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Thread: First non reference R9 290X cards pictured! R9 290 cards to be released first

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    First non reference R9 290X cards pictured! R9 290 cards to be released first

    Asus posted some pictures on FB:

    https://www.facebook.com/media/set/?...4002387&type=1

    MSI Lightning PCB pictured:

    http://www.techpowerup.com/195272/ms...-pictured.html

    It seems non-reference R9 290 cards are being released between mid-December and mid-January:

    http://www.techpowerup.com/195371/cu...n-r9-290x.html

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    Re: First non reference R9 290X cards pictured! R9 290 cards to be released first

    I found this link too.

    WCCF Tech Report

    I have been holding back to see what happens when the third part coolers hit the market, I don't really know how much of a difference this has made in the past, are we likely to see significant gains in cooling performance with something like a Direct CU II design? Or is that we might end up with a card that's only 1% to 3% degree cooler than the reference model?
    Last edited by KeyboardDemon; 05-12-2013 at 10:31 AM.

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    Re: First non reference R9 290X cards pictured! R9 290 cards to be released first

    Hopefully they will be cooler, quieter and overclock further... but thats all obvious isnt it ^_^

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    Re: First non reference R9 290X cards pictured! R9 290 cards to be released first

    Quote Originally Posted by KeyboardDemon View Post
    I found this link too.

    WCCF Tech Report

    I have been holding back to see what happens when the third part coolers hit the market, I don't really know how much of a difference this has made in the past, are we likely to see significant gains in cooling performance with something like a Direct CU II design? Or is that we might end up with a card that's only 1% to 3% degree cooler than the reference model?
    ht4u.net and THG already did a test with aftermarket DIY coolers. The difference was a lot more than 3%:
    http://www.tomshardware.co.uk/r9-290...w-32828-4.html
    http://ht4u.net/reviews/2013/arctic_...290/index5.php
    http://ht4u.net/reviews/2013/r9_290_...est/index6.php

    ht4u.net's temps went down from 94°C to 58°C-69°C (they used a few settings: these DIY coolers can run their fans at 12V, 7V, etc.). Noise went down from 46dB(A) to 17.9dB(A) and power consumption went down about 30W (hot silicon is leakier and uses more power).

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    Re: First non reference R9 290X cards pictured! R9 290 cards to be released first

    The do it yourself coolers will still be better, they always are.
    That Asus CU cooler looks exactly the same as the one on their 280x and that runs low 70s. So my guess is it will run a 290 at low 80s but relatively quiet instead of sounding like a hoover.

    When asked for a release date their reply was:
    Well.. for now we are still working hard on making it cool. TBA
    Which hints that you should maybe not expect some really low temperatures.

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    Re: First non reference R9 290X cards pictured! R9 290 cards to be released first

    AMD really should have taken an AC Extreme III and sold it. Of course, AC would have to improve their VRM cooling or AMD redesign their PCBs so that the Extreme III actually cools it. The amount of bad PR, the R9-290/290X have gotten is unbelievable.

    Of course, this based on real problems but the fact that it's getting so much publicity has a lot to do with Nvidia's spin machine. Strangely enough, the variability in Kepler's boost never got much coverage. And the #1 GPU problem of all time (Nvidia's bad choice of solder aka bumpgate) didn't get that much coverage either.

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    Re: First non reference R9 290X cards pictured! R9 290 cards to be released first

    Quote Originally Posted by kompukare View Post
    AMD really should have taken an AC Extreme III and sold it. Of course, AC would have to improve their VRM cooling or AMD redesign their PCBs so that the Extreme III actually cools it. The amount of bad PR, the R9-290/290X have gotten is unbelievable.

    Of course, this based on real problems but the fact that it's getting so much publicity has a lot to do with Nvidia's spin machine. Strangely enough, the variability in Kepler's boost never got much coverage. And the #1 GPU problem of all time (Nvidia's bad choice of solder aka bumpgate) didn't get that much coverage either.
    The thing is I get the impression many review sites are much more scared of Nvidia than AMD,and that they will cut off review samples(it has happened before IIRC). I think AMD,sadly,has to start becoming more aggressive in this manner too.

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    Re: First non reference R9 290X cards pictured! R9 290 cards to be released first

    Does MSI Lightning PCB looks impressive or what. More sophisticated power cascade that on most of motherboards.

