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Thread: GPU Testing/Reviewing techniques and Runt Frames with Crossfire

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    GPU Testing/Reviewing techniques and Runt Frames with Crossfire

    Has anyone else read much into some of the new techniques being implimented by a few review sites.

    In a nutshell, instead of using the raw FPS figures given to them by software like FRAPS, they use a DVI capture card and record the actual output which is delivered to the gamer. This is then processed to find things like stutter, tearing and 'runt' frames.

    Runt frames are basically frames which are processed, but only a very small sliver of them are actually delivered to the screen creating framerate in FRAPS which appears higher than is actually perceivable to the user.

    PC Perspective have some pretty good pages worth reading on the subject:
    Part 1 - Explanation

    Part 2 - Stutter and Tearing analysis

    PC Perspective also opted not to include the crossfire results in their GTX Titan test because their results so far have shown that crossfire basically 'cheats'.

    Curious to know what people at hexus think about this, would be good to have some input from some of the Hexus testing staff aswell.

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    Re: GPU Testing/Reviewing techniques and Runt Frames with Crossfire

    I have a feeling I or another forum member mentioned the earlier article where they talked about using a capture card instead of FRAPs.

    I always thought SLI tended to do somewhat better than Crossfire anyway??

    However,what I would also like is a realworld test,where reviewers also use a blind test,to see if they can tell apart the differences,and also the testing of three or four different parts of the game too,even for the actual benchmarks.

    If you look at one of the earlier Techreport reviews,for example,IIRC they changed the scene in one game and it went from Nvidia cards having better latency figures to AMD ones have better latency figures.

    Edit!!





    Having said that,if you do have stuttering issues,there seems to be a utility available:

    http://www.tomshardware.com/reviews/...2,3329-11.html

    Its called Radeon Pro.

    I do think AMD should take onboard that chaps work though.
    Last edited by CAT-THE-FIFTH; 24-02-2013 at 12:58 PM.

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    Re: GPU Testing/Reviewing techniques and Runt Frames with Crossfire

    Quote Originally Posted by CAT-THE-FIFTH View Post
    I have a feeling I or another forum member mentioned the earlier article where they talked about using a capture card instead of FRAPs.

    However,what I would also like is a realworld test,where reviewers also use a blind test,to see if they can tell apart the differences,and also the testing of three or four different parts of the game too,even for the actual benchmarks.

    If anything do Hexus Crossfire users report mass issues??

    If you look at one of the earlier Techreport reviews,for example,IIRC they changed the scene in one game and it went from Nvidia cards having better latency figures to AMD ones have better latency figures.

    Edit!!



    I thought it might have been mentioned but i couldnt find anything on a quick search.

    Techreport seem to be the first site to have started the 'revolution' however i think the PC Perspective approach is a bit easier to get your head round.

    I think the issue with this isnt entirely about experiencing an issue visually, its about AMD artificially giving themselves better results on benchmakrs which run within the same system. Now dont get me wrong, im not saying that IS whats happening, it just seems to be whats suggested so im hoping i can poke some holes in the theory within the discussion.

    Some of the Techreport material:
    GTX 660 Ti vs 7950 Revisited
    7950 in W8
    high speed video tests
    Cross examination of the techniques

    THe radeon pro things looks interesting. If this is purely a driver issue, it would be good to see AMD adressing it and then doing some new banchmarks.

    I dont fully understand the way the GPU architecture (or any chip architecture for that matter) but in my head, i had thought that within the GPU(s) it is actually rendering the entire frame, its just not buffering correctly to deliver the frame before enough of the next one is ready which is why you get the tiny runt frames. Its not a deliberate attempt to falsify results, but in a multi GPU environment where alternate frames are rendered on each GPU, it gets complicated trying to buffer it correctly and maintain a smooth delivery.... or am i talking bollocks?
    Last edited by Biscuit; 24-02-2013 at 12:57 PM.

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    Re: GPU Testing/Reviewing techniques and Runt Frames with Crossfire

    Quote Originally Posted by Biscuit View Post
    I think the issue with this isnt entirely about experiencing an issue visually, its about AMD artificially giving themselves better results on benchmakrs which run within the same system. Now dont get me wrong, im not saying that IS whats happening, it just seems to be whats suggested so im hoping i can poke some holes in the theory within the discussion.
    ?
    However,I also want reviews to start using longer test sequences,at least 4 to 5 minutes perhaps longer.

