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Thread: News - Windows 8 preview take-up is relatively sluggish

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    Re: News - Windows 8 preview take-up is relatively sluggish

    Serious this debate is still on going?

    Anyone with some sense sees the following about Windows 8:
    Primary function: Tablets
    Secondary function: Laptops
    Tertiary function: Desktops

    This OS release was never meant for the main stream PC base, but they are hardly going to release a Tablet OS version. The whole point of this is to present a unified OS for near all device formats.

    This release was never meant for the main stream PC base and to consider other wise is a waste of your time. The only thing I can find this useful for is HTPCs where you want a simple interface for movies and such.
    If you really need to upgrade just disable metro and go back to classic desktop, simples.

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    Re: News - Windows 8 preview take-up is relatively sluggish

    'Anyone with sense' would know that a tablet won't be running a full ~20GB x86 OS, that laptops still happen to have a keyboard+mouse and that desktops are far from a small minority market, especially when you consider business use...

    I don't see why people think everyone should just be quiet about such a poor attempt at an OS; if you're happy to tag along and buy whatever MS tries to force down your throat, go fill your boots. Meanwhile, the rest of us will remain unsatisfied, will complain about it, and won't buy it; sales and feedback tell companies what they're doing wrong.

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    Re: News - Windows 8 preview take-up is relatively sluggish

    Time will tell. I spend the majority of my time using Windows 8 thesedays and... I like it. I really do.

    Is it perfect? No.

    Is it better than 7? Yes, and in a whole host of ways which are completely ignored by everybody because of the start screen. This is a shame but entirely predictable - big UI changes are contentious (I remember plenty of heated debate on the start bar change), especially when they're so radical and obviously in their infancy. Personally I believe things will improve and that MS are taking a long term view here but, just like the pain of the new driver model of Vista caused everything else to be ignored the same thing is happening here. In that case it paid off (big time) in making the OS far more stable by design but wasn't really seen till 7 came along (when many assumed 7 had introduced many of the features people suddenly loved).

    I think MS for the first time in a long time have a solid, long term, multiplatform goal and that they're actually willing to take the flak on the phone and desktop platforms to do it. That's brave. That's interesting. However, that means each of us needs to make our own mind up about how we deal with the short term - and perhaps for some that's sticking with Windows 7. I wouldn't blame you if you did - after all it's your choice - but for me i'm sold on Windows 8. Note i'm talking about the OS - not the 'metro' shell with it's faults (and it has them) - but the OS as a whole. The OS which is faster, lighter and improved in a whole raft of areas I care about away from Metro - in other words all the things people are ignoring. I see people talk about 8 as being 'bloated' or 'unusable' (around the web) and these things simple aren't true. Hyperbolic comments like this (and they are) make no sense to me - i'm getting lots of work done each day and the only two things that have bothered me about the new UI are:

    1. Lack of folders on the start screen for legacy apps. I'm hoping something will be done about this. Creating groups by hand helps but this isn't a solution.
    2. The wall of tiny icons for legacy apps which are hard to visually look through (I heard larger icons are in later builds).

    That's it. I don't care about the start button - and if I did I can add it to my taskbar quite easily. I don't care that shutdown has moved (start shutdown never made sense), nor do I think the Win 7 start menu was wonderful (actually I hated the stupid in-place expandomatic folders in a tiny area). I love the fact they've added a whole raft of 'power user' stuff in the form of keyboard shortcuts for all the stuff I do a lot and i've even adjusted to the categorised search (and of course the shortcuts that take you right to them). I like the ribbon on explorer (7 had NOTHING on it at all which was horrendous), the really neat file transfer graphs when copying, merging transfers into a single dialog, the task explorer, the speed of everything, the bootup time, the PIN login, the live account login, transferring settings automatically, the built in MSE, the dual monitor support (with discreet taskbars at long last), the fact my laptop 'cold' boots in 4 seconds to desktop with a gen 2 intel ssd etc etc. A myriad of improvements that add up to a great whole.