    Wonder how's the new AMD powerTuning settings will fare against advanced cooling solutions (the old setup was the following: run the card until it reaches 95 °C then start to throttle). Could it be that with the new coolers the cards will not slow down at all at default? Of course highly unlikely that with advanced coolers the manufacturers will sell the cards on default clock but still...

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    Re: First non reference R9 290X cards pictured! R9 290 cards to be released first

    Quote Originally Posted by CAT-THE-FIFTH View Post
    ... I think AMD,sadly,has to start becoming more aggressive in this manner too.
    You know, I sincerely hope they don't. I think it's to AMD's (and ATI's before them) great credit that they've tried to avoid getting caught up in the temptation to smear an opponent's products, preferring to concentrate on making their own better. The last thing we need is for the whole graphics market to devolve into a contest to see who can sling the most mud. Plus I don't see how it'll help - it won't stop the rabid nvidia fanboys slating AMD and bigging-up nvidia (in fact, it'll just give them another thing to moan about), and it might put some of the AMD fans off if AMD appear to be turning into a spin-and-smear company.

    It's also worth pointing out that one potential influencing factor in nvidia's current behaviour is that their developer relations program - once their strongest suit in the gaming graphics market - is falling way behind AMDs. I remember there was once a time when well over 50% of the games in any given graphics review would be TWIMTBP titles, while you were lucky if even one was from ... well whatever ATI's equivalent program was called (yes, it was so unsuccessful I can't even remember its name!). Now there are more Gaming Evolved titles than .. again, whatever nvidia's current program is called (is it still TWIMTBP?). AMD have all the major consoles, they have Mantle coming out, they have a very successful developer relations program - they don't need to resort to slinging mud. They're sitting on the key software stack for the next several years of gaming development. If nvidia want a slice of that pie, they're going to have play nicey-nicey at some point. AMD just need to wait

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    Re: First non reference R9 290X cards pictured! R9 290 cards to be released first

    Quote Originally Posted by Bonebreaker777 View Post
    ... Could it be that with the new coolers the cards will not slow down at all at default? Of course highly unlikely that with advanced coolers the manufacturers will sell the cards on default clock but still...
    Have you not read the linked reviews above about using aftermarket coolers on R9 290-series cards?

    You can run the card heavily overclocked (1100MHz+) with no throttling and temps down in the 60s or 70s. Basically you're back to the old-fashioned overclocking limits of power delivery and card stability. The bigger issue seems to be keeping the power delivery circuits cool with reference design cards - which is presumably what the partners are working on with their custom cards.

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    Re: First non reference R9 290X cards pictured! R9 290 cards to be released first

    Quote Originally Posted by grayg1 View Post
    The do it yourself coolers will still be better, they always are.
    I've heard that in other places too, but I am not feeling up to taking a brand new £400 to £550 card then invalidating my warranty to add a £120 cooler to it, if I could buy the two parts and have the cooler fitted by a reputable retailer that would then offer a warranty that's either as long as or longer than the manufacturer's original warranty then I'd be all over that like a rash.

    Does anyone know if Scan or any other well known retailers offer or will be offering this?

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    Re: First non reference R9 290X cards pictured! R9 290 cards to be released first

    Probably only in a complete watercooled build or similar - its not in their interests to void a manufacturer's warranty then take on responsibility for that component themselves for what would be a tiny additional margin above what are already fairly tight margins for the retailers themselves. I see no benefit to the retailer in the scenario you describe.

    Obviously in a full build the retailer is offering a warranty on the computer as a system rather than on the individual components, and they probably make a slightly better margin once they add the build costs etc, so they can be slightly more adventurous in their offerings.

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    Re: First non reference R9 290X cards pictured! R9 290 cards to be released first

    Quote Originally Posted by scaryjim View Post
    You know, I sincerely hope they don't. I think it's to AMD's (and ATI's before them) great credit that they've tried to avoid getting caught up in the temptation to smear an opponent's products, preferring to concentrate on making their own better. The last thing we need is for the whole graphics market to devolve into a contest to see who can sling the most mud. Plus I don't see how it'll help - it won't stop the rabid nvidia fanboys slating AMD and bigging-up nvidia (in fact, it'll just give them another thing to moan about), and it might put some of the AMD fans off if AMD appear to be turning into a spin-and-smear company.