    From PC Perspective:

    Run FRAPS while running through a repeatable section and record frame rates and frame times for 60 seconds
    Both Hardware.fr and pcgameshardware noted issues with the boost,especially with temperature variance. In fact pcgameshardware noted the boost was active for the first minute:

    http://www.pcgameshardware.de/Grafik...tan-1056659/4/

    Since the GTX Titan the temperature play a key role, we have to test driven a lot of effort and recorded the achieved clock speeds at 28 ° C inlet air is warm for each benchmark game separately in any resolution and enforced for the benchmark runs constantly by Nvidia Inspector . For another point is added:
    Current benchmark sequences are 30 to 60 seconds long gameplay snippets, which usually precedes a loading operation. Here a GPU Boost Technology 2.0 "gain momentum" as it were, for the benchmark and go through the cooler by the idle-charge phase GPU part of the test, with higher clock speeds. That is not up to what the player is experiencing in everyday life, because longer playing phases arise in which the temperature rises more and more according to the clock sinks. Therefore, would such a "standard test" will hardly do justice to our claim to deliver meaningful game benchmarks.

    In summary, we have shooed the GTX Titan in about four settings through our course to cover every possible scenario meaningful:

    • Standard method with artificially on the "guaranteed" by Nvidia boost rate of 876 MHz, limited-clock. Similarly, we handle it since the GTX 670th These values ​​also represent the basis of our tests ("@ 876 MHz")
    • Free boost development on our open test bench with enough cooler air ("dyn. Boost")
    • Individually applied to the minimum clock rate at 28 ° C inlet air is warm board set. This corresponds to the housing operation in summer temperatures ("28 ° C")
    http://translate.googleusercontent.c...9JwogVG6PTl6-A

    GPU Boost in practice

    As mentioned in the introduction, with Anno 2070 extreme as an example, the GeForce GTX Titan is able to reach its maximum turbo frequency as the GPU does not reach 80 ° C. And it reaches this temperature in all games we tested on a bench bench, with and without additional cooling around the map. If we measure the performance of a traditional way, we will get more results and pupils unrepresentative playing conditions in all our tests.

    We had to take the time to observe in detail the behavior of the Titan GTX in each game and on each resolution to ensure we do performance measures in representative conditions.

    Here are 2 examples with Anno 2070 and Battlefield 3 with a rapid test, test temperature stabilized after 5 minutes and the same test but with the latter two 120mm fans positioned around the map:

    Anno 2070: 75 fps -> 63 fps -> 68 fps
    Battlefield 3: 115 fps -> 107 fps -> 114 fps

    The drop in performance once the temperature reaches cruising can be considerable. Efficient cooling can partially compensate for this decline, but there not a contradiction in having to add noise to compensate for a graphics card is trying to remain discreet at all costs?

    It also raises the issue of reliability of performance comparisons that you can read here and there, since this may be the big difference depending on the test conditions (ventilation card but wait or not temperature rise of the GPU for measurements) between extreme cases the gain is 19% in Anno 2070 and 7.5% in Battlefield 3!

    The frequencies that we obtained in practice for two selected scenarios: limited to 889 MHz map without additional cooling / card capable of up to 1006 MHz with additional cooling. 3DMark is only able to maintain the highest frequencies through the loading time between scenes that allow the GPU never have time to reach 80 ° C.

