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Thread: SMAA with transparency AA‏

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    spl
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    SMAA with transparency AA‏

    Does anyone know how SMAA handles alpha textures? Is the MSAA element of the algorithm applied or just the morphological aspect? Or does SMAA just ignore alpha textures entirely?

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    Re: SMAA with transparency AA‏

    Quote Originally Posted by spl View Post
    Does anyone know how SMAA handles alpha textures? Is the MSAA element of the algorithm applied or just the morphological aspect? Or does SMAA just ignore alpha textures entirely?
    SMAA copes fine with alpha textures. It doesn't really use MSAA in the traditional sense, just uses it for offset sub-pixel sampling (but still as a post-process/2D operation). Because it's all post-process there's no need to distinguish alpha textures or anything - it all just acts on visible 'edges' in the final scene regardless of whether they're geometry or texture.

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    spl
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    Re: SMAA with transparency AA‏

    Thanks for the excellent response! I've been unable to find a real explanation of SMAA so was totally unaware it was all post-process. So there's really no reason to use transparency AA in conjunction with SMAA then?

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    Re: SMAA with transparency AA‏

    Quote Originally Posted by spl View Post
    Thanks for the excellent response! I've been unable to find a real explanation of SMAA so was totally unaware it was all post-process. So there's really no reason to use transparency AA in conjunction with SMAA then?
    Well there can be some edges which SMAA fails to detect or deal with very well, in which case you might want to use transparency AA as well as SMAA. But you don't *need* to use it to deal with alpha textures.

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    spl
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    Re: SMAA with transparency AA‏

    Sounds like I stand to gain more from the performance boost of disabling transparency AA. Thanks for your help kalniel, much appreciated. Rare to come across somebody with a genuinely in-depth understanding of anti-aliasing!

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    Re: SMAA with transparency AA‏

    Quote Originally Posted by spl View Post
    Sounds like I stand to gain more from the performance boost of disabling transparency AA. Thanks for your help kalniel, much appreciated. Rare to come across somebody with a genuinely in-depth understanding of anti-aliasing!
    I like my image quality enhancements! One of the reasons I went with AMD for this round - was a toss up between ambient occlusion from nVidia vs a very nice adaptive AA mode from AMD which includes a sensible automatic negative LOD clamping to produce really nice textures as well as great AA. Generic AO seems to be a bit hit and miss and games have started to include their own versions which are a little better tailored.

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    spl
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    Re: SMAA with transparency AA‏

    Haha well I'll definitely know who to talk to about control panel settings! :-) I've only just started using ambient occlusion (since I only just got a powerful card) but I think it's an enhancement that will be much less noticeable to me than anti-aliasing. I did use adaptive AA on my 4870 (by the way, don't suppose you know if the 'performance' setting equates to MSAA on alpha textures and the 'quality' setting uses SSAA?) but was not at all impressed by morphological AA on my 5970.

    Seems like Crytek have developed a near perfect implementation of anti-aliasing with SMAA? None of the ugly blur of other post-process methods, combined with no loss of AA on alpha textures and infront of shader effects like you'd get with MSAA, and no SSAA-grade performance hit (near enough no performance hit at all at 2x SMAA).

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    Re: SMAA with transparency AA‏

    Yes I really love SMAA. Morphological methods like SMAA have some great advantages for games using deferred rendering, not to mention they're incredibly fast/low memory. As you note though, they can be quite clumsy, like early FSAA and MLAA, not to mention versions for consoles. But if possible I prefer traditional methods and forward rendering - not to sound like an AMD fan (because I'm not) but the work they've done to push stuff that's usually done as deferred rendering into a forward renderer and thus open to all the range of AA methods etc. is quite neat (see the Leo demo). TXAA (nVidia) is also nice for renderings for movies - it's very very smooth and fast, but quite blurry - with motion this just adds to the smoothness though.

    Performance and Quality are to do with texture mipmaps (and compression) rather than AA aren't they? (Or are you talking about a very old catalyst version that had generic presets that set up both AA and AF etc.?)

    The equivalent thing I think you're talking about is MSAA vs Adaptive AA vs SSAA. MSAA is your usual MSAA (plus options for separate colour sampling ala CSAA etc.). Different card series have different filters available - eg box or tent, or edge. SSAA is an optimised SSAA (like the nVidia equivalent, it's not true SSAA). Adaptive AA uses both according to what is being dealt with in the scene, so alpha textures fall under the list of things SSAA would be used for rather than MSAA. The texture LOD enhancements apply with both Adaptive and SSAA, but not MSAA afaik.

