if you dont have any luck you could always sell the tft.. obviosly you will lose a bit of money from this so its only worth considering if you cant use it how it is... (if it was a much less £££ item i would consider this first as returning to OCUK i dont see as worth the effort)
did you try rubbin it gently (and i mean GENTLY)
Hi Quarryman
This is the page you need to look at:
http://www.tradingstandards.gov.uk/c...v0051-1111.txt
regards....Roger
Thanks. looks good, i'll use it when i speak to them.Hi Quarryman
This is the page you need to look at:
http://www.tradingstandards.gov.uk/...dv0051-1111.txt
regards....Roger
i did.did you try rubbin it gently (and i mean GENTLY)
now there's a finger mark on it.
i might ask O/cers do they know what's good for cleaning LCD screens when i'm on to them ------joke! nah its pretty spotless.
does that rubbing thing actually work?! can't seem to find anything on google that helps. It must be permanent, otherwise they'd probably get the consumer to do it rather than replace the screen.
You actually have to rub quite hard to try and get them to go away if they will (I have pressed REALLY hard on my laptop due to sheer annoyance (2 bright green ones next to each other just off centre) to try and remove them, didn't remove or danage the screen though).
NS
This whole "Am I entitled to a refund business" is murky, as there are several grounds for wanting a refund.Originally posted by quarryman
...
It seems i'm not entitled to return it?
...
Firstly, if something is DEFECTIVE you are ENTITLED to a refund, provided you act fast enough. The various Sale of Goods Acts make this clear. Goods must be of "satisfactory" quality and "fit for the purpose". The latter term does not apply here, and the first one is arguable. IN your opinion, one dead pixel is not "satisfactory" (and in mine too), but the manufacturer says it is. OcUK are merely piggy in the middle in this, as they are no doubt just applying the manufacturers standards. At the end of the day, whether one dead pixel is enough to make the product unsatisfatory or not is likely only to be resolved if such a case goes to court and, as far as I know, it hasn't yet.
If, under the SOGA, you find goods defective before you have accepted them, you have the right to reject the goods and claim your money back. It's called recission. However, notice I said "before you have accepted". THis is NOT the conventional definition of accpeted and does NOT relate to signing forthem at the door when the courier delivers. It is a legal term, and you can "accept" in several ways.
For a start, if you examine goods in a shop prior to purchase, you would not be entitled to subsequently reject the goods on the basis of any defects that said examination should have revealed. The moral of that is that IF you examine goods in a shop, do it properly, otherwise you are better off not examining them at all.
Another way to "accept" goods is to fail, within a "reasonable" period, to notify the supplier that you reject them. "Reasonable" is the term the Act uses and is not defined any more than that. Case law suggests, however, that the period is likelyt o depend somewhat on the nature of the goods, and in any event is unlikely to be more than a month, and in many cases, may be no more than a week. So, acting in time is essential.
If you are deemed to have accepted goods, you lose you right to a refund under the SOGA even iof the goods are subsequently found to be defective. You ARE, however, still entitled to repair and/or replacement, and possibly for up to 6 years. You are still protected, therefore, by the SOGA, but just not entitled to DEMAND a refund (though many shops will issue one voluntarily).
So, under the Sale of Goods Acts, you are entitled to reject unsatisfactory goods, AND you are entitled to your money back IN FULL, and it is trechnically the suppliers responsibility to pay for collection or to return your costs of delivery their faulty product back to them. This applies no matter what they put in their terms and conditions.
Under the SOGA, however, you are notentitled to return goods simply because you changed your mind and don't want them. If you decided you don't like that model, tough. You've bought it. The SOGA refers to goods that are, in one way or another, not of acceptable quality.
Next comes the Distances Selling Regulations (actually the Consumer Protection (Distance Selling) Regulations 2000). That DOES give you some rights to just change your mind, and return goods, faulty or not. This is the oft-mentioned 'cooling off' period. Under the DSR, you have 7 working days from the start of the day AFTER delivery to cancel. That means getting the cancellation off to them in that period (i.e. the critical time is when you send the cancellation, not when it is recieved) and, as trading standards said, not by phone, and preferably do get a proof of posting certificate (which is free, BTW) at the very least. Personally, for the extra few pence, I'd send it recorded. Again, personally, I'd "belt and braces" ...i.e. email, and then confirm by Recorded letter.