    Metro to me is the start screen - it's all I really see of it - and for the few seconds of each day I actually use it, it doesn't bother me (aside from the reasons mentioned).

    So hate me too folks because i'm willing to see where this goes (and am already enjoying it) and until the final build drops next month for MSDN users (I am one) I won't have seen the final desktop UI anyway.
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    Re: News - Windows 8 preview take-up is relatively sluggish

    Some good points there, many of the system improvements are overshadowed by the big shouty negatives. I've used AFAIK all public versions of 8 for about a couple of days each and I mostly agree with you, but while I used 7RC as a main OS right up until retail release (despite frequent BSODs), I still dislike using 8; I simply can't ignore Metro, while not perfect I like the Vista/7 Start menu, it's simple and it works well, and at least in my use it's a major, frequently used part of the UI. Metro is just a complete PITA if you use anything besides a web browser and some basic applications; it fails spectacularly with apps with lots of shortcuts/tools. And I'm not just having a go at MS, like I've said before I hate other touch-oriented UIs being used on PC OSes like Unity.

    But back to the first point, many people will avoid 8 completely because of the UI, missing out on the improvements.

    As much as I like to complain about Apple, they do have a far more sensible approach to OS/UI implementation; use a desktop one on their desktop/laptop systems, and use a touchscreen one on their touchscreen devices. Kind of makes sense doesn't it! MS's approach is akin to creating a vehicle that can be used as both a moped and a HGV; you end up with some monstrosity that does both poorly...

    As an aside, the marketing crap we've all heard about 8 'booting too fast' makes me laugh, especially when they mention about not being able to access BIOS setup - since when has OS boot speed impacted POST delay?

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    Re: News - Windows 8 preview take-up is relatively sluggish

    @ dangel

    I agree that people are condemning the whole because of a small part. All I hear people complain about is metro and it is well worth kicking and screaming about because Microsoft is shoehorning it into the OS as well as actively preventing start menu apps from working in the OS. It is a brazen act by Microsoft and it rightly has people annoyed, what is so hard about allowing people to choose how they'd like operate their system?

    The thing I see is Microsoft moving down the "Apple path" locking people into their system. They are transforming their OS into a walled garden by forcing people to have a Live account to access metro apps and making it difficult to use the OS without metro apps. People like the fact that you install Windows and then do what you like afterwards and now all of a sudden Microsoft don't seem happy with that, they want you to use their store and are making every effort to "encourage" you to do so by imposing metro on all users and preventing people from getting rid of metro.

    I agree that people shouldn't over extend their dislike of the OS to parts that are actually very well implemented but trying to emphasise that Metro isn't a big deal is only ignoring the contentious road Microsoft is headed down.

    If Stardock manage to implement an unobtrusive start menu along with the disabling of the log in screen then I'll probably get Windows 8, but that is only because of employee discount- if I didn't have a family member with access to discounted prices I wouldn't even be thinking about it. Unless Microsoft allow users to use their OS the way the users want, and not the way Microsoft want, I can only see this ending in failure for them.

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    Re: News - Windows 8 preview take-up is relatively sluggish

    AFAIK,you can upgrade from the Release Preview to the final version for around $40.

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    Re: News - Windows 8 preview take-up is relatively sluggish

    Quote Originally Posted by Noxvayl View Post
    @ dangel

    I agree that people are condemning the whole because of a small part. All I hear people complain about is metro and it is well worth kicking and screaming about because Microsoft is shoehorning it into the OS as well as actively preventing start menu apps from working in the OS. It is a brazen act by Microsoft and it rightly has people annoyed, what is so hard about allowing people to choose how they'd like operate their system?
    Because you can't be all things to everyone all of the time. I'm a developer and I face the same problem - "can't change anything because people know where it is/how to use it" followed by "you never change anything i'm bored with it". It's not brazen, it's damned brave - this doesn't mean I'm saying it's perfect, that it won't change or that you have to like it though.