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    spl
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    Re: SMAA with transparency AA‏

    I was talking about the adaptive AA setting - if I recall correctly, after enabling it, you chose between performance and quality (no inbetween). I always assumed performance meant transparency MSAA while quality was transparency SSAA. Catalyst version wasn't the latest, but the newest available for a 4870 - 12.4 legacy. Can't remember what version I was on with the 5970. I'm interested in this SSAA though - I wouldn't ever try it (unless replaying some old 2003 game or something) due to performance hit, but I would have always think SSAA is referring to supersampling? I don't think I even have the option anyway with my GeForce.

    Crytek do seem to achieved something exceptional with SMAA. Would be great to see this supported universally across all games. I guess it'll just be limited to CryEngine-based games though. Only flaw I could perceive in the video demo was a very slight blurring on some textures when zoomed right up to the object. Nothing like as noticeable as the TXAA blur though. I love crisp/accurate AA (like SSAA or MSAA+transparency AA) but I'd actually take no AA over MLAA/FXAA/TXAA.

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    Banhammer in peace PeterB kalniel's Avatar
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    Re: SMAA with transparency AA‏

    Quote Originally Posted by spl View Post
    I was talking about the adaptive AA setting - if I recall correctly, after enabling it, you chose between performance and quality (no inbetween).
    I've never seen that with any of my cards or catalyst versions. Maybe it was something specific to the 5000 series. (Didn't see it with my 4870 either )

    I'm interested in this SSAA though - I wouldn't ever try it (unless replaying some old 2003 game or something) due to performance hit, but I would have always think SSAA is referring to supersampling? I don't think I even have the option anyway with my GeForce.
    It should be there somewhere - is it (correctly) called OGSSAA instead? Will check the other computer (that happens to have a gtx 560 in - told you I'm not an AMD fanboy ).

    Crytek do seem to achieved something exceptional with SMAA. Would be great to see this supported universally across all games. I guess it'll just be limited to CryEngine-based games though.
    No it's completely game and modern GPU -agnostic. You can run it on any directX game via the SMAA injector (http://mrhaandi.blogspot.co.uk/p/injectsmaa.html) - it's just a bit of DX shader code that runs on the final image from a game render.

    Only flaw I could perceive in the video demo was a very slight blurring on some textures when zoomed right up to the object. Nothing like as noticeable as the TXAA blur though. I love crisp/accurate AA (like SSAA or MSAA+transparency AA) but I'd actually take no AA over MLAA/FXAA/TXAA.
    Yep I'm exactly the same (hence AMD choice )

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    Re: SMAA with transparency AA‏

    Awesome - thanks! I'll rely on SMAA exclusively now! And Adaptive AA was (is) just AMD's transparency AA. Control panel just never explained the actual difference between the performance and quality options. nVidia's control panel on the other hand makes it clear whether you're using SSAA or MSAA for alpha textures. I will read up on this OGSSAA. SMAA looks like a near enough perfect solution, but can't hurt to be aware of the alternatives :-)

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    Re: SMAA with transparency AA‏

    Nice going, chaps, that was a most informative discussion.

    Thank you

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    spl
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    Re: SMAA with transparency AA‏

    I will take that at face value! :-) Your monitor meets with the spl Committee Stamp of Approval.

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    Re: SMAA with transparency AA‏

    Quote Originally Posted by spl View Post
    I will take that at face value! :-)
    As you should - the clapping emoticon does lend an unintended air of sarcasm, unfortunately. My gesture of thanks was sincere.
    Quote Originally Posted by spl View Post
    Your monitor meets with the spl Committee Stamp of Approval.
    Funnily enough, my monitor/GPU combo doesn't lend itself well to SMAA at 1600p in many cases.

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    spl
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    Re: SMAA with transparency AA‏

    Haha I did wonder :-) Glad you enjoyed the read - it was very informative for me. Pleasing to find somebody who really knows their stuff. I asked the question on Tom's Hardware and people didn't have a clue. What's the problem with SMAA and your monitor? A visual glitch or performance issues?

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    Re: SMAA with transparency AA‏

    Quote Originally Posted by spl View Post
    Haha I did wonder :-) Glad you enjoyed the read - it was very informative for me. Pleasing to find somebody who really knows their stuff. I asked the question on Tom's Hardware and people didn't have a clue. What's the problem with SMAA and your monitor? A visual glitch or performance issues?
    Performance.

    The 670 is a great card, but a few titles need a bit more grunt with everything turned up to 11 at 1600p.

    I'm not complaining, because everything looks good at that res anyway.

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