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Thread: News - Windows 8.1 will have a Start Screen button

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    Re: News - Windows 8.1 will have a Start Screen button

    Quote Originally Posted by Willzzz View Post
    Well in that case the objection is even more silly, you don't even need to go into the dreaded MUI in order to launch the program.It's like installing a program in Win7 and it creates a shortcut on the desktop instead of the start menu. OMG THE START MENU IS BORKEN!!!!!! If you want a shortcut on the start screen JUST ADD ONE.
    Actually my dear sir, your original question was about apps that didn't seem to be compatible with MUI, hence the example of the Logitech software (and yes, this was designed for Windows7, so I'm a bit confused why it does what it does)
    Quote Originally Posted by Biscuit View Post
    It completely impairs the entire screen with what is basically overgrown icons. I don't need to slide in and out of a full screen UI all the time when a tiny little menu will suffice. It simply is not more effective for use with the mouse.
    THIS - FFS. As has been stated time and time again, MUI is brilliant with a touchscreen (or LeapMotion), but outside that use case it's an undoubted retrograde step. Yes, it's "split milk", but what Redmond should have done was evolve the 7 UI - i.e. add in those great ideas that 8 has, but DON'T INSIST ON MUI. A colleague of mine reminded me of that other "great idea" - Active Desktop - remember that? This time we got "revolution" instead of "evolution" - sort of a software "collective farm".
    Quote Originally Posted by Willzzz View Post
    People don't like change, but that doesn't make change bad. When was the last time you had the start menu open and actually did something on the rest of the screen? Never? The start screen only needs to be open for a fraction of a second, you just click once on the program you want and bang you're right back in the good old desktop again.
    Not quite sure what you mean "do something on the rest of the screen". I've certainly used 7's "recent docs" feature to dive directly into a particular Excel I'm working on this morning. Just about to click that taskbar icon to open my virtual PC instance on the customer network, all stuff that's not nearly as easy to do in Windows 8.

    If MUI works well for you then obviously I'm pleased. Just don't make the mistake of accusing those for whom it's demonstrably a step back of being neo-luddites. Apart from anything else I severely doubt that a desire to participate in/on Hexus and a luddite streak are compatible.
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    Re: News - Windows 8.1 will have a Start Screen button

    Quote Originally Posted by nacasatu View Post
    I want that "Modern UI" start screen GONE from my computer, gone, I don't want to see it, EVER !

    So I use that "startisback", mostly to completely skip that start screen muck and go straight to desktop, like I said, I don't even want to see it, ever, ever, ever.

    I then use ObjectDock Plus on the desktop to organise regularly used software and games into a nice tabbed dropdown menu that's otherwise hidden away.

    Dear Microsoft, please shove your modern UI social media based deleted by admin - read our rules on swearing
    Dear oh dear lol. Why didn't you just stick with windows 7? I cannot understand the vitriol some people spout about something so insignificant.

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    Re: News - Windows 8.1 will have a Start Screen button

    Look if you install a bit of software and you don't tick a box that says put a shortcut on the start screen then you shouldn't be surprised if the installer does not do so.
    You are complaining about a poorly written installer rather than Windows 8.

    Explain why it is helpful to see the rest of the screen while start is open? If you click off the menu it just disappears so you might as well have never opened it.

    And I've certainly used Windows 8 "recent docs" feature to jump right into my recent documents too, seemed easy enough to me.

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    Re: News - Windows 8.1 will have a Start Screen button

    Quote Originally Posted by Willzzz View Post
    People don't like change, but that doesn't make change bad.

    When was the last time you had the start menu open and actually did something on the rest of the screen? Never?

    The start screen only needs to be open for a fraction of a second, you just click once on the program you want and bang you're right back in the good old desktop again.
    But sometimes change is unnecessary. There is one thing to dislike it just because its change and its another thing to dislike because it negatively impacts your experience. I welcome changes that improve an experience, for me, this doesn't. I use start all the time and I often have chat windows, videos or any number of other applications running at the same time as starting other apps. Its not just about having to see them at the same as pressing start, its about breaking the simple fluidity of basic actions and its just not intuitive at all.

    Like i said, you can argue and argue and argue, but windows no longer does what i want it to do without tweaking. Its not comfortable, its not intuitive and its downright bloody awkward sometimes. There is a massive amount of people out there who feel the same way and we cannot simply be just wrong. Some people are adapting and thats fine, others are going to stand strong and hope Microsoft listen.