    Quote Originally Posted by Noxvayl View Post
    The thing I see is Microsoft moving down the "Apple path" locking people into their system. They are transforming their OS into a walled garden by forcing people to have a Live account to access metro apps and making it difficult to use the OS without metro apps. People like the fact that you install Windows and then do what you like afterwards and now all of a sudden Microsoft don't seem happy with that, they want you to use their store and are making every effort to "encourage" you to do so by imposing metro on all users and preventing people from getting rid of metro.
    Realistically that doesn't ring true - MS will never go as far as Apple in that respect (and why would they - Google don't) and to complain about them 'imposing' things on you is an odd thing - of course they are, that's their job and it would be plain silly for them to not remove legacy code which is no longer needed by the OS (especially when focusing on performance so much so as they are doing now).

    Think of it this way - you can, in theory, run the same 'app' on you phone, tablet and desktop. That's quite a powerful thing, perhaps an appealing one - and that's where MS are going with this. I don't think the 'traditional' desktop is going away at all but I can see they'll blend in some areas or at least co-exist. I don't find myself (currently) restricted by this as a desktop user - in fact i'm saying I prefer things in the CP versus 7 *right now*. I find that an interesting realisation!

    Quote Originally Posted by Noxvayl View Post
    I agree that people shouldn't over extend their dislike of the OS to parts that are actually very well implemented but trying to emphasise that Metro isn't a big deal is only ignoring the contentious road Microsoft is headed down.
    It's not a big deal now, it may well be in the future - but then we can't evaluate what will be but only what is
    MS must change, on all fronts, they must adapt. They simply won't exist in the mobile/tablet space in the future an realistically both Apple and Google will be coming from the other direction (from tablets/phones) and aiming for the desktop. Ask me five years ago if MS would be capable of such 'contentious' changes and I would of laughed at you. I am intrigued by where things are going - I don't necessarily fear it.

    Quote Originally Posted by Noxvayl View Post
    If Stardock manage to implement an unobtrusive start menu along with the disabling of the log in screen then I'll probably get Windows 8, but that is only because of employee discount- if I didn't have a family member with access to discounted prices I wouldn't even be thinking about it. Unless Microsoft allow users to use their OS the way the users want, and not the way Microsoft want, I can only see this ending in failure for them.
    It's Windows, you can change stuff. Always. Heck, i've replaced the whole shell before, I use Directory Opus instead of explorer etc etc. I don't see that changing with 8 (except with RT and that's a blip until intel sort their platform out).
    The truth is, users generally don't have any idea about how they'd like things to change - we do surveys on our own software and people ask for features *already* implemented because they didn't know they were there. Ask them to design a new UI and they'll tweak the one they've got now. Users don't customise much at all - we know that few people bother to deviate away from what's there by default. People can't be bothered. Power users might but they (we) are a tiny fraction of the whole and they'll always be options for them (us).

    The 'end' for this is years off - MS is thinking about a roadmap going to 10/11 and beyond.

    Interesting to think if they'd not done Metro then we'd all be complaining about how it's just a service pack for 7, that they don't ever innovate or change anything or that they had no long term strategy to stay relevant in the changing landscape of the internet and devices to access it.

    For clarity - I'm interested in debate, not 'win' and nor am I selling anything here
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    Re: News - Windows 8 preview take-up is relatively sluggish

    Quote Originally Posted by wasabi View Post
    Some of the under-the-hood stuff is quite cool, but I tried Win 8 in a virtual box and got infuriated by Metro in 10 minutes. Never mind the one app at a time iphone/Android ripoff mindset, you couldn't even use the mouse as a virtual hand to drag the damned Metro menu screen which is just pap. UI is not for desktops, although i might give it a pop on my netbook if I get bored and the upgrade path from Xp is really cheap.

    Prediction - will make vista look like a roaring success, but the fault will be all MS and not Nvidia and printer manufacturers this time.

