Features - QOTW: Does Windows Phone stand a chance?

[TheAnimus]

Windows Phone will never be more than a niche because as a devleoper, it sucks to me. I don't use visual studio, I don't want to ground up write an app to a custom phone API, and I don't want to be chained to the way Microsoft wants to sell on their store. It isn't developer friendly, and without market adoption it doesn't have potential profits to attract devs either.

You don't have to use Visual Studio. But it is the best IDE by a long shot when combined with ReSharper and C#, nothing comes close from productivity.

You obviously haven't looked at it, which given their market share is fair, and given the fact you don't want to use visual studio would suggest that you don't do much on the MS platform. (side note, MS should just buy JetBrains, without InteliJ I wouldn't do java, no amount of money is enough to use eclipse).

Also by Custom API, I take it your wanting to program against some other custom API. Which is fine and dandy, but there are always limitations. You have to be mindful. Without going language Jihad, the .Net stack is arguably the best of the hybrids for writing code quickly, maintainable with good performance. I was asked the cost of porting something to Andriod, by the time I'd found some alternatives for TPL and RX we realised it was just too damned slow to run. This was a desktop application.

You talk about ubuntu phone, but right now, today, I've got code base on a phone which is 80% of the same on a desktop. The only other 20% is the UI. The UI is completely differen't because the desktop has a keyboard and the phones just a few inches. You can't get more re-use than that.

As for dockables, well we've seen with the padphone how badly that concept works.

first class web apps or qt / qml, apps I write for it can go anywhere

Now I know your trolling. Find me one HTML5 app on Play with 4 stars or more. People say "oh facebook messed up" well, find one good example of it. Then compare that with the number of non-html5 apps that have 4+ stars. QT is an odd one, again, ask someone the worst thing about Skype? However I have actually seen OK stuff made in QT, just not complex. The other problem is, from a platform point of view, why embrace it? Each platform has certain features, the way notifications are handled, the idea of widgets/live tiles/static icons. You have to handle these still. Then come the market place rules, these are not as simple as Apple or Google, these are per region. Oh you want to use those APIs in your app? Sorry, can't be sold in India or UAE (I try to keep sales relivent in the BRICs as a lets no go bust tomorrow strat).

You trivialise it to be about frameworks, its not, it's more complex than that.

Also, since Ubuntu phone can plug into screens and play full desktop

But who is really wanting to write code to do that? Surely it would be a seperate App, its a seperate concern after all. Would you say MainWindow would be SOLID across the two paradigms? (I mean SOLID principles)

We just need to look at the windows RT tablet to see how confused that area is. Frankly the Surface RT I have might as well be called the Office 2013 fondle. That is its main use. Yet you know there are TWO versions of one note? Why? Because neither one is quite right for any scenario, you pick the one you want best. My point is here that sure, there might be common code underneeth (there isn't much actually, as much of the code is just in UI functions) but it is so differen't between, I think it is much more business class than even Windows Phone (I imagine Microsoft will eventually make WP8.5 allow the plugin-get-full-windows experience with Office RT at some point, but who knows when they will get around to that).

I see nothing at all asking for Ubuntu's Ideas. In fact I see quite the opposite. They as a company have lost all street credibility, their spyware enriched OS is a bad a choice as a toolbar for IE. The idea of the firefox OS is pointless as even the Chrome store doesn't get a mention, despite being something that is here today, already working cross device.

We do, however, see a big push towards 'the cloud' as this ultimate panacea of synchronisation. Rather than the idea of transfering cost of technology for a desk to the phone. Why not just having everything synced together? I mean the desk is still going to need KVM right? Why not spend the extra £50 an through in a terminal too? Heck I'd imagine 50+% of all work computers could be simply a Pi, if it wasn't for the OS being slow (better lately!) and the lack of any powerful office suite.

I suppose I am saying Ubuntu are really making a portable betamax player, it might be impressive that they've been able to do some of it, but why on earth would that be someones workflow.

