Graphic card warranty conundrum

Sorry for the necro, but pretty sure I got told off for posting this in the Scan section, so found the latest thread that contained the word 'Warranty' that seemed relevant

Good afternoon all,

Have a little conundrum which is scratching the legalese in my head in regards to Warranty replacements. I have (had?) an R9 390 that was faulty for a while, sent it in, it was 'repaired' it crapped out even worse after a couple of months and now I am being offered ~£70 because the Scan representative told me "Unfortunately MSI don't have any similar cards, as such they have offered this value to ourselves.". I queried that, as MSI is a GPU manufacturer, I am not after an upgrade just something at least similar in performance would be sufficient and was told "The credit they have given us to pass to yourself is more than what your legal entitlement...".

Does that sound right?

Many thanks to any advice that someone more knowledgeable on this can offer, this is the first part I have ever returned to anyone that has been greeted with a monetary offer that wouldn't even get me something barely comparable to the item submitted for repair.

Kindest,
Mulletan

**Edit 1**
For future generations, if your card is no longer manufactured it appears you might be better off contacting uk.dcc-rma.erc@msi.com rather than your reseller to arrange RMA. This way you are dealing with MSI directly.

**Edit 2**
For anyone else looking at warranty claims don't just ask to perform an RMA if you go through your retailer, follow the advice from Saracen

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Mulletan

Sorry for the necro, but pretty sure I got told off for posting this in the Scan section, so found the latest thread that contained the word 'Warranty' that seemed relevant

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You weren't "told off"..

PeterB's reply was to other posters that aren't yourself or SCAN...you're just as likely to get "told off" for necro'ing such an old thread.

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Originally Posted by Disturbedguy

You weren't "told off"..

PeterB's reply was to other posters that aren't yourself or SCAN...you're just as likely to get "told off" for necro'ing such an old thread.

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Indeed - but there was nothing to stop you starting anew thread in the relevant HEXUS section!

(You didn't need to resurrect an old thread - we have plenty of server storage :) )

Welcome to HEXUS, by the way - we hope you will continue to contribute after you initial query has been resolved.

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So I've moved this to a new thread.....

I am not a lawyer, but my understanding is that the Sale of Goods act applies, and the UK warranty period is 6 years. That warranty states that the item is free from defect and meets the performance at the time of sale.

If the product fails within 6 months, the onus is on the seller to prove that the product was not faulty at the time of sale - after that period, the onus is on the buyer to prove that it did have a defect that caused the failure.

Most manufacturers go further than that and offer a 1 year or longer period where they will replace the item - however they do not have to replace it with a new item, or extend the warranty beyond the original term - it will run from when you bought the original item.

If the product has been discontinued, within the 6 month (or longer) no quibble period you may be offered an alternative of equal or better performance. After that you may be offered a repair or the option to buy a similar product at a discount or a cash refund based on the residual value of the product. How that residual value is determined may be or may not be negotiable.

So an item that cost £100 with a six year life may only be worth £50 (or less) after three years - and that takes into account that you have had three year's use of the item.

That is very broad brush, and as I say, I am not a lawyer or expert on consumer law, but that is my understanding.

In my opinion if they are unwilling to give you a replacement of the same or greater performance then the money that should be refunded should be at least its second hand value on Ebay (Sold value).

So in this case the cheapest I could see for an R9 390 is about £130 including del going up to about £170

https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/MSI-Radeo...8AAOSwHPNbCZ84

£70 is nearly what you get for the faulty stuff on Ebay... taking the mick if you ask me. This sort of nonsense is why I don't by from Ebuyer any more.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Kumagoro

In my opinion if they are unwilling to give you a replacement of the same or greater performance then the money that should be refunded should be at least its second hand value on Ebay (Sold value).

So in this case the cheapest I could see for an R9 390 is about £130 including del going up to about £170

https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/MSI-Radeo...8AAOSwHPNbCZ84

£70 is nearly what you get for the faulty stuff on Ebay... taking the mick if you ask me. This sort of nonsense is why I don't by from Ebuyer any more.

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Well it is faulty! :)

But I'd agree, it would be more realistic to base it on the price of a used working card, as that is what it was! So there may be scope for negotiation.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Kumagoro

In my opinion if they are unwilling to give you a replacement of the same or greater performance then the money that should be refunded should be at least its second hand value on Ebay (Sold value).