Your rights under the DSR do NOT include getting the cost of delivery back, nor do they include the cost of returning the goods. After all, it isn't the suppliers fault that you changed your mind, and they would be out of pocket if it did inlcude this.
Next comes refusing to accept goods back under the DSR if they've been opened. This is, as far as I can establish, a grey area. It seems pretty clear to me that refusing to accept back opened goods is not within the spirit of the DSR, but it may arguably within the letter of the law. The DSR actually says that the consumer will take take "reasonable care of them".
Does "take reasonable care of them" mean unopened? Personally, I would say it does not. But as they Act doesn't specifically nail down that point, it will remain an option open to suppliers to expoit until such time as someone takes such a case to court and a court rules on it. In the meantime, .......
The last point is that bothe SOGA and DSR apply to consumers. The logic is that businesses are better equipped to sort out contracts that work in their favour, so these laws give the consumer quite a degree of protection to balance that out. They do NOT apply, though, to a busniess buyer, so if you buy for your company, even if that company is a Sole Trader, you do NOT qualify for SOGA or DSR protection.
Sorry for the length of this, but it is a rather complicated and confusing area. I hope that's answered a few concerns.
That's very concise Saracen. Thanks.
It seems the the SOGA and DSR are somewhat contradictary in returning unwanted goods. On one hand the SOGA states if you accept the product its tough, its yours.
However the DSR allows that critical "cooling off" period. Since I only received the goods yesterday I feel I should be able to get it in writing to them within 7 days.
Its an unfortuate situation. To me, the product is unsatisfactory as it has one dead pixel. To others it wouldn't be and to the manufacturer its not. I understand the retailers position on this. Its very messy for them to see a perfectly good (as they see it) product come back in the door and give a refund. However (and this is the root of the problem) i paid £350 for the product I expect it to be absolutely perfect.
I also expect to be waiting weeks for the refund and to get a new one from a different supplier. This is very annoying as i have a perfectly good one in a box beside me with one tiny, miniscule little blue dot thats going to put me out of pocket just to send it back.
I'm off to ring them now. I'll will state that I acquired a TFT from someone else in the time since i ordered and i do not need this one.
will post back with news.
Ok was just onto sales there. Sorted out a little V.A.T problem and then moved onto the slight problem of sending the goods back.
Told me i had to ring returns which opens at 10am. I asked if it would be a problem and he said it should be fine.
*fingers crossed*
*should read whole threads before posting.
Last edited by Byatt; 12-11-2003 at 12:57 PM.
An update on this.
I contacted overclockers this morning and spoke to returns. I explained I received the goods and they are unused. I requested a refund based on the cooling off period. This seemed to be no problem and I was promptly emailed RMA details to return it.
I will send it the morning (at expense to myself). Should this be a problem now? Can I expect a full refund or is there a slim possibility they will receive and decide not to reimburse me?
I really hope i can resolve this.
Well, kinda I suppose, but they are offering different protections for different purposes. The SOGA doesn't give you any rights to return unwanted goods - just unsatisfactory ones. You have no right to return goods under SOGA just because you changed your mind, whereas you do have such a right under the DSR.Originally posted by quarryman
It seems the the SOGA and DSR are somewhat contradictary in returning unwanted goods. On one hand the SOGA states if you accept the product its tough, its yours.
However the DSR allows that critical "cooling off" period. Since I only received the goods yesterday I feel I should be able to get it in writing to them within 7 days.
I agree. Personally, even ONE dead pixel would drvie me up the way. As long as this situation remains, I'm not buying a TFT - other than in my laptop, and I have that for other reasons (like extensive business travel, usually to the USA). As it happens, I was lucky and amy Lappy doesn't have ay dead pixels.Originally posted by quarryman
Its an unfortuate situation. To me, the product is unsatisfactory as it has one dead pixel. To others it wouldn't be and to the manufacturer its not. I understand the retailers position on this.
But until a manufacturer can provide a defect-free TFT, or take it back if it isn't, they aren't gdtting my money. So I understand your position.
At the end of the day, I suspect that this is about manufacturing yields. If the manufacturers were to guarantee NO dead pixels, they'd have to throw way a MUCH higher percentage of their output, with rise in prices corresponding to a drop in productivity. So, everyone buying relatively cheap TFT's might find them double the price if manufacturers only shipped 100% perfect TFT's.
I guess you get what you pay for. Me ..... I want it perfect or I don't want it.