[Saracen]

Out of interest Saracen, what would you want from a recipe app, rather than a website?

This isn't wanting an exhustive list, just with my code monkey hat on, what is wrong with a HTML website? When cooking I find myself generally in a place with wifi, or at the very least mobile service, so offline isn't a worry?

.....

Essentially, control. And for me, yes, offline is fundamental. I don't want to be halfway through cooking dinner when my ISP chooses to drop my connection for an hour.

But by control, I am primarily talking about MY recipes, not ones stuck on there by other people. I need to be able to add new recipes when I come across them, or adapt existing ones if I change or refine it.

Obviously, it needs the basics, like ingredients, method, times/tempd etc, but it would also be helpful to be able to build a menu for a period, say a week, and to generate a shopping list of ingredients needed.

That shopping list needs to be easily editable, too, and ease of use is critical. If it's too fiddly or fussy in the UI, it's going to end up more of a pain than a help, and won't get used.

And if it could be done in a sleek way, I'd find it useful if that shopping list could refer to a pre-defined list of 'stock' ingredients, and perhaps flag them as needed without actually adding them to the list. But I need to be the one that determines what is or isn't 'stock'.

For instance, if making a spag-bol, I would want carrots on the shopping list, but not salt, pepper and olive oil.

And by the way, I have an Android app that gives me most of what I want, and a fair bit I don't need.

But basically, it's a combination of the kind of recipe book most cooks have, but in electronic form. And with that shopping list type of feature as well.

Other apps I'd use include what boils down to an inventory list of books, another of CDs, etc. I have that on PC, and syncing between my PC and my phone/tablet does interest me, but syncing to a website or to cloud storage does not. I probably don't represent the mass market, but I have no interest at all in syncing or storing any data online, on things like Dropbox, or various "drive" products, free or chargeable.

In all honesty, I'm better off with a recipe book on a tablet, which is precisely where it is. The main reason, maybe the only one, for having it on a phone is that I might have a phone with me on a shopping trip, but I'm not likely to be lugging a tablet.

Much the same type of logic applies to a CD or book inventory app. Mainly, I want those on a PC database (and they are), and the point of phone access is for me to be able to check what's in my collection while out shopping. So syncing to my master database is the point of having that on a phone.

To be honest, I could do anything I want from those apps on a PDA, and I don't need a smartphone. But, try finding much choice of PDA on the market these days. Smartphones have pretty much killed them. But for my purposes, I don't even need wifi and certainly don't want to be paying mobile data rates when the data I want is MY data, sync'd from MY PC.

But I caution you, Animus, even in code monkey hat, I'm not a good person to ask about provide any form of market research feedback on smartphones, because I'm not a fan of them.

[kalniel]

But I caution you, Animus, even in code monkey hat, I'm not a good person to ask about provide any form of market research feedback on smartphones, because I'm not a fan of them.

That's what makes you so suitable. Market research would be rubbish if it only looked at people who were already fans of existing products.
And long gone are the days when we thought people wouldn't buy a bit of hardware for some killer application.

[chates]

I've just been given an 820 to evaluate for my company as an alternative to our blackberry's and so far I've been impressed, it looks like it should do the business thing really well. THe interface is very different and wil take a bit of getting used to but I think its good. There's no point in being another OS like Android/iOS, its refreshing and the devices are really smart, the screen changes are slick and its a powerful tool, certainly for business. I think it might take a while but I reckon they could grab a decent chunk of market share, will it be as big as Android? Not sure about that but it'll be interesting to watch it develop!

[george1979]

Windows Phone is an excellent OS that deserves to be successful. Its a joy to use, so simple but very effective, not to mention its the first mobile OS since apple's to actually do something different with the UI.
I still never understand the whole app store argument. So there are 'only' 100,000 apps on it - so what? There may well be a few apps that are useful that you can't get on WP but its hardly the end of the bloody world. The vast majority of apps are just throwaway crap that people use a few times then never look at again. Also you can probably carry out the same function using the web browser in a lot of cases.

