering yourself. MSI did repair it, although the company that sold it, just tried to sell me a new one. What are the trading warranty laws in the UK? Like alot of people the EVGA warranty, and whole approach, tempted me to invest in a new GTX780(and £20 for five year warranty). What is it that actually fails, or can it be any number of possibilities?
This is the reason it is important to buy through a reputable retailer/e-tailer. I have a friend that had a warranty issue with his MSI GTX580 about during the last six months of his warranty, he contacted the seller and they arranged the RMA for him, all he had to do was print a label, pack the card and take it to the post office. His replacement (a factory refurbished card) arrived in less than a week, it was easy enough.
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Re: Graphics Card Warranties - Let's see how good they really are *Look*
Is there a UK RMA Base for EVGA graphics cards
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Re: Graphics Card Warranties - Let's see how good they really are *Look*
Anyone has experience with Amazon after 12 months? From what I read, they only take care of your card for 12 months and after that you will have to deal with manufacturers which sometimes are out of reach and may cost an arm and a leg to RMA. If that is true Amazon is only the best retailer for the first year of warranty :/
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Re: Graphics Card Warranties - Let's see how good they really are *Look*
Quote:
Originally Posted by
leonc
Anyone has experience with Amazon after 12 months? From what I read, they only take care of your card for 12 months and after that you will have to deal with manufacturers which sometimes are out of reach and may cost an arm and a leg to RMA. If that is true Amazon is only the best retailer for the first year of warranty :/
I had, it wasn't gpu, but it was another electronic item, on buying page item had warranty listed as 2 years I think. I contacted amazon and was told that 2 years warranty is extended warranty offered by manufacturer.
It might be different for gpus or other items, but that what I was told. Amazon support was very nice and luckily so was manufacturer and everything was easily sorted out.
Best way to insure is probably buy a brand with good rma on amazon.
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Re: Graphics Card Warranty's - Let's see how good they really are *Look*
So far i have only dealt with gigabyte and i must say they are pretty good.
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Re: Graphics Card Warranties - Let's see how good they really are *Look*
Im glad I didnt end up getting the Palit or Gainward 970s I was originally planning. I've only had MSI / Gigabyte / KFA2 cards for a long time now.
I went with KFA2 (now Galax) a while ago after reading these tables, but had to RMA two 670s that died within 3 months (I guess it was a faulty batch). However I got to try out their manufacturer RMA, and they replaced each one very quickly, and even replaced the second with a reference 680 instead which was great.
But then I sold that 680 because I dont like reference coolers and got MSI ones instead when they went on sale, and now Gigayte 970s.
Also Asus only do RMA through the Etailer now, I found out back when an old PSU died and I thought it was the mobo, I tried contacting Asus support and they said they handle their RMAs through the Etailer only. So for that reason I bought my Asus ROG Swift from OCUK because I've found their aftersale support to be the best. But with Gigayte / Galax / MSI / EVGA, its ok to order from anywhere.
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Re: Graphics Card Warranties - Let's see how good they really are *Look*
Wow this is an amazing and informative post. So glad I have a Gigabyte card ^^
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Re: Graphics Card Warranty's - Let's see how good they really are *Look*
Quote:
Originally Posted by
MrTwoChins
Im just trying to do 20 posts
Please read the forum rules
Note that we're a friendly forum, but we have a few basic "rules" that need to be adhered to, as a basic guide, here's some of them:
- SPAM will not be tolerated, at all, report it using the report button.
- Posts in the welcome forum don't count towards your total post count.
Spamming the Forum is not nice.
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Re: Graphics Card Warranty's - Let's see how good they really are *Look*
Looking at this I think I will try to stick to Gigabyte in future.
Ive found Asus slow in the past and MSI have refused me any help and just told me to go back to my retailer. I thought they might have just supplied me a new fan for diy fitting to save a whole replacement card and I had read of people in the US getting this service.
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Re: Graphics Card Warranty's - Let's see how good they really are *Look*
Just wanted to chime in with a great experience I had with Powercolor (TUL Corp):
I switched out a 2500k for a 3570k to make use of PCI-E v3 for crossfire R9 290's. When re-fitting the particularly massive CPU heatsink, I accidentally damaged a tiny (~1.5mm x ~.75mm) component on the rear of the top GPU PCB.