So in this case the cheapest I could see for an R9 390 is about £130 including del going up to about £170

https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/MSI-Radeo...8AAOSwHPNbCZ84

£70 is nearly what you get for the faulty stuff on Ebay... taking the mick if you ask me. This sort of nonsense is why I don't by from Ebuyer any more.

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That's not how it works, though.

The "offer" that will be made will (or at least, should) represent the purchase price, with a deduction for the use the consumer has had.

Products are assumed to last a "reasonable" time. Quite how long that is ultimately a court's decision, not least because the law is exactly the same regardless of whether the "product" is a car or a banana. But, obviously, a "reasonable" time is going to be a bit less for a bsnana.

There are guidelines though, and I'd guess "reasonable" for a graphics card to be 5 or 6 years. So, call it 6 years, or 72 months.

Now suppose the card dies after a year and a half. i.e. 18 months.

A deduction for the use the consumer has had, therefore, would be for the 18 months of use, out of the 72 months that could reasonably have been predicted, which is 18/72ths of the purchase price.

The longer the card lasted, the lower the residual value will be, because the time the consumer benefited goes up.

Both repairs and replacements are options, usually at the consuumer's choice provided that that option is both possible, and not disproportately expensive.


What I would say, though, if I understand the story correctly, is that if the card has been returned to Scan, as the retailer, then whatever the manufacturer offered Scan as a crefit is completely, totally and utterly irrelevant.

That credit figure is a matter between Scan and the manufacturer, which is a completrely different contract to the one between a retail customer and the retailer, in this case Scan, and the determination of that "deduction" is defined by UK consumer law, not the commercial relationship between Scan and their supplier.

All the above is based on rights under consumer law, which would apply if the card was returned to Scan, as faulty. However, if the card was returned to the manufacturer under their guarantee/warranty, eell, that's very different. You more or less get what the guarantee says.

Make them a counter offer. I once spent 2 weeks bouncing messages back and forth with Ebuyer over the refund/credit amount for a faulty PSU, as neither Ebuyer nor me were particular keen on sending the thing off to the Netherlands for repair/replacement.

Scan are protecting their bottom line, so an initial low ball offer is unsurprising.

Thank you all for the input, I did push back quite a few times and was just met each time that it was that or nothing. I will wait to see what DavidM comes back with in that other thread and/or MSI as I emailed them directly to query this.

Will keep this thread updated for anyone in the future who comes across similar because, by my interweb hunting, this is becoming the norm to not offer replacements.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Mulletan

Thank you all for the input, I did push back quite a few times and was just met each time that it was that or nothing. I will wait to see what DavidM comes back with in that other thread and/or MSI as I emailed them directly to query this.

Will keep this thread updated for anyone in the future who comes across similar because, by my interweb hunting, this is becoming the norm to not offer replacements.

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Well, there's two ways to reach an offer.

1) What you can negotiate. If they won't budge, their offer may be the best tgat route will provide.

2) Small Claims court. This is fast and pretty easy, but not without drawbacks. One is, the hassle. Second, you pay a fee up-front which you would usually get back, together with expenses. Third, you might not win. Fourth, after you win you still have to get the judgement enforced which, with some companies, can be a probkem. I woukdn't expect Scan to be a problem if they lose.

I would only advocate court IF you really feel their offer is unfair and unreasonable, AND if you're prepared to go through the hassle, AND if you have taken even reasonable step to resolve it before going that route.

I would also strongly advise against threatening court unless you REALLY mean it. If it's a bluff and they call it (which most companies will, at least initially) it leaves you nowhere else to go.

But if you are prepared to fight, bear one CRUCIAL point in mind. Courts generally do not like their time wasted. So, think carefully about how "reasonable" their offer is. Don't be rude or obstructive, and take all reasonable steps to reach a compromise, and most importantly, DOCUMENT EVERYTHING

If you talk on the phone, note date, time, who you spoke to and the basics of what was said, asked for, offered and/or agreed. It is highly recommended to then confirm that by email. Such as "Dear Fred, Following our telephone conversation on <date/time>, I would like to confirm the following results :- .... blah, blah, etc>.

If it does get to court, that evidence trail, both of what was said/agreed, and your attempts to reach a suitable agreement short of court, will count in your favour.

I've done this a number of times over the years, including with a couple of retailers, but also with Ford, a major credit card company, a publushing group that refused to pay for work done and with a major insurance comany. Only a couple of times has it actually got to court, and on both occasions I won by default as the over side didn't bother showing up.