I only use a few apps regularly and all of them could be done using the browser (train times, cinema listings, guardian news etc).

[TheAnimus]

In all honesty, I'm better off with a recipe book on a tablet, which is precisely where it is. The main reason, maybe the only one, for having it on a phone is that I might have a phone with me on a shopping trip, but I'm not likely to be lugging a tablet.

Which is where some kind of syncing thing would be ace. The 'cloud' is often used just because it's so easy. Whilst we've seen ****ups from one that means I'd never use them, because simply it implied a gaping security design, not all are like that. Aditionally you could have a cloud provider like Mega, which is going to do everything it can to not understand the content your hosting. Obviously whilst he is doing it for piracy, some companies do similar. One found that data which couldn't be taken offsite was OK, because AES 4048, the private key never left the site!

That's what makes you so suitable. Market research would be rubbish if it only looked at people who were already fans of existing products.
And long gone are the days when we thought people wouldn't buy a bit of hardware for some killer application.

Well yes and no. He isn't what I'd call low hanging fruit.

Your ideal customer is someone who will give you all the information about them, constantly use the thing "on line", whilst selling it heavily to their friends.

Not someone that realises they are the product

[shaithis]

Microsoft are very good at catching up in a market. As much as I think android is top dog at the moment, you cannot wright MS off. The apps will soon explode, thanks to MUI and the cheap price Windows 8 was marketed for....the times ahead are interesting to say the least.

Personally, I think Apple will end up suffering the most. They have already been battered by Android and Samsung and now Microsoft are starting to throw their weight around.

[Shooty*]

I have had my Nokia Lumia 820 for over a month now, and don't regret getting a Windows phone for a second. I am, however, amazed that Android has such a high market share.

my last phone was an HTC Desire (original, not HD or anything). It was fine. And, to be honest, i'm not a massive app person on phones: i save that for my ipad. The windows phone sounds good when making calls, the linking of various phone books is a little confusiing at first, but pretty handy once you get the hang of it, and overall; Yeah, i like it lots.

[Zanny]

You don't have to use Visual Studio. But it is the best IDE by a long shot when combined with ReSharper and C#, nothing comes close from productivity.

You obviously haven't looked at it, which given their market share is fair, and given the fact you don't want to use visual studio would suggest that you don't do much on the MS platform. (side note, MS should just buy JetBrains, without InteliJ I wouldn't do java, no amount of money is enough to use eclipse).

Also by Custom API, I take it your wanting to program against some other custom API. Which is fine and dandy, but there are always limitations. You have to be mindful. Without going language Jihad, the .Net stack is arguably the best of the hybrids for writing code quickly, maintainable with good performance. I was asked the cost of porting something to Andriod, by the time I'd found some alternatives for TPL and RX we realised it was just too damned slow to run. This was a desktop application.

You talk about ubuntu phone, but right now, today, I've got code base on a phone which is 80% of the same on a desktop. The only other 20% is the UI. The UI is completely differen't because the desktop has a keyboard and the phones just a few inches. You can't get more re-use than that.

As for dockables, well we've seen with the padphone how badly that concept works.

By custom API, I mean learning another Android API. I already know that one, and would rather not spend weeks or months figuring all the finalities of another platform out. The point of Ubuntu phone is that if you have a qml UI for it, you should be able to use the native qt functionality that already abstracts platform to avoid writing to a custom API. And I'm curious what platforms your project targets, because if you target Android it has an entirely different build procedure to go against than a desktop Java app. I would absolutely expect anyone trying to make a multi-platform app to have a cross platform base with API and UI glue on top, I'm just saying I'd rather spend as little time as possible on that glue.