The fault is not OcUK's though, and you stand as much chance of getting a duff one from anyone else as you do from them. If you order elsewhere, you risk putting yourself in the same situation again ..... unless you specify on the order that it must have NO DEAD PIXELS and make that a condition of the order and of the essence".Originally posted by quarryman
I also expect to be waiting weeks for the refund and to get a new one from a different supplier. This is very annoying as i have a perfectly good one in a box beside me with one tiny, miniscule little blue dot thats going to put me out of pocket just to send it back.
If it is a condition of the order, and you use that phrase, then what you are saying is that the fact that there must be no dead pixels is absolutely fundamental to the order, and that if there are any dead pixels, the product will not be satisfactory and the breach will be sufficient to rescind the contract.
Whether a supplier will actually accept an order on that basis is, of course, entirely another matter. They may well decline the order.
As usual, all advice given here is given in a spirit of goodwill and,as I am NOT a lawyer, I am not responsible for what happens if you act on it. If in any doubt, check with a solicitor - otherwise, on your head be it.
Also, I doubt that you should have to wait weeks. I have no reason to suspect that OcUK would not process this in a normal and reasonably prompt manner. In any event, under the DSR, it must be within 30 days, and that period starts on the day notice is given of cancellation.
I'll point out once again, though, that under the terms of the DSR telephone conversations do NOT count as notice having been given. If you expect to rely on the DSR, you MUST give notice in writing or some other durable form (fax, email, letter etc) but NOT by phone, and within the mandated cooling off period. Legally, if all you have done is phone OcUK, you have NOT triggered your DSR cancellation rights. If that 7-day cooling off period expires, and you STILL haven't given some form of written notification, you will lose your DSR protection. Don't say you haven't been warned. Put it in writing. The 30-days maximum for refund also starts from the date of that formal cancellation, not your phone call. No matter what someone on the phone said about cancelling, should you not give formal notice, and the matter then comes before a manager, in another few days (and outside your 7 days cooling off period), and they overrule their subordinate, you have lost your DSR protection.
Thanks. I am returning the product today at a cost of E45.
When I rang OCUK they sent me out an email with RMA details, are you saying this is not enough? I will send out a letter of confirmation when i send the monitor.
You also stated that I should not have to pay a restocking fee. On the OcUK they say i do (15%). This is a lot of money based on the price of the screen. Can i argue this point with them?
quarry, i feel for ya, i hate it when you gotta return stuff and go through all the hassel
best of luck
Yes, I am definately saying that.Originally posted by quarryman
Thanks. I am returning the product today at a cost of E45.
When I rang OCUK they sent me out an email with RMA details, are you saying this is not enough? I will send out a letter of confirmation when i send the monitor.
There are two issues here. One is whether OcUK will issue an RMA and take unwanted goods back, the other is whether you have any rights under the DSR. The applicatable terms are different according to which situation you are in. For you to have DSR rights the notification of cancellation must not be by telephone.
So, the question here is ....... are OcUK taking the goods back because you've said you changed your mind, or because of your right to cancel the contract under the DSR.The Consumer Protection (Distance Selling) Regulations 2000 - Section 10 (3)
For the purposes of these Regulations, a notice of cancellation is a notice in writing or in another durable medium available and accessible to the supplier (or to the other person to whom it is given) which, however expressed, indicates the intention of the consumer to cancel the contract.
If it is the former, then :-
If, on the other hand, you are exercising your DSR right to cancel within 7 working days of delivery, then that notice must be served on the supplier in accordance with the terms of the DSR, and that precludes doing it by phone. If you have not properly served that DSR notice within the required time period, you will no longer be able to claim DSR right. And if that happens, it's 15% restocking fee time.
- They are under no obligation to do so.
- But they can if they wish.
- If they do, then their standard terms and conditions apply
- Those T&C's state there will be a 15% restocking fee, which is fair enough. You are, after all, asking them to do you a favour by taking back goods you've just changed your mind about, and this compensates them for their troubles.
However,Well, how do you read that?The Consumer Protection (Distance Selling) Regulations 2000
14. - (1) On the cancellation of a contract under regulation 10, the supplier shall reimburse any sum paid by or on behalf of the consumer under or in relation to the contract to the person by whom it was made free of any charge, less any charge made in accordance with paragraph (5).
(5) Subject to paragraphs (6) and (7), the supplier may make a charge, not exceeding the direct costs of recovering any goods supplied under the contract, where a term of the contract provides that the consumer must return any goods supplied if he cancels the contract under regulation 10 but the consumer does not comply with this provision or returns the goods at the expense of the supplier.