Of course, I am pretty selective in when I go that route, and only do it when I feel I really am being screwed, and by enough to make it worth while.

Remember, it is a hassle, and there's no guarantee you'll win. Personnally, when I go that route, it's ONLY if I feel they really are being wholly unreasonable, and, I'm annoyed enough by it to put up with the hassle. But I never, ever bluff. If I use that threat, it is because I WILL go through with it. The initial threat, in my experience, is always rejected, because most peopke are bluffing. When they get the court papers,mit gets their attention. Some will fold on principle, it not being worth their hassle, but others will fight on principle, fearing a deluge if they don't. Hence, don't do it unless you're serious.

By the way, the process itself is simple. It's not fancy courts and wigs. It's you, the other side ( if they show up) the judge and usually an official taking notes, sitting round a desk. Very informal, unthreatening and easy.

Oh, and the court won't "punish" either side. If you win, you'll get that "reasonable" figure, usually plus genuine costs. If the court feels one side is wholly unreasonable, they might push it a bit on the award, and expenses. But all you'll likely get is what you were reasonably" entitled to short of court, plus reasonable and necessary expenses of going to court. IF YOU WIN. ;)

Just to add to Saracens comprehensive post - a starting point would be to determine the second hand value of the card of the age of yours. You might look at some online auction site sales (preferably several) and get screen shots of the final sales price. (That is the age now from the initial sale). Ideally the same make and model but if you can’t find any, you could use similar model types from other mfrs and be prepared to explain why and how that is representative if it ever gets to court.

What I find surprising with this is it seems entirely on the reseller, in this case Scan, to refund and for me to take them to court. My problem it seems is not with Scan, it is with MSI and their warranty - what is the point of a warranty on the product if they pass all the blame of their misdoings onto the store you bought it from?

From MSI themselves:-
Limited warranty service: Under the normal condition of use, the Company provides limited warranty service according to your Product and purchasing region. The Company carries out hardware free replacement warranty within warranty period after the date you purchase the device.

However, it seems here they can just offer a minimal monetary award (I assume) through their distributors/resellers when they no longer create a specific product and have them stomach the fallout if it is unreasonable.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Mulletan

What I find surprising with this is it seems entirely on the reseller, in this case Scan, to refund and for me to take them to court. My problem it seems is not with Scan, it is with MSI and their warranty - what is the point of a warranty on the product if they pass all the blame of their misdoings onto the store you bought it from?

From MSI themselves:-
Limited warranty service: Under the normal condition of use, the Company provides limited warranty service according to your Product and purchasing region. The Company carries out hardware free replacement warranty within warranty period after the date you purchase the device.

However, it seems here they can just offer a minimal monetary award (I assume) through their distributors/resellers when they no longer create a specific product and have them stomach the fallout if it is unreasonable.

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Oh, that's a completely separate thing to the matter you seem to detail in your original post. You've bought a product which claims to come with a warranty (still?! must have been a good warranty), and you wish to claim on the warranty? In which case you probably don't involve SCAN at all, you go straight to the warranty provider (eg MSI) and follow their instructions for claiming under the warranty.

Only send the card to SCAN if MSI have agreed to the warranty replacement and have asked you to send it there under part of your specific warranty claim case. (if you're claiming the warranty, not consumer regulations)

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Mulletan

What I find surprising with this is it seems entirely on the reseller, in this case Scan, to refund and for me to take them to court. My problem it seems is not with Scan, it is with MSI and their warranty - what is the point of a warranty on the product if they pass all the blame of their misdoings onto the store you bought it from?

From MSI themselves:-
Limited warranty service: Under the normal condition of use, the Company provides limited warranty service according to your Product and purchasing region. The Company carries out hardware free replacement warranty within warranty period after the date you purchase the device.

However, it seems here they can just offer a minimal monetary award (I assume) through their distributors/resellers when they no longer create a specific product and have them stomach the fallout if it is unreasonable.

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Under UK consumer law your contract is with the seller.

With regard to warranty statements, the devil is in the detail, so you need to read the specific details for the region you bought it in - but that doesn't alter the fact that it is the seller's responsibility - they then have to take what steps they deem reasonable against their distributor.

(Bearing in mind I am not a lawyer!)

Quote:

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Originally Posted by kalniel

Oh, that's a completely separate thing to the matter you seem to detail in your original post. You've bought a product which claims to come with a warranty (still?! must have been a good warranty), and you wish to claim on the warranty? In which case you probably don't involve SCAN at all, you go straight to the warranty provider (eg MSI) and follow their instructions for claiming under the warranty.