I figured the card was dead or if not already; running it with that smashed off would certainly lead to it's demise, so I had to find some way of fixing it. Trouble with something that small is I would not be able to do it by hand, so I started looking at U.K based PCB repair companies.
I fired off a few emails and while I was at it thought I would give Powercolor support a try. They got back to me first and to my amazement offered to repair the card for free, (as the card suffered accidental damage by myself it could not go for replacement to their E.U based RMA center). Shipping to and from Taiwan would be at my expense obviously but I decided to accept this fantastic offer.
Polar at Powercolor put me in contact with Rina at TUL and we proceeded to arrange the RMA. Took a few weeks from end to end and cost over £100 total in shipping but still cheaper than buying even a second hard card.:rockon2:
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Re: Graphics Card Warranties - Let's see how good they really are *Look*
The ASUS one does not surprise me, but the Sapphire one did..
Guess it's wise to buy motherboards and GPUs from EVGA and Gigabyte then.
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Re: Graphics Card Warranties - Let's see how good they really are *Look*
ASUS's RMA has been notoriously sub-par but they've started offering resellers credits on faulty motherboards. I got a full refund no questions asked from dabs on a 3 year old MB with a dying VRM thanks to this new policy. So maybe they'll extend the policy to include graphics cards as well, or perhaps it already does? Anyone had experience RMAing an ASUS card recently?
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Re: Graphics Card Warranties - Let's see how good they really are *Look*
Gigabyte - I RMA'd my 7950 via scan about a year ago, it took over a month and the fault wasn't fixed. Along the way I emailed GB, and they told me that the warranty is only via the reseller (reseller can send cards to GB for repair, I suppose). Same goes for Sapphire, at least for the UK, they offer 0 warranty.
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Re: Graphics Card Warranties - Let's see how good they really are *Look*
Zotac seems to have the best out of the box term. Still not sure I'd go with them yet though.
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Re: Graphics Card Warranties - Let's see how good they really are *Look*
I can vouch for Gigabyte RMA as they replaced my old 570 back in the day with no hesitation. It took about 15 working days but I was living in South-Afica at the time
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Re: Graphics Card Warranties - Let's see how good they really are *Look*
Quote:
Originally Posted by
rallfo
ASUS's RMA has been notoriously sub-par but they've started offering resellers credits on faulty motherboards. I got a full refund no questions asked from dabs on a 3 year old MB with a dying VRM thanks to this new policy. So maybe they'll extend the policy to include graphics cards as well, or perhaps it already does? Anyone had experience RMAing an ASUS card recently?
I got a full refund from dabs after 2.8 years when my 670 OC2 died, it had like 2 weeks of warranty left. Was surprised as I had a bad experience with them when I tried to send back a mobo (directly to Asus, although this was 2008/9).
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Re: Graphics Card Warranties - Let's see how good they really are *Look*
Might have to go with Amazon for my next GPU purchase. Didn't realize the process was so simple in the long run! Good to see EVGA near the top of the table.
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Re: Graphics Card Warranties - Let's see how good they really are *Look*
Asus are about the worst even though I love there product. In the middle one with Amazon they are so easy to deal with and I did the live chat at 23h30 in the evening
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Re: Graphics Card Warranties - Let's see how good they really are *Look*
EVGA will soon have a UK service centre according to the reps we have over at OCUK. If I remember right it starts around 1st December 2015.
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Re: Graphics Card Warranties - Let's see how good they really are *Look*
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Huyor
Might have to go with Amazon for my next GPU purchase. Didn't realize the process was so simple in the long run! Good to see EVGA near the top of the table.
Well, they were 4 1/2 years ago when the thread was started....
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Re: Graphics Card Warranties - Let's see how good they really are *Look*
Asus really do have the worst, that I have experienced.
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Re: Graphics Card Warranties - Let's see how good they really are *Look*
Wow I was thinking about ordering a Palit 980Ti. Forget that.
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Re: Graphics Card Warranties - Let's see how good they really are *Look*
Updated the front page to reflect the announcement of EVGA's official press release on the new EVGA UK RMA centre. Everything else hasn't changed.