    Micrsoft need to remember their business users and forget chasing Android / Apple at home - they lost already..
    Could you actually imagine trying to drag the metro interface with a mouse, it would be ridiculous, hence why you can't do it. Instead you use the scroll-wheel or move the cursor to the edge of the screen. Seems logical enough to me.

    Has anybody considered that Microsoft might not be trying to upgrade Windows 7 users and that Windows 8 is for new pc users and people who want the interface?
    Currently studying: Electronic Engineering and Artificial Intelligence at the University of Southampton.

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    Re: News - Windows 8 preview take-up is relatively sluggish

    Quote Originally Posted by cameronlite View Post
    Has anybody considered that Microsoft might not be trying to upgrade Windows 7 users and that Windows 8 is for new pc users and people who want the interface?
    And XP folk too - in 2012 it's a horrible OS to live with anyway and the cheap upgrades are there for them too. Yes, most people will get the OS with a new PC, that is the Windows Way.
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    Re: News - Windows 8 preview take-up is relatively sluggish

    Quote Originally Posted by dangel View Post
    Because you can't be all things to everyone all of the time. I'm a developer and I face the same problem - "can't change anything because people know where it is/how to use it" followed by "you never change anything i'm bored with it". It's not brazen, it's damned brave - this doesn't mean I'm saying it's perfect, that it won't change or that you have to like it though.
    I am not expecting them to be all things to everyone all of the time, just pointing out that there are better ways to do it. Having a 24" screen being completely covered by a simple start menu is excessive use of screen space and having the apps do the same is unproductive, for 3"-5" phone screens it is a necessity but it is crazy to make a computer use one screen per application they run(legacy programs open with the desktop behind them making the Metro start menu pointless).

    Quote Originally Posted by dangel View Post
    Realistically that doesn't ring true - MS will never go as far as Apple in that respect (and why would they - Google don't) and to complain about them 'imposing' things on you is an odd thing - of course they are, that's their job and it would be plain silly for them to not remove legacy code which is no longer needed by the OS (especially when focusing on performance so much so as they are doing now).

    Think of it this way - you can, in theory, run the same 'app' on you phone, tablet and desktop. That's quite a powerful thing, perhaps an appealing one - and that's where MS are going with this. I don't think the 'traditional' desktop is going away at all but I can see they'll blend in some areas or at least co-exist. I don't find myself (currently) restricted by this as a desktop user - in fact i'm saying I prefer things in the CP versus 7 *right now*. I find that an interesting realisation!
    Google at least allows you to use different stores for apps that work on Android... Microsoft are making Metro apps exclusive to their store which is counter intuitive given the range of programs that run on Windows without Microsoft's direct control. That is identical to Apple, realistically they have already made it clear that this is the case.

    I don't mind them removing legacy code but I do mind them intentionally preventing people from circumventing their Metro design so they don't need to use Microsoft's store. I can't speak to their actual reason for removing start menu code but it seems suspicious that they'd only do it after producing a public beta.

    They also cite usage data showing people to be not using the start menu as a reason to blow it up to full screen size... their data indicated people were reducing the amount of clicks needed to open programs AND the preference for using a space saving task bar instead of a simple desktop icon to do so. The data they mention indicates people want something less intrusive and more functional, the opposite of what they have done. To me this is searching for justification for something they have already decided to do, not the other way around as they'd like us to believe.

    I can't speak for other people complaining about Metro but for me I'm just calling them on their stupidity based on the information they have provided.

    Quote Originally Posted by dangel View Post
    It's not a big deal now, it may well be in the future - but then we can't evaluate what will be but only what is
    MS must change, on all fronts, they must adapt. They simply won't exist in the mobile/tablet space in the future an realistically both Apple and Google will be coming from the other direction (from tablets/phones) and aiming for the desktop. Ask me five years ago if MS would be capable of such 'contentious' changes and I would of laughed at you. I am intrigued by where things are going - I don't necessarily fear it.
    I'm not intrigued because with the information they have provided their decisions seem crazy, and that is being generous. If they continue to look for justification for what they want to do then I can only expect a train crash because they are ignoring feedback and blindly walking their own path.