Only send the card to SCAN if MSI have agreed to the warranty replacement and have asked you to send it there under part of your specific warranty claim case. (if you're claiming the warranty, not consumer regulations)

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In the UK it goes via the reseller from the start.

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Originally Posted by Mulletan

In the UK it goes via the reseller from the start.

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If you're claiming under consumer regs, yes. In which case the MSI warranty has no bearing.

If you're claiming the warranty, then you likely have to follow MSI's warranty claim procedure, which might involve going via the retailer, but in that case I'm sure you'd have to get approval from MSI and for SCAN to be aware of that.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by kalniel

If you're claiming under consumer regs, yes. In which case the MSI warranty has no bearing.

If you're claiming the warranty, then you likely have to follow MSI's warranty claim procedure, which might involve going via the retailer, but in that case I'm sure you'd have to get approval from MSI and for SCAN to be aware of that.

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Agree completely now and I shall be adding to the top of the thread. At the time of the first problem I had with the card I was told by MSI support in regards to a ticket:

Sorry for your encounter ; Your Graphics card may be broken,
In this case, We suggest you contact with the local service center for checking for your card ; Then they will give you more help directly.


So I dug around trying to get details of local service center and at the same time asked Scan if they knew, they responded they would handle it so I sent it through them. Not long after I got a response from uk.dcc-rma.erc@msi.com that they can handle the RMA at my expense of shipping to them. That seems to be the route I should have (unknowingly at the time) waited for and gone through and should possibly be the route anyone in the future who reads this goes if your card is no longer manufactured.

The confusion, I suspect, is that consumer rights and manufacturer warrsnty are very different things. You always have consumer rights if you are a consumer (i.e. not a business buyer) ajd you might have a manufscturer warranty.

Consumer rights are always enforceable against the business you bought the goods from. This is usually the retailer, unless ypu bought direct from a manufacturer. The extent of those rights, both in what you are and aren't entitled to, are defined by UK law, though that UK law is somewhat defined by EU regulations. If relying on stztutory rights, in your case, it'd be Scsn, as the retailer, you deal with.

Manufacturer warranties are rmuch less regulated, and they aren't obliged to offer anything. If they do, then grnerally you csn enforce it in the courts if need be BUT what they offer, what they exclude, how long they offer it for and the T&C's are more or less what they say they are (in thrir warranty T&Cs).

Where it gets extra confusing is that sometimes, retailers operate as a kind-of agent for manufacturer warranty claims. This is far from uncommon where the manufacturer us not UK-based, and too small to hsve a UK operation. In which case, someone like Sczn might well collect cards up, srnd them back to MSI ina batch, and pass on whatever MSI offer to you. In that case, they're simply acting as a midfle-man, perhaps to save you having to ship the card back internationslly.

To be clear, provided you are a consumer, you MIGHT (and in this case do) have a warranty claim, but ALWAYS have your condumer rights.

Which route you rely on is up to you. But it's worth noting that manufacturer warranty rights are often more generous thsn your statutory consumer rights, and you might well do better, and very likely faster, by going the warranty route.

To give an idea of the variation, I have a kitchen device with a 20-year motor warranty. Consumer righrs top out at 6 or 7 yesrs.

On the other hand, I use a clothes retailer with a 60-day "for any reason" warranty. Cigar burns? Covered. Dog chewed it? Covered.

But if I were to rely on my consumer rights on those clothes I might have several years (whatever "reasonable time" is) but ONLY if the goods were faulty, and the faulr was "inherent" at time of purchzse, such as fsulty design, faulty components or materials, or faulty manufacture. But cigars or dog damage? No chance.


What responsibility Scan have depends kn what you asked of them - facilitate a warranty claim, or your consuner rights.

I didn't make either clear and that is my mistake and have subsequently taken the hit with the offer. After some to-and-fro with MSI they repeated similar and that this was taken as a consumer it was refunded as such.

I have edited the first post to reflect this for anyone else, don't make the same mistake I did.

Even if you went the warranty toute initially, and it often is the best route, yiu can always subsequently fall back on a consumer rights claim at a later time. Those righrs are embedded in statute and cannot be taken away from you,

Of course whethet it's worth it or not? ..... value judgment for the individual in each case. Several times, to me, it was worth it, but also several times it was not.

Glad you got it resolved - even if not quite as well as you hoped.