    We don't have to just deal with Microsoft telling us how we should operate, but you're going to have to learn to deal with the fact that some people have a different opinion to you otherwise you're going to give yourself a stroke trying to persuade us otherwise

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    Re: News - Windows 8.1 will have a Start Screen button

    Quote Originally Posted by Biscuit View Post
    what bugs me is that I'm being forced to adjust
    And here we have the core problem, stubbornness and an objection on principle of not being told what to do. I bet many of the complainers have quite happily used OS-X or Linux desktops without such whinging. Many claim they are going to use Linux from now on as a protest - they can cope with that transition because they chose to, that's the only difference...

    Modern UI is a necessary step to have Windows with a unified approach and consistent UI that accommodates touch interfacing foisted upon the world by hardware manufacturers. It would be far worse for Microsoft to do nothing and stick with the old when the world is changing underneath it - Windows 7 is absolutely abysmal as a touch UI. Joe Public needs Windows 8 and MUI for their shiny-touchy new things to be useful and usable...

    Quote Originally Posted by Agent
    I remember the start menu changes from XP to Vista/7, which I consider a massive improvement. This was enough for training courses to be run and support lines to help some people make a transition (I'm talking an organisation with thousands here).

    HEXUS is full of computer bods, but I've seen first hand casual computer users at work try to move to 8....and it ain't pretty.
    95>98>ME>2K>XP>Vista>7 at every step things changed and the computer eejits floundered. It's just the same with 8, but that isn't the UI design its the people's abilities (we can't all be good at everything!) and lack of education. I've seen plenty of people who couldn't find an already installed application in Windows 7 so it's not like the old start menu was the all conquering apex of simplicity. Other people found icons too small for their poor mouse skills (so they set a lower resolution on their LCD, eurgh) or couldn't cope with saving anything elsewhere than the desktop otherwise they'd lose it. These people are eejits with any OS and they need training, nothing has changed.

    All versions of Windows have needed a game style tutorial that runs by default and greater popup help on by default. Sure a few more visual cues would help with transition but at a basic level many people need to be told about every tiny change because they can't rediscover alone.

    It should be "technically minded" people who have few issues because we have the knowledge schemas to figure it out. A bit of pragmatism is needed, the change happened so lets find ways to work and help others rather than scream "undo undo undo it's crap it's rubbish". Microsoft won't go back because they can't and there are many downsides even if they could... it would increase the Windows codebase and make it more complex (and thus probably buggier), confuse people when they have to use their tablet differently to their PC despite it still have "Windows" written on it etc... I could go on.

    There's always room for improvement, 8.1 is doing just that. Improvement is not just smashing the undo button.
    Last edited by kingpotnoodle; 23-04-2013 at 11:04 AM.

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    Re: News - Windows 8.1 will have a Start Screen button

    Quote Originally Posted by Willzzz View Post
    Explain why it is helpful to see the rest of the screen while start is open?
    Because the rest of the screen might have content I'm currently watching. Take a video for example - there is no reason at all that an operation as simple as launching a program from the 'start' menu should forcibly take me away from that.
    Quote Originally Posted by Saracen View Post
    And by trying to force me to like small pants, they've alienated me.

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    Re: News - Windows 8.1 will have a Start Screen button

    Quote Originally Posted by kingpotnoodle View Post
    And here we have the core problem, stubbornness and an objection on principle of not being told what to do. I bet many of the complainers have quite happily used OS-X or Linux desktops without such whinging. Many claim they are going to use Linux from now on as a protest - they can cope with that transition because they chose to, that's the only difference...

    Modern UI is a necessary step to have Windows with unified approach that accommodates touch interfacing foisted upon the world by hardware manufacturers. It would be far worse for Microsoft to do nothing and stick with the old when the world is changing underneath it - Windows 7 is absolutely abysmal as a touch UI. Joe Public needs Windows 8 and MUI for their shiny-touchy new things to be useful and usable...
    1. You took my comment completely out of context
    2. You ignored the other points i have made on other posts which elaborate on why i don't like it, showing its not to do with stubbornness and objection on principle
    3. I have used OS-X and Linux and i have commented on the positives and minuses of each
    4. Drop the arrogance, you are not right and everyone else is wrong... seriously
    5. But its not unified, its only really touch friendly, wouldn't it have been possible to have both?
    6. Windows touch devices are not selling blindingly well, so they obviously haven't hit quite the right note. I know use my N7 more than my netbook to be honest.

    Can everyone please stop accusing those (be it subtley or directly) who don't like MUI as being some kind of backwards minded techno-luddite? Its just downright insulting, pathetic and arrogant.