(6) Paragraph (5) shall not apply where -
(a) the consumer cancels in circumstances where he has the right to reject the goods under a term of the contract, including a term implied by virtue of any enactment, or
(b) the term requiring the consumer to return any goods supplied if he cancels the contract is an "unfair term" within the meaning of the Unfair Terms in Consumer Contracts Regulations 1999[10].
(7) Paragraph (5) shall not apply to the cost of recovering any goods which were supplied as substitutes for the goods ordered by the consumer.
My reading of it is that a re-stocking fee is a definite no-no if you return under your DSR rights. It is quite clear that any deductions are limited to the direct costs of getting their goods back if you do not return them, at your own cost. If you are returning the goods at your cost, and you are, then a Section 14 (5) charge does not apply,and even if it did, it would be limited to their actual cost of recovering the goods, not to any flat-rate charge or percentage unless that flat rate/percentage charge was less than the direct cost. But in any case, as you are paying for the return of the goods, it does not apply here providing you are doing so under your DSR rights and not under the suppliers standard T&C's for unwanted goods.
I have some formal training (and qualifications) in Consumer Law, but I am not a lawyer and my training was sufficiently long ago (20 years-ish) that the DSR had not even been thought of, and even the applicable SOGA was the original 1979 Act (with "merchantable " quality as the main criteria rather than the "satisfactory" quality stipulation introduced by the 1994 Sale and Supply of Gods Act). I've read the more recent legislation, including the DSR, and several legal commentaries on both but all the above is just my opinion, for what it's worth.
In my opinion, however, if you do not exercise your DSR rights (and that means a letter, fax, email, etc not a phone call), then the supplier will be perfectly within their rights to apply a 15% restocking fee. However, a phone call to Trading Standards or your Citizens Advice bureau should confirm it for you. Better yet, if you have a legal advice line available as part of your home or car insurance, ring them. That should get you qualified legal advice free.
But i am returning under the DSR, am i? I sent a formal letter stating that i wish to return the goods unused.Well, how do you read that?
My reading of it is that a re-stocking fee is a definite no-no if you return under your DSR rights.
However OCUK sent me an email with a doc attachment with their T&Cs on it. I had to fill in my name, address, contact number(s) and ............. signature
Am I now bound by it? ie since the T&Cs state the restocking fee this probably means i have to pay it. But there was no way i could sent the LCD back without following this procedure (fill out the form)! Am i sacrificing my rights under the DSR?!
I can't add attachments so i have no way of showing the form but i'd imagine you understand the kind of thing i'm talking about.
At this stage its out of my hands. Tonight it should be somewhere over the Irish sea (with a bit of luck it'll fall out - its insured). So by next week i'll either be
1. Out of pocket by €45 (delivery & no restocking fee)
2. Out of pocket by €160 (delivery & r/s fee)
3. something worse (they send it back to me, a my expense with dead pixel remaining.) this is very bad since i'll be back where i started but out of pocket by €90 maybe.
I'm sick of it now. All i want is a (perfectly working) LCD monitor. I never thought it would be this difficult.
i'll keep you posted.
thanks.
If you sent a formal letter cancelling the order, and did it within the mandatory period, then I'd say you're safe under the DSR. I thought you phoned only.
The supplier cannot seek to impose their T&C's over your statutory rights. I haven't checked the DSR for this, but much of the Consumer legislation actually makes it a CRIMINAL offence to attempt to do so.
Were it me, and I was returning something under the DSR, I would not accept a restocking fee. If a supplier attempted to impose one, I would point out the relevant section of the DSR, and if necessary, take small claims court action to recover my money, and also notify trading standards.
However, it is likely that this is just a crossed communication and that if you discuss it with the supplier, they'll understand where you are coming from.
However, you also need to understand that if you pick a legal fight with a supplier, you stand to lose any goodwill they may currently be showing you and outside of the DSR, you have no right to return goods just because you've changed your mind. And it seems that there could well be a dispute as to whether one defective pixel actually counts as defective or not.
So, if you chose to stand on your rights, be prepared for the possiblity that you could let yourself in for a courtroom fight. THAT is why I suggested getting formal legal advice. Getting legal on a company could backfire on you.
There is a difference between what your rights are in theory, and what they are in practice unless you are prepared to take court action if necessary. Do you want to go that far?
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