    Quote Originally Posted by dangel View Post
    It's Windows, you can change stuff. Always. Heck, i've replaced the whole shell before, I use Directory Opus instead of explorer etc etc. I don't see that changing with 8 (except with RT and that's a blip until intel sort their platform out).
    The truth is, users generally don't have any idea about how they'd like things to change - we do surveys on our own software and people ask for features *already* implemented because they didn't know they were there. Ask them to design a new UI and they'll tweak the one they've got now. Users don't customise much at all - we know that few people bother to deviate away from what's there by default. People can't be bothered. Power users might but they (we) are a tiny fraction of the whole and they'll always be options for them (us).
    I don't expect them to blindly follow the herd, so to speak, but to interpret data that shows that users are using something that takes up less space and provides them with quicker access to programs and then use that to justify a menu that goes against the users trend is backwards, literally.

    If the way people use your operating system shows they are doing as much as possible to reduce desktop space used and reduce the time taken to get to their programs then you should try to create something that helps them achieve that, not something that makes it more difficult for them.

    Quote Originally Posted by dangel View Post
    The 'end' for this is years off - MS is thinking about a roadmap going to 10/11 and beyond.
    What is 10/11 supposed to represent? In terms of years that is an outdated roadmap...

    Quote Originally Posted by dangel View Post
    Interesting to think if they'd not done Metro then we'd all be complaining about how it's just a service pack for 7, that they don't ever innovate or change anything or that they had no long term strategy to stay relevant in the changing landscape of the internet and devices to access it.
    That is assuming the only alternative is the same as Windows 7, what is to say they couldn't have removed the start menu and added items commonly used in the start menu directly to the task bar that people prefer to use? If that doesn't gell well with their integrated dreams they could of made metro tiles that sit on top of the desktop permanently, instead of on a full-screen page, and allow users to customise those.

    For me I started using W8 expecting Metro to be a permanent page of tiles that programs would then open on top of, a replacement for the desktop instead of a full-screen menu. I thought the desktop was a different type of mode for the OS and I would of liked that more than the full-screen menu because I could then have my second screen using the tiles permanently with each one updating with the various apps I run and have each program I open either pop-up on top of that page or onto my main monitor which is in desktop mode. That means each app doesn't take up a full screen when open and allows me to strategically place tiles to always be visible while I am working in another program so that having a weather app updates actually allows me to see what has changed rather than have to open a screen on top of the one I am working on in order to see the updated tile.

    I dislike their implementation of metro because it is, for my intended use and probably most uses, counter-productive and makes things more difficult; it doesn't allow you to monitor other apps while using an app at the same time which hinders PC use in my view.

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    Re: News - Windows 8 preview take-up is relatively sluggish

    Quote Originally Posted by Noxvayl View Post
    I am not expecting them to be all things to everyone all of the time, just pointing out that there are better ways to do it. Having a 24" screen being completely covered by a simple start menu is excessive use of screen space and having the apps do the same is unproductive, for 3"-5" phone screens it is a necessity but it is crazy to make a computer use one screen per application they run(legacy programs open with the desktop behind them making the Metro start menu pointless).
    How is it 'excessive'? I really don't get this - I open the start menu, I launch something, it goes away. The workflow is the same under both OS' the size of the 'menu' doesn't both me at all. In fact, the one in 7 is far too small and has serious problems with navigation (the kludge for folders). I'm sorry but I don't open the start menu in 7 and look at other things - my focus is on it till I find what I want and click it. Is it pefect? No, not by a mile. Is it completely unusable? No, not by a mile.


    Quote Originally Posted by Noxvayl View Post
    Google at least allows you to use different stores for apps that work on Android... Microsoft are making Metro apps exclusive to their store which is counter intuitive given the range of programs that run on Windows without Microsoft's direct control. That is identical to Apple, realistically they have already made it clear that this is the case.
    Whilst I agree it's the same as Apple in that respect I don't see it as counter intuitive!!? Obvious really. And I stand by the fact that Windows will remain far more open than Apple regardless.