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    Re: News - Windows 8.1 will have a Start Screen button

    Why didn't I just stick with Windows 7 ? Well for one, Windows 8 *is* a better operating system BUT it's let down considerably by the stupid start window shoved on to users when all throughout the betas, leading up to it and the massive amount of users objecting to it afterwards - microsoft didn't care and still proceeded to stick with it.
    Glorified box packers, that's all they are there these days, most of their coding is contracted out to cheap labour in India and Pakistan anyway.
    What do they have now ? Airy Fairy box packing execs "on the C level" pushing moronic changes on to people "just because they can".
    It's even worse than what people are saying because they're also now pushing business more toward those children's Apple desktop OS and away from PC's because business don't want to take on Linux either.
    So yes, thank you microsoft for single handedly going out of your way to destroy the PC market, well done...

    People vote with their feet, microsoft were extremely ignorant toward their users and people now are walking away in droves. G'luck trying to innovate anything with Apple now and their kiddie OSX.

    It just annoys me how stupid microsoft are, I've been there in their HQ many times, they really are just so out of touch it's shocking 99% of them are still employed.

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    Re: News - Windows 8.1 will have a Start Screen button

    Quote Originally Posted by kingpotnoodle View Post
    And here we have the core problem, stubbornness and an objection on principle of not being told what to do. I bet many of the complainers have quite happily used OS-X or Linux desktops without such whinging. Many claim they are going to use Linux from now on as a protest - they can cope with that transition because they chose to, that's the only difference...

    Modern UI is a necessary step to have Windows with a unified approach and consistent UI that accommodates touch interfacing foisted upon the world by hardware manufacturers. It would be far worse for Microsoft to do nothing and stick with the old when the world is changing underneath it - Windows 7 is absolutely abysmal as a touch UI. Joe Public needs Windows 8 and MUI for their shiny-touchy new things to be useful and usable...
    You're not exactly being fair here - I don't think anyone is saying that progress isn't needed. In my case, I can certainly see (and have said so) where MUI IS definitely "good". Your second paragraph neatly puts the problem out there - MUI is designed for touch, which means if you're not using touch devices (which let's be honest is most folks) then you seemed to be condemned to a second class experience - i.e. one that is (arguably) worse than the previous generation.

    "Worse" in this case being defined as needing more steps, or being less obvious.

    In my case I'd already migrated to Linux to an extent (this reply being typed on a Linux/Ubuntu system). And there the first versions of Unity (another UI designed for touch) were truly awful, to the point of being barely usable - totally deserving of the slagging they got. The current version (Ubuntu 12.04) is actually pretty good - for me it's better than MUI! Now, I will loudly hope that the same "evolution" that happened to Unity will happen to MUI, and "MUI mk2" will turn out to be fast, flexible and self-evident. Maybe Windows "8.1" will be that first step out of the ocean?
    Quote Originally Posted by kingpotnoodle View Post
    There's always room for improvement, 8.1 is doing just that. Improvement is not just smashing the undo button.
    Quite true. I doubt anyone would want to return to the Windows 3.1/GEM type interfaces - although it's very interesting to fire up a VM with one of those venerable UI's - while modern hardware can make them warp speed, you quickly realise how far we've come.
    Quote Originally Posted by nacasatu View Post
    Why didn't I just stick with Windows 7 ? Well for one, Windows 8 *is* a better operating system BUT it's let down considerably by the stupid start window shoved on to users when all throughout the betas, leading up to it and the massive amount of users objecting to it afterwards - microsoft didn't care and still proceeded to stick with it.
    It's even worse than what people are saying because they're also now pushing business more toward those children's Apple desktop OS and away from PC's because business don't want to take on Linux either.
    Agree with the first part, don't agree - AT ALL - with that second bit. You'd be surprised the number of business that WILL take Ubuntu. Oh, and to slag OSX off as a "children's desktop" is also mightily unfair, actually a bit surprised that none of the aficionados have picked you up on that.
    Last edited by crossy; 23-04-2013 at 12:37 PM.

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    Re: News - Windows 8.1 will have a Start Screen button

    Quote Originally Posted by kingpotnoodle View Post
    Modern UI is a necessary step to have Windows with a unified approach and consistent UI that accommodates touch interfacing foisted upon the world by hardware manufacturers. It would be far worse for Microsoft to do nothing and stick with the old when the world is changing underneath it - Windows 7 is absolutely abysmal as a touch UI. Joe Public needs Windows 8 and MUI for their shiny-touchy new things to be useful and usable...
    Why is it necessary? Apple don't feel the need to use the same interface on touch devices and desktop systems, neither does Ubuntu with their new mobile operating system and Google don't use the same interface for Chrome OS as it does for Android. I also don't see users complaining that their desktop computer is different from their phone, quite the opposite really. They prefer the different type of navigation on touch devices and are happy with it being different from their desktop computers because they use them in different ways with different preferences.