Quote:
Originally Posted by EVGA | Posted 26th November 2015
EVGA Introduces Customer Service Centre in United Kingdom
26th November 2015 – EVGA is proud to introduce a new service centre in United Kingdom to directly support local customers with a convenient United Kingdom shipping address. This new service centre will make it even easier for local customers to get support on their EVGA product with reduced shipping times, reduced rates and a local phone number for support.
"The UK is an extremely important market for EVGA and with our continued growth in the region, this is a way of saying thank you to all those customers who have supported EVGA to date", explains Marnie Sutton, Chief Operating Officer for EVGA Europe. "We pride ourselves as having the best support package in the business and don't want our customers to spend their hard earned cash on overseas calls and high shipping costs for returns or step-up deals".
This along with 24/7 EVGA Support, extended warranty services and the award winning EVGA Step-Up Program make it easy to see why EVGA support is considered among the best in the industry. EVGA customers located in United Kingdom can call 01788 247 298 for direct support from today onwards."
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Re: Graphics Card Warranties - Let's see how good they really are *Look*
Useful thread. I am glad I purchased an EVGA card now. Also that I purchased from Amazon.
I can verify that returns direct to Amazon are very easy. I was able to get a refund for a used iPhone immediately even before I sent it back. Also easy to take any packages to collection points.
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Re: Graphics Card Warranties - Let's see how good they really are *Look*
I know this is an old thread but I just wanted to say thank you for it.
I was having serious doubts about purchasing a fairly hefty PC build from UK suppliers, including 2 x 1080 Nvidia cards but after coming across this thread and actually testing out a return of a faulty power supply on an item I was having an issue with, which I bought from Amazon last year - they were absolutely fantastic to deal with, offered options of replacement of everything or full refund, including free shipping back to them of my faulty item.
I'm going to purchase the whole PC build through Amazon now.
You other retailers need to learn an awful lot about customer service and in particular replacements under warranty, if all I'm left with as an option is to send it back to you, then you return it to manufacturer for repair and I gotta wait a month or worse, really, what was the point at all in purchasing from you in the first place.
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Re: Graphics Card Warranties - Let's see how good they really are *Look*
Quote:
Originally Posted by
nacasatu
I know this is an old thread but I just wanted to say thank you for it.
I was having serious doubts about purchasing a fairly hefty PC build from UK suppliers, including 2 x 1080 Nvidia cards but after coming across this thread and actually testing out a return of a faulty power supply on an item I was having an issue with, which I bought from Amazon last year - they were absolutely fantastic to deal with, offered options of replacement of everything or full refund, including free shipping back to them of my faulty item.
I'm going to purchase the whole PC build through Amazon now.
You other retailers need to learn an awful lot about customer service and in particular replacements under warranty, if all I'm left with as an option is to send it back to you, then you return it to manufacturer for repair and I gotta wait a month or worse, really, what was the point at all in purchasing from you in the first place.
Amazon is great, only thing is that graphics cards I find they don't have a great range, and they don't offer any PC hardware specific services like extra warranty, as far as I can tell.
But generally yeah, their after-sale support is fab, their CS is top notch. I work in a customer service centre for a large company and I hold Amazon in an extraordinarily high regard.
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Re: Graphics Card Warranties - Let's see how good they really are *Look*
EVGA have always had the best reputation as far as I can tell, between their support and the step up program I would gladly wait for their 1080s to be widely available rather than ship an Asus card to another country.
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Re: Graphics Card Warranties - Let's see how good they really are *Look*
Mind If i use your chart? I'll link put a link to this post aswell and give you credit
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Re: Graphics Card Warranties - Let's see how good they really are *Look*
Really pleased to see this still being updated, a big thank you to OP.
Secondly, EVGA now has a UK RMA base? Excellent news.
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Re: Graphics Card Warranties - Let's see how good they really are *Look*
Updated the front page.
- Zotac RMA's are no longer processed in the UK, they are sent to Hong Kong, so dropped it from the Green section and moved it to Red.
- Also updated all the web links for the brands as a few were out of date.
If any of the information is incorrect, or you have new info from a recent RMA, then please let me know in this thread and I'll update the list again. :)