    3DMark Fire Strike: 889/1006 MHz
    Unigne Heaven 4.0: 876/954 MHz
    Unigne Valley 1.0: 876/954 MHz
    1920 Alan Wake Max: 876/993 MHz
    Alan Wake 2560 Very High: 837/928 MHz
    2560 Alan Wake Max: 876/954 MHz
    Anno 2070: 837/902 MHz
    Assassin's Creed MSAA4x March 1920: 876/967 MHz
    Assassin's Creed March 2560 FXAA HQ: 850/941 MHz
    Assassin's Creed MSAA4x March 2560: 850/928 MHz
    Batman Arkham City AA8x: 876/993 MHz
    Batman Arkham City 2560 AA4x: 876/954 MHz
    Battlefield March 1920 MSAA 4x: 876/993 MHz
    Battlefield 3 2560: 850/928 MHz
    Battlefield March 2560 MSAA 4x: 876/954 MHz
    Civilization V AA8x 1920: 850/928 MHz
    Civilization V AA4x 2560: 837/902 MHz
    Civilization V AA8x 2560: 863/954 MHz
    February 1920 Crysis Ultra: 876/993 MHz
    February 2560 Crysis Extreme: 876/954 MHz
    February 2560 Crysis Ultra: 863/967 MHz
    DiRT Showdown 1920 Ultra: 876/954 MHz
    DiRT Showdown 2560 Ultra AL OFF: 837/928 MHz
    DiRT Showdown 2560 Ultra: 863/941 MHz
    Far Cry AA4x March 1920: 876/954 MHz
    Far Cry 3 2560: 850/928 MHz
    Hitman Absolution: 876/993 MHz
    Max Payne 3 4x AA: 876/954 MHz
    Max Payne March 2560 NOAA: 850/941 MHz
    Sleeping Dogs: 837/902 MHz
    The Witcher 2 Enhanced Edition: 876/954 MHz
    Total War Shogun MSAA4x February 1920: 837/928 MHz
    Total War Shogun February 2560 MLAA: 837/928 MHz
    Total War Shogun February 2560 MSAA 4x: 837/901 MHz
    One of the chaps on OcUK is getting one or two of the cards,and he is using long test sequences,ie,at least 10 minutes to test his cards. It is depressing when review sites fail on such a basic part of testing.

    From HC:

    http://www.hardwarecanucks.com/forum...xy-msi-21.html

    Cards with the reference cooler in certain games show interesting performance degradation with GTX660TI cards.



    This brings whole exercise could bring up some worrying points about benchmarking NVIDIA’s Kepler-based cards in reviews (and charts) where every single FPS counts. Sites benchmarking with a single run or shorter sequences will likely achieve the “best” results rather than realistic performance. Luckily, we have been able to avoid this issue by using four run-throughs of every benchmark, each with somewhat long testing times. We’ll have a full article looking at GeForce Boost and AMD’s equivalent in the coming weeks but for the time being, this is certainly food for thought.
    Test runs need to be much longer.

    At least 4 to 5 minutes for the GPU to warm up.
    Last edited by CAT-THE-FIFTH; 24-02-2013 at 01:17 PM.

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    Re: GPU Testing/Reviewing techniques and Runt Frames with Crossfire

    Feeling a little big smug that i got the MSI right now haha

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    Re: GPU Testing/Reviewing techniques and Runt Frames with Crossfire

    All those cards probably boost to the same frequency now anyway.

    O noticed when i was playing Crysis 3 last night power draw went over 100% and temps were still under 50c and yet boost would still not go over 1058MHz.
    Kalniel: "Nice review Tarinder - would it be possible to get a picture of the case when the components are installed (with the side off obviously)?"
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    for all intents it seems to be the same card minus some gays name on it and a shielded cover ? with OEM added to it - GoNz0.

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    Re: GPU Testing/Reviewing techniques and Runt Frames with Crossfire

    Quote Originally Posted by Biscuit View Post
    Feeling a little big smug that i got the MSI right now haha
    Yep,its a good example of a GTX660TI.

    I would like websites to do the following:
    1.)Use at least 5 minute test sequences to heat the GPU up,like a normal gaming run.
    2.)Use custom sequences,from at least two parts of the game,to stop demo score fiddling.
    3.)Show a framerate plot.
    4.)Show latency figures.
    5.)Comment on whether they can see a difference in reality.

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    Re: GPU Testing/Reviewing techniques and Runt Frames with Crossfire

    Quote Originally Posted by Biscuit View Post
    Feeling a little big smug that i got the MSI right now haha
    Didn't you have a 7950 last week?
    Kalniel: "Nice review Tarinder - would it be possible to get a picture of the case when the components are installed (with the side off obviously)?"
    CAT-THE-FIFTH: "The Antec 300 is a case which has an understated and clean appearance which many people like. Not everyone is into e-peen looking computers which look like a cross between the imagination of a hyperactive 10 year old and a Frog."
    TKPeters: "Off to AVForum better Deal - £20+Vat for Free Shipping @ Scan"
    for all intents it seems to be the same card minus some gays name on it and a shielded cover ? with OEM added to it - GoNz0.