    Touch interfaces aren't being foisted onto the world, it is a new market that has a completely different usage model and therefore different input methods and interfaces suited to those input methods. I don't see why we should have to use the same interface for all input methods, we don't expect everything to use the same input methods so why make the interface for different input methods the same? Could you see a benefit to attaching a mouse to a photocopier or tablet? I can't, and it's the same for the interface you use with different input methods. A touch interface is not easier to use with a mouse so why would you want to use a touch interface on a machine that only has a keyboard and mouse as input methods?

    The home computer is a different device that is separate from mobile devices. It isn't intended to be used the same as a mobile device and shouldn't be treated as if it was a mobile device. Touch devices are becoming popular for content consumption but there will always be a need to create content and I can't see touch devices or touch interfaces being suitable for content creation. I am clearly not alone in this view and the market is proving that a touch interface is not a good way to operate a PC.

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    Re: News - Windows 8.1 will have a Start Screen button

    OK Biscuit, I'll bite, no pun intended, I'll look at the context. Please don't take my comments as personally directed at you in particular and I apologise if that was an insinuation. I tried to be general and there are different styles of Windows 8 detraction...

    Quote Originally Posted by Biscuit View Post
    But sometimes change is unnecessary.
    But it *is* necessary, Windows 7 cannot function as a touch UI and the world has gone all touchy feely. Not Microsoft's fault, they're following the market to stay relevant. To avoid an even more confusing mish-mash of multiple UI paradigms they have (IMHO quite bravely) attempted to create one that works everywhere and still allows traditional desktop multitasking and legacy software to work. Not an easy task, the first crack isn't perfect but that's the beauty of software updates so hopefully it'll get better.

    Quote Originally Posted by Biscuit View Post
    There is one thing to dislike it just because its change and its another thing to dislike because it negatively impacts your experience. I welcome changes that improve an experience, for me, this doesn't. I use start all the time and I often have chat windows, videos or any number of other applications running at the same time as starting other apps. Its not just about having to see them at the same as pressing start, its about breaking the simple fluidity of basic actions and its just not intuitive at all.

    Like i said, you can argue and argue and argue, but windows no longer does what i want it to do without tweaking. Its not comfortable, its not intuitive and its downright bloody awkward sometimes.
    That's fine, you don't like it I'm not trying to tell you that you do! I understand your reasons, for me its not an issue, for you it is... I'm sure there are things that are vice-versa.

    I don't like OS-X, iOS, Gnome3 or Unity that much so I don't use them as a daily driver but I know how to and I don't sit around saying it's too all too hard to adjust and they should undo it all and go back a few years. That's their product, take it or leave it. Windows 7 is still fully supported if you like it better... A lot of linuxers switched to XFCE or Cinnamon, it's a free choice.

    I use Windows 8 everywhere because I prefer it after trying all the options and weighing them up, every now and then I re-evaluate what I like best from what's available.

    Quote Originally Posted by Biscuit View Post
    There is a massive amount of people out there who feel the same way and we cannot simply be just wrong. Some people are adapting and thats fine, others are going to stand strong and hope Microsoft listen.

    We don't have to just deal with Microsoft telling us how we should operate, but you're going to have to learn to deal with the fact that some people have a different opinion to you otherwise you're going to give yourself a stroke trying to persuade us otherwise
    There is also a massive amount of people who use it just fine, see benefits and understand that Windows 8 does contain a lot of upsides particularly for less able users for whom bright colours, simple grids and large icons seem to be preferred.

    You tell me I'm arrogant (perhaps I am) yet you seem to think a billion dollar product in use by millions of people worldwide and designed by some very highly paid software engineers (possibly with awareness of industrially-secret research and prototypes) should avoid changing their user interface so it doesn't annoy you and people who share your opinion? They should scrap their whole strategy on your say-so? That's not arrogant?

    I'm not trying to be arrogant, I'm not even arguing that everyone should like Windows 8. I'm arguing that it isn't really that hard to use if you've got an affinity for computing and whether individuals like Windows 8 or not they should just be pragmatic, learn how to operate it, choose whatever OS is their favourite (8, 7, Linux, whatever) and send constructive feedback to MS instead of forcing a collective detractors "it's crap they should backpedal" opinion on the world like it's the full stop to the argument, the one-true-opinion and the only solution. Better to learn, adjust, help others and move forward than to advocate backpedalling with no alternative.

    A large part of Windows 8's poor market performance is external competition and market conditions coupled with it being hot on the heels of Windows 7 and chasing a still maturing "x86 hardware with touch" segment. Can't blame it all on the UI, and the negative discourse of people telling the world it's hard work before they even try it certainly doesn't help.