    It's also worth pointing out that one potential influencing factor in nvidia's current behaviour is that their developer relations program - once their strongest suit in the gaming graphics market - is falling way behind AMDs. I remember there was once a time when well over 50% of the games in any given graphics review would be TWIMTBP titles, while you were lucky if even one was from ... well whatever ATI's equivalent program was called (yes, it was so unsuccessful I can't even remember its name!). Now there are more Gaming Evolved titles than .. again, whatever nvidia's current program is called (is it still TWIMTBP?). AMD have all the major consoles, they have Mantle coming out, they have a very successful developer relations program - they don't need to resort to slinging mud. They're sitting on the key software stack for the next several years of gaming development. If nvidia want a slice of that pie, they're going to have play nicey-nicey at some point. AMD just need to wait
    Didn't think of that!! However,they still need to do something. How many review sites have tested Nvidia retail cards with reference coolers?? The problem is if it continues,it will put false doubt into people buying their cards,as a result of unfair assessment of both companies products. This is the problem with having to rely on the goodwill of companies to give you hardware to review,as your livelihood is so dependent on it.

    Edit!!

    I just hope the non-reference cards can deflate the NV campaign somewhat. However,the review sites not testing Nvidia retail cards too,has lead to a dangerous precedent IMHO.

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    Re: First non reference R9 290X cards pictured! R9 290 cards to be released first

    @scaryjim: Those are all good points and well made, thanks.

    Looks it will be a non-reference card for me then, but not before I've seen the Hexus review results first. It would great to see the non-reference coolers reviewed with results compared to reference, reference with third part cooler(s) and the actual non-reference card being reviewed as well (would be a pointless review is they missed the last part!).

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    Re: First non reference R9 290X cards pictured! R9 290 cards to be released first

    Quote Originally Posted by scaryjim View Post
    Have you not read the linked reviews above about using aftermarket coolers on R9 290-series cards?

    You can run the card heavily overclocked (1100MHz+) with no throttling and temps down in the 60s or 70s. Basically you're back to the old-fashioned overclocking limits of power delivery and card stability. The bigger issue seems to be keeping the power delivery circuits cool with reference design cards - which is presumably what the partners are working on with their custom cards.
    The first time I replied I haven't read them yet, but I did now. That is actually fantastic. Still interesting to imagine when a silicon based chip runs cooler and faster consumes less that when running hot and have to throttle itself. What would it take for both nVidia and AMD to release reference cards with adequate cooling (adequate in this context = advanced compared to the current reference coolers) right at the time of introduction?

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    Re: First non reference R9 290X cards pictured! R9 290 cards to be released first

    Quote Originally Posted by Bonebreaker777 View Post
    ... What would it take for both nVidia and AMD to release reference cards with adequate cooling (adequate in this context = advanced compared to the current reference coolers) right at the time of introduction?
    OK, key fact 1. Current reference GPU coolers are already adequate - that is to say, they can dissipate the amount of heat that the underlying GPU generates. You don't get thermal shutdown on a modern reference GPU (I've had older GPUs that *did* have inadequate cooling and would crash as soon as I put a 3D load on them).

    nvidia's reference coolers are usually pretty good, and recent ones have been above average. That's almost certainly one reason why nvidia cards of late have been more expensive than their AMD equivalents (although the larger die sizes play a more significant role in that). AMD have a patchy history with reference coolers; some good, some medoicre; this has been particularly noticable since they started aiming for the value proposition rather than the absolute performance crown.

    Of course, price is the key - you're always engineering to a cost point. Recently AMD have aimed to offer high performance for money which means they've concentrated on making the cooler just good enough for the lowest price. They'll invest the amount of money they think they can spare in the cooler, taking into consideration the target market price for each card. For the 290/X, they wanted to target a very low market price for the complexity, silicon and performance budget. So that meant making a cooler that was just adequate. If they thought the market could take a higher price, I'm sure they'd've invested more time and money in the cooler. BUT also look at it this way: AMD know partners are going to stick their own cooling designs on these cards, regardless of how good the reference cooler is. That's how Gigabyte, Sapphire, MSI, ASUS et al. differentiate their offering when the underlying GPU is exactly the same. So why bother spending extra money designing a better stock cooler, when you know that a lot of cards will end up using coolers that someone else has paid to design and develop.

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