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    Re: GPU Testing/Reviewing techniques and Runt Frames with Crossfire

    Quote Originally Posted by Terbinator View Post
    Didn't you have a 7950 last week?
    He had a Phenom II X4 and an HD5870. He changed over to a Core i5 and a GTX660TI. I think he wants to put OS X on the rig??

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    Re: GPU Testing/Reviewing techniques and Runt Frames with Crossfire

    Quote Originally Posted by CAT-THE-FIFTH View Post
    He had a Phenom II X4 and an HD5870. He changed over to a Core i5 and a GTX660TI. I think he wants to put OS X on the rig??
    100% correct, except the 3D mark thread got me itching for more performance so i got a second 660 Ti

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    Re: GPU Testing/Reviewing techniques and Runt Frames with Crossfire

    Ananadtech have done an article on this now:
    http://www.anandtech.com/show/6857/a...-roadmap-fraps

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    Re: GPU Testing/Reviewing techniques and Runt Frames with Crossfire

    Quote Originally Posted by Biscuit View Post
    Ananadtech have done an article on this now:
    http://www.anandtech.com/show/6857/a...-roadmap-fraps
    Page 5 is the teller. Lots of defensive stuff for the first four pages, then comes the admission that AMD simply assumed their competitors had just as bad stuttering, when they didn't

    Hopefully corner turned though, as rest of that page discusses.

    I think someone already suggested Hexus use GPUview

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    Re: GPU Testing/Reviewing techniques and Runt Frames with Crossfire

    I actually read this PR release from Nvidia again today:

    http://blogs.nvidia.com/2013/03/with...-what-you-get/

    They link back to the PCPER review when talking about the use of FCAT.

    Yet,PCPER don't mention once they have been using FCAT for the last few weeks,and instead have been passing it off as an internal effort.

    Were they under NDA??
    Last edited by CAT-THE-FIFTH; 31-03-2013 at 01:17 AM.

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    Re: GPU Testing/Reviewing techniques and Runt Frames with Crossfire

    Quote Originally Posted by CAT-THE-FIFTH View Post
    I actually read this PR release from Nvidia again today:

    http://blogs.nvidia.com/2013/03/with...-what-you-get/

    They link back to the PCPER review when talking about the use of FCAT.

    Yet,PCPER don't mention once they have been using FCAT for the last few weeks,and instead have been passing it off as an internal effort.

    Were they under NDA??
    Oh dear that is rather sneaky. NVidia will stop at nothing to sully the AMD/ATI name, its quite disgusting really.

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    Re: GPU Testing/Reviewing techniques and Runt Frames with Crossfire

    Quote Originally Posted by Biscuit View Post
    Oh dear that is rather sneaky. NVidia will stop at nothing to sully the AMD/ATI name, its quite disgusting really.
    They've been doing that for years. Never really paid it too much attention (after all Intel are no saints either and I've bought their stuff), but I should have because...

    You see a company which is this aggressive and arrogant also treats their customers with contempt, as I witnessed first hand when first my 8800GT went bad, then my brother 8800GT did too, etc. all due to Nvidia's incompetence at actually manufacturing hardware and using the wrong solder. Don't know if Nvidia actually sorted anything out for anyone in Europe. In the US they did eventually reach a settlement after a court case but the settlement was very stingy ($1500+ gaming laptop broke? Here have a $300 laptop.)

    But then again Nvidia never acknowledged anything except for 8600M/8500M while I've seen 8800GT's, nForce 7150's and those mobile parts fail all over the place. Strangely enough those parts were all on that list of parts where they secretly changed solder that Charlie (Inquirer/SA) managed to obtain. $250 million didn't go near to solving this, the true cost to Nvidia consumers was probably $1 billion +.

    The lesson? Be weary of overly aggressive companies because they may talk a lot but that's almost it and their customer service leaves a lot to be desired.

  19. #16
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    Re: GPU Testing/Reviewing techniques and Runt Frames with Crossfire

    Do we know that PCPER didn't do this first? Or at least independently?

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