Find me one HTML5 app on Play with 4 stars or more. People say "oh facebook messed up" well, find one good example of it. Then compare that with the number of non-html5 apps that have 4+ stars. QT is an odd one, again, ask someone the worst thing about Skype? However I have actually seen OK stuff made in QT, just not complex. The other problem is, from a platform point of view, why embrace it? Each platform has certain features, the way notifications are handled, the idea of widgets/live tiles/static icons. You have to handle these still. Then come the market place rules, these are not as simple as Apple or Google, these are per region. Oh you want to use those APIs in your app? Sorry, can't be sold in India or UAE (I try to keep sales relivent in the BRICs as a lets no go bust tomorrow strat).

I'd say the worst thing about Skype is that it encrypts the binary and has no documentation or easy way to tell what its sending over the network, and has a proven track record of allowing wiretaps and foreign spying on calls. I never took issue with the qt based interface on Linux - it isn't very intuitive, but that is the fault of the designers more than anything. The Windows interface is rubbish, but that is Microsoft's doing. Haven't had experience with the Mac one.

I like Google Docs, Google Drive, Dropbox, the new Mega is ok, Youtube has some nice features, and they are all web apps. The native clients Google uses are wrapper apps they have had for a while, but web apps are still first and foremost websites you just treat like applications. html5 has plenty of potential, I just don't think it's inefficiencies make it viable in a lot of application domains.

But who is really wanting to write code to do that? Surely it would be a seperate App, its a seperate concern after all. Would you say MainWindow would be SOLID across the two paradigms? (I mean SOLID principles)

We just need to look at the windows RT tablet to see how confused that area is. Frankly the Surface RT I have might as well be called the Office 2013 fondle. That is its main use. Yet you know there are TWO versions of one note? Why? Because neither one is quite right for any scenario, you pick the one you want best. My point is here that sure, there might be common code underneeth (there isn't much actually, as much of the code is just in UI functions) but it is so differen't between, I think it is much more business class than even Windows Phone (I imagine Microsoft will eventually make WP8.5 allow the plugin-get-full-windows experience with Office RT at some point, but who knows when they will get around to that).

A lot of the things you do on small touch screens you do on big hardware devices. Read email, read websites, compose emails / twitter, watch video, upload / share pictures. If you have a bluetooth keyboard, you can compose documents fairly well on a mobile form factor if you don't misspell a lot so you don't have to constantly read the document you write. Even then, 7 - 10" tablets are the perfect size for document reading I think, with really high PPI at least. That class of applications encompasses 99% of the use cases of an average joe consumer, and having one base app that has two interfaces, on a powerful enough mobile device to just plug in or miracast into displays / keyboards / mice / headsets / etc for productivity, will almost certainly be the only computer 95% of the target audience of consumers will want computing devices for. For business, having one device works really well too, you can get one phone computer from the company that allows communication anywhere, you can take your work with you, and plug into any terminal in the office to actually do work. The point is that on one device you can preserve environments and workflows across the form factor fold. The difference is that Windows RT (and 8) don't try to discretize a mobile and working UI, because you can run apps on either, for either, and it makes the fullscreen force touch nonsense rubbish on the destkop and the traditional workflows rubbish on the go. The reason I like Ubuntu phone is that (I hope) you don't run the desktop apps when you don't have a desktop environment, and vice versa. To run any application in either, I hope Canonical mandates different interfaces to fit different use cases.

I see nothing at all asking for Ubuntu's Ideas. In fact I see quite the opposite. They as a company have lost all street credibility, their spyware enriched OS is a bad a choice as a toolbar for IE. The idea of the firefox OS is pointless as even the Chrome store doesn't get a mention, despite being something that is here today, already working cross device.

We do, however, see a big push towards 'the cloud' as this ultimate panacea of synchronisation. Rather than the idea of transfering cost of technology for a desk to the phone. Why not just having everything synced together? I mean the desk is still going to need KVM right? Why not spend the extra £50 an through in a terminal too? Heck I'd imagine 50+% of all work computers could be simply a Pi, if it wasn't for the OS being slow (better lately!) and the lack of any powerful office suite.