    Quote Originally Posted by Noxvayl View Post
    I don't mind them removing legacy code but I do mind them intentionally preventing people from circumventing their Metro design so they don't need to use Microsoft's store. I can't speak to their actual reason for removing start menu code but it seems suspicious that they'd only do it after producing a public beta.
    Tin foil hat? Seriously, if you're optimizing code you don't leave large lumps of redundant crap in there - that's actually good practice for any developer. No conspiracy theory required, they just hadn't finished the OS!

    Quote Originally Posted by Noxvayl View Post
    What is 10/11 supposed to represent? In terms of years that is an outdated roadmap...
    Windows 10 and 11.. 9 is almost certainly in progress.


    Quote Originally Posted by Noxvayl View Post
    I dislike their implementation of metro because it is, for my intended use and probably most uses, counter-productive and makes things more difficult; it doesn't allow you to monitor other apps while using an app at the same time which hinders PC use in my view.
    I agree - I too don't like Metro apps in how they're implemented (and yes live tiles aren't 'visible' in real world use) but I really don't have major issues with the size of a start menu in day to day PC use (for the reasons already stated). Start, click, gone - and that's when i'm not just launching apps from the taskbar. And that's all of metro i really use in my working life, the rest of the time i'm enjoying the improvements to the traditional desktop. To recap, start menu not so much of a problem, agree that full screen metro apps aren't that useful (yet) on the desktop as implemented in the CP.
    Last edited by dangel; 12-07-2012 at 10:58 AM.
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    Re: News - Windows 8 preview take-up is relatively sluggish

    Quote Originally Posted by dangel View Post
    How is it 'excessive'? I really don't get this - I open the start menu, I launch something, it goes away. The workflow is the same under both OS' the size of the 'menu' doesn't both me at all. In fact, the one in 7 is far too small and has serious problems with navigation (the kludge for folders). I'm sorry but I don't open the start menu in 7 and look at other things - my focus is on it till I find what I want and click it. Is it pefect? No, not by a mile. Is it completely unusable? No, not by a mile.
    It is excessive by using up far more space than it needs to, that is the definition of the word... I wouldn't say it is unusable but it is less usable than the Windows 7 start menu by it's size alone; having to click and move your mouse across the entire screen to get to your app is far less ergonomic than a more efficiently sized menu that hugs the corner used to open it.

    I have removed the "kludge for folders" with StartMenuXP allowing the folders to automatically open as your cursor moves over them.

    Quote Originally Posted by dangel View Post
    Whilst I agree it's the same as Apple in that respect I don't see it as counter intuitive!!? Obvious really. And I stand by the fact that Windows will remain far more open than Apple regardless.
    The control Microsoft is exerting over the programs run on Windows has steadily increased since XP, the trend has been maintained by Microsoft and from their point of view it is beneficial to continue with that trend. I am unaware of any data that supports the assertion that they will keep their OS open...

    For me, and I suspect many others, it is yet another reason to dislike Microsoft and another tick in the box for Linux adoption.

    Quote Originally Posted by dangel View Post
    Tin foil hat? Seriously, if you're optimizing code you don't leave large lumps of redundant crap in there - that's actually good practice for any developer. No conspiracy theory required, they just hadn't finished the OS!
    Sounds like bad project management to be getting rid of old code at the end of the project. I would think Microsoft taking a less optimised approach to developing their OS is less likely than them trying to prevent people from getting around Metro.

    Quote Originally Posted by dangel View Post
    Windows 10 and 11.. 9 is almost certainly in progress.
    If they continue exerting more control over their OS and maintain the stupid idea of a unified User Interface across all devices then I will be surprised if they maintain market dominance, especially in the desktop space.