I suppose I am saying Ubuntu are really making a portable betamax player, it might be impressive that they've been able to do some of it, but why on earth would that be someones workflow.

I don't trust the cloud, and many people don't. Internet speeds aren't good enough to keep everything remote. They might be, but I see device power and data density getting much higher faster than the US can overcome the monopolistic mess that is American networking. This is coming from someone in the US, though - the internet here is awful, so I can't use the cloud. Sadly, while I would wish the rest of the world would move on and leave us in the dust, we still have way too much influence in hardware adoption to let that major shift happen without us getting our crap in gear and opening up wireless spectrum and laying some fiber lines.

And I don't much like Canonical either, to be honest. I just think the platform is a good idea. It is where computing will be in 3 - 5 years, people won't look at laptops anymore, and you have one device you connect to anything you need that has the horsepower to run it and use peripherals for a tiny pocket computer that does everything and is the only device for 90% of consumers. I'll still have beefy desktops for compiling and rendering, but most won't need that, and the phone will be enough.

[Saracen]

That's what makes you so suitable. Market research would be rubbish if it only looked at people who were already fans of existing products.
And long gone are the days when we thought people wouldn't buy a bit of hardware for some killer application.

As Animus said, yes and no. I take your point, that if you want to find out why people don't buy your product, ask those that don't, not those that do, or you just preach to the choir.

What I was getting at, though, when I said "not a fan" was really saying that I not only have no need for a smartphone, but no desire for one. And not only no desire for one, but plenty of reasons for actively not wanting one that, so far at least, has outweighed the uses I would have for one.

[Saracen]

....

Well yes and no. He isn't what I'd call low hanging fruit.

Your ideal customer is someone who will give you all the information about them, constantly use the thing "on line", whilst selling it heavily to their friends.

Not someone that realises they are the product

That pretty much nails it. I don't want to be the product, and actively and aggressively resent being it.

One of my personal pet detestations is personalised and targeted unsolicited marketing, in just about all it's forms. The worst, by a country mile, is pestering phone calls. BT lost my phone business (personal and business, landline and mobile) about 15 years ago because they would not stop phoning me at home, despite repeated requests not to, and two letters to Sir Iain Vallance about it, until finally I lost my temper with one such marketing caller and treated the poor cow to about 5 minutes of non-stop invective, much of it liberally interspersed with expletives, which would no doubt hsve given the bleep mschine a nervous breakdown if they had one.

I've said more thsn a few times in discussions, and have told various companies I do business with, that I don't want unsolicited marketing communications from anybody, about anything, under any circumstances. They usually think they have some information that's in my best interest to have, some irresistible offer, and that that justifies contacting me even if I've said I don't want to be contacted.

But they're wrong.

If BT were ringing me to tell me they have an offer of free unlimited phone and broadband for the rest of my life, I would STILL not want to be pestered. They can give their offer to someone else, and leave me the *bleep* alone.

When I say I don't want to be marketed at by unsolicited marketing, I really mean it. And I really don't care who they are or what the offer is, I do not want to be bothered.

There's a local pizza firm I order from once a month or so. Have done for years. So, I gave them a mobile number a while back, for delivery purposes, and then I start getting pestered with text messages with offers. So I had a quite and polite, but very firm word, asking them to stop. They said they'll sort it and get my number deleted. If I get any more such messages, they've had the last puzza order they will EVER get from me. I won't keep asking like I did with BT. These days, I don't have the patience or tolerance. I'll just get a new phone number .... and a new pizza supplier, who will not, under any circumstances, get my phone number.

So, given that that's how strongly I feel about intrusive marketing, guess how I feel about, for example, geo-targetted advertising, on a smartphone, because the device is snopping on my location and sending me adverts based on it. About the only way I can be sure a GPS chip is not tracking my location and uploading it is to not carry anything with both a GPS capability and a communications link.