    Quote Originally Posted by dangel View Post
    I agree - I too don't like Metro apps in how they're implemented (and yes live tiles aren't 'visible' in real world use) but I really don't have major issues with the size of a start menu in day to day PC use (for the reasons already stated). Start, click, gone - and that's when i'm not just launching apps from the taskbar. And that's all of metro i really use in my working life, the rest of the time i'm enjoying the improvements to the traditional desktop. To recap, start menu not so much of a problem, agree that full screen metro apps aren't that useful (yet) on the desktop as implemented in the CP.
    The problem I have is that I did without using Metro all together when I was using the release preview. If what they have changed is something I want to avoid then they are doing something wrong. I am not alone in this view and from the amount of rage aimed at Microsoft I feel I am also in the majority with this. To completely ignore the majority of your beta testers and plough on with what they clearly dislike seems like a bad idea, and after releasing Windows 8 I don't expect Microsoft to change their minds.

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    Re: News - Windows 8 preview take-up is relatively sluggish

    My only real issue with the start screen in 8 is that it's so bloody difficult to open from the desktop. I still don't see what was wrong with having a regular-sized icon like the Windows Pearl and just repointing it so it opens the start screen. There's a few things that are also quite a bit harder to get to - not sure I've even found control panel yet - and nothing feels "intuitive" with a mouse; however, the way all the menus pop out of the edges of the screen feels incredibly similar to my playbook, and makes me wonder if the bezels on the Surface will be touch sensitive too, allowing you to swipe the menus from the edge of the screen. If that's the case I'm all for it on mobile devices - it's a properly intuitive way to open menus - but it just doesn't work very well on desktops...

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    Re: News - Windows 8 preview take-up is relatively sluggish

    Quote Originally Posted by scaryjim View Post
    My only real issue with the start screen in 8 is that it's so bloody difficult to open from the desktop. I still don't see what was wrong with having a regular-sized icon like the Windows Pearl and just repointing it so it opens the start screen. There's a few things that are also quite a bit harder to get to - not sure I've even found control panel yet - and nothing feels "intuitive" with a mouse; however, the way all the menus pop out of the edges of the screen feels incredibly similar to my playbook, and makes me wonder if the bezels on the Surface will be touch sensitive too, allowing you to swipe the menus from the edge of the screen. If that's the case I'm all for it on mobile devices - it's a properly intuitive way to open menus - but it just doesn't work very well on desktops...
    This! Its just to hard to use with a mouse. I would have to sit down with a non-techy user and explain how to use it with a mouse. How is this a good idea???

    BTW - I like the windows 7 start menu and find it the best of the bunch. I can open document folder, shutdown the pc or start typing a program name and launch it with a few clicks/key presses all without it obscuring my current applications. How is metro an improvement on this...
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    Re: News - Windows 8 preview take-up is relatively sluggish

    Quote Originally Posted by cheesemp View Post
    This! Its just to hard to use with a mouse. I would have to sit down with a non-techy user and explain how to use it with a mouse. How is this a good idea???

    BTW - I like the windows 7 start menu and find it the best of the bunch. I can open document folder, shutdown the pc or start typing a program name and launch it with a few clicks/key presses all without it obscuring my current applications. How is metro an improvement on this...
    Granted, the metro start menu isn't an improvement, however it's certainly no worse. The thing that's puzzling me is, why do you want to see you other application when opening a new one?

    The Metro start menu is no worse for desktop users and significantly better for touch users. Win Win.
    Currently studying: Electronic Engineering and Artificial Intelligence at the University of Southampton.

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    Re: News - Windows 8 preview take-up is relatively sluggish

    Quote Originally Posted by Noxvayl View Post
    It is excessive by using up far more space than it needs to, that is the definition of the word... I wouldn't say it is unusable but it is less usable than the Windows 7 start menu by it's size alone; having to click and move your mouse across the entire screen to get to your app is far less ergonomic than a more efficiently sized menu that hugs the corner used to open it.
    And who defines the amount of space that's required? What's the metric for when it becomes 'excessive' to your mind? I'm well aware what the word means it's just that I'm pointing out a salient truth - neither what you are I say makes it 'fact' over 'opinion'. Aside from the reasons I've already pointed out I don't find it any less usable, and in some areas one could argue better (as indicated by your workaround for it's shortcomings which is still horrible and doesn't fix the overall problem with lack of space). Do you really (in both OS') spend all your time trawling round with the mouse on the start menu/start screen? 99% of the time everybody else is pinning and using the search. Every time I show someone they can 'just type' into the 7 start menu it's like watching dawn breaking