Personalky, I value my privacy VERY highly, and short of a radical redefinition of who has control over what in terms of marketing data, it's going to take one hell of a killer feature(s) on a smartphone to get me to carry one, even if someone gave me one.

Anyone know if you can still use a smartphone as an offline PDA if you remove the SIM card. That'd work for me,

And that's why I'm not a good candidate for giving feedback on desirable features in phone apps. I'm far from convinced I'll ever find anything powerful enough to overcome my reservations. Right now, my phone is probably one of the dumbest phones on the planet, and while it can manage a text message, just about, that's the extent of its cleverness. If it comes to a choice of carrying a smartphone or not carrying a cellular phone at all, because I can't buy a stupid phone next time I need one, I'd probably choose to carry no phone at all.

For me, the main point of a mobile phone is for emergencies, and to allow immediate family and close friends to get me when I'm out and about. It is emphatically not to allow companies to market to me 24/7/365, but that seems to be the driving force behind many aspects of smartphones. It's a Faustian pact - we get a few slick new gizmos to play with, and we sell, no make that give away, any chance of remaining out of corporate databases for it. They even get many of us to pay daft sums for the latest must-have designer fashion accessory version of the contraptions. Someone, in a boardroom somewhere, must really be having a good chuckle over that.

[TooNice]

There may well be a few apps that are useful that you can't get on WP but its hardly the end of the bloody world.

To me, the whole point of having a smartphone is to run apps that I consider useful. It might not be the "end of the world", but what's the point in getting a product that is sub-optimal for oneself, if there are alternatives which offers a better match?

[3dcandy]

Saracen - just tried removing SIM card from my Galaxy S3 - erm interesting, very few apps including the calendar etc. work with no SIM card...

[cameronlite]

Saracen, I can confirm that my Windows 7.5 phone definitely works without a SIM just fine.

[badass]

To me, the whole point of having a smartphone is to run apps that I consider useful. It might not be the "end of the world", but what's the point in getting a product that is sub-optimal for oneself, if there are alternatives which offers a better match?

Unfortunately, for most people, the primary reason they have a smartphone is so they can bang on endlessly about features and how it's better than xyz other device.

By far the most popular smartphone operating systems are iOS and Android and both are utter garbage because they prioritise features and gimmicks over battery life, reliability and working as intended.
The only reason I exclude Windows Phone is that I have not had to suffer it (yet). I'm sure it'll have the same kind of issues.
I don't blame the companies for doing this either. They produce a product that sells and the masses are so stupid that they would rather have a device that doesn't work properly in that it is unstable, often does stupid things that you wouldn't expect and has short battery life. Provided it is thin, has over 150,000,000,000,000 apps (whether they have a use for them or not) and has OMG quad core 2GB RAM specs or "don't you love it when it just works" smugness even though it simply doesn't "just work"

[3dcandy]

Unfortunately, for most people, the primary reason they have a smartphone is so they can bang on endlessly about features and how it's better than xyz other device.

By far the most popular smartphone operating systems are iOS and Android and both are utter garbage because they prioritise features and gimmicks over battery life, reliability and working as intended.
The only reason I exclude Windows Phone is that I have not had to suffer it (yet). I'm sure it'll have the same kind of issues.
I don't blame the companies for doing this either. They produce a product that sells and the masses are so stupid that they would rather have a device that doesn't work properly in that it is unstable, often does stupid things that you wouldn't expect and has short battery life. Provided it is thin, has over 150,000,000,000,000 apps (whether they have a use for them or not) and has OMG quad core 2GB RAM specs or "don't you love it when it just works" smugness even though it simply doesn't "just work"

I have to disagree - my Galaxy S3 crashes rarely, has fair battery life (1 charge a day but I do use it a lot) and has a decent camera, maps and does what I want. Bear in mind that I do use wireless, bluetooth, gps and the screen throughout the day. Perhaps some people would class that battery life as dismal but I'm happy