    Quote Originally Posted by Noxvayl View Post
    The control Microsoft is exerting over the programs run on Windows has steadily increased since XP, the trend has been maintained by Microsoft and from their point of view it is beneficial to continue with that trend. I am unaware of any data that supports the assertion that they will keep their OS open...

    For me, and I suspect many others, it is yet another reason to dislike Microsoft and another tick in the box for Linux adoption.
    I'm sorry but this is coming off a sheer paranoia - MS isn't 'the man' and he isn't 'out to get you' - it's a large corp like any other with a desire to make money not "control" stuff (beyond what makes sense for commercial gain) just for the sheer hell of it all. Adding security to an OS which had none is not a control mechanism - and i'm struggling to work out what else you might be eluding to with "increased since XP"? The reality is that "many others" ignore linux and will continue to do so (on the desktop) because it's essentially gone nowhere in the last decade and there's no indication (or reason) why that will change. Fanciful but not true. Strangely enough i'd prefer it if MS had a competitor in that sphere but OSX isn't it either and in reality the only thing forcing change on them now is the relatively new markets for tablets and modern smartphones (where they are basically not really in the game). Hence, the strategy they're taking makes a lot of sense - a huge gamble maybe - but one that they're really not left with any choice but to take. The alternative is to stagnate, whither and die.


    Quote Originally Posted by Noxvayl View Post
    Sounds like bad project management to be getting rid of old code at the end of the project. I would think Microsoft taking a less optimised approach to developing their OS is less likely than them trying to prevent people from getting around Metro.
    Have you done much dev work? It doesn't sound like it, and again I fear your choosing to see something that fits your view rather than being realistic. I will guarantee you that in the final build someone will still be able to create a start menu that works like XP, or Windows 2000 or however far back you wish to go.


    Quote Originally Posted by Noxvayl View Post
    ...maintain the stupid idea of a unified User Interface across all devices then I will be surprised if they maintain market dominance, especially in the desktop space.
    The unified UI thing is more interesting and i'm not sure if i'd be quite so dismissive. Doesn't work well in the CP for sure (in a whole heap of areas) but having commonality on 4 platforms isn't necessarily a bad thing and i'm very interested to see where it leads.


    Quote Originally Posted by Noxvayl View Post
    The problem I have is that I did without using Metro all together when I was using the release preview. If what they have changed is something I want to avoid then they are doing something wrong. I am not alone in this view and from the amount of rage aimed at Microsoft I feel I am also in the majority with this. To completely ignore the majority of your beta testers and plough on with what they clearly dislike seems like a bad idea, and after releasing Windows 8 I don't expect Microsoft to change their minds.
    See, I don't have a problem with no really using it at all - in fact, i'm pointing out that i'm doing just that (the apps anyway) and that that's why I'm OK with things day to day. There's certainly a lot of noise on the internet about the start menu alone but we'll have to wait for two things to see whether the majority agrees - first, how the release version looks, works and feels (because MS have yet to merge in all their changes into a publically available build) and second, how it sells. I'm still open minded about it (perhaps i'm special and all alone but I doubt it) and I rather like change. I also recognize how long term software projects work, how you can't have everything at once and that MS are well known for playing the 'long game'. For some time they've lacked a unified strategy, completely missed emerging markets and failed to innovate in all sorts of areas. That needs fixing, that will be painful.

    As a sidenote the first time I picked up a Windows Phone I was impressed massively - not because it was better than my Android device, but because it was utterly *different*. Different from the iPhone too. I didn't have to like it to see that - it was obviously innovative. Interesting. Not really the MS I thought I knew.
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