    Better hardware, better built-in tutorial, incremental improvements etc should make Windows 8 shine for a wider audience. Hopefully :-)

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    Re: News - Windows 8.1 will have a Start Screen button

    Quote Originally Posted by Noxvayl View Post
    Why is it necessary? Apple don't feel the need to use the same interface on touch devices and desktop systems, neither does Ubuntu with their new mobile operating system and Google don't use the same interface for Chrome OS as it does for Android.
    It doesn't help users having to learn how to use multiple systems though, maybe they cope but its not ideal. Would it not be better (theoretically speaking, regardless of current reality) if there was a single interface design that subtly adapted and worked across multiple device types. One paradigm to rule them all?

    Microsoft's strategy is to unify Windows and the UI across form factors, so whilst it might not be globally necessary it is within that strategy and they tried to achieve it with MUI, success is obviously highly debatable and a bit marmite.

    Quote Originally Posted by Noxvayl View Post
    Touch interfaces aren't being foisted onto the world, it is a new market that has a completely different usage model and therefore different input methods and interfaces suited to those input methods.
    Then why does my Dad own a Windows 7 era touch screen AIO which is never touched because Win 7 is useless for it? Why are touch screens grafted onto the traditional laptop form factor? The hardware manufacturers are doing this because they think touch is where it's at after the success of smart phones and iPad, clearly the general public do like touch and surely you can't argue against that direct touching with a finger is simpler and more intuitive for most people than learning fine mouse control or picking up stylii?

    Quote Originally Posted by Noxvayl View Post
    I don't see why we should have to use the same interface for all input methods, we don't expect everything to use the same input methods so why make the interface for different input methods the same?
    Simplicity, ease of learning, consistency, easier to maintain codebase, cross platform app development...

    Quote Originally Posted by Noxvayl View Post
    Could you see a benefit to attaching a mouse to a photocopier or tablet? I can't, and it's the same for the interface you use with different input methods. A touch interface is not easier to use with a mouse so why would you want to use a touch interface on a machine that only has a keyboard and mouse as input methods?
    Depends how you use it and the individual device, I often turn to a printer's web interface over the on-device console. I wouldn't find benefit from a Wacom on my work PC but the artist I watch on the train a few weeks ago clearly did.

    In my opinion it is far easier to emulate a finger prod with a mouse move and click or touchpad gesture than it is to emulate a mouse with a finger, fingers are just too fat.

    Quote Originally Posted by Noxvayl View Post
    The home computer is a different device that is separate from mobile devices. It isn't intended to be used the same as a mobile device and shouldn't be treated as if it was a mobile device.
    It is mainly like that *now* but will it always be so? There is evidence many people would prefer to own one touchy device that did it all and just interfaced with peripherals - haven't you seen how many people try to live with an iPad as their only computer by buying it a keyboard dock, a speaker dock and everything iLabelled... maybe they are constraining themselves now but as technology advances it won't stay like that.

    Quote Originally Posted by Noxvayl View Post
    Touch devices are becoming popular for content consumption but there will always be a need to create content and I can't see touch devices or touch interfaces being suitable for content creation. I am clearly not alone in this view and the market is proving that a touch interface is not a good way to operate a PC.
    Quite the contrary, the gigantic sales of tablets and smartphones prove touch is generally popular for as much as possible. If you want to do something with finer control then dock it and use a mouse/keys... seems to be plenty of market momentum towards that.

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    Re: News - Windows 8.1 will have a Start Screen button

    Quote Originally Posted by kingpotnoodle View Post
    But it *is* necessary, Windows 7 cannot function as a touch UI and the world has gone all touchy feely. Not Microsoft's fault, they're following the market to stay relevant. To avoid an even more confusing mish-mash of multiple UI paradigms they have (IMHO quite bravely) attempted to create one that works everywhere and still allows traditional desktop multitasking and legacy software to work. Not an easy task, the first crack isn't perfect but that's the beauty of software updates so hopefully it'll get better.
    Uhm... no it is not. The world has not gone touchy feely. A new market for mobile devices has emerged and the innovative input method for those devices is a touch screen which also happens to be the easiest way to operate those devices. None of this has made desktop computers change, lest you are forgetting that Windows 8 is a desktop operating system, not a mobile one. Windows RT and Phone are mobile operating systems for mobile devices, Windows 8 is a desktop system for desktop computers with keyboards and mice. I'd like to know where this hardware is that is forcing Microsoft into a touch interface on systems that use a completely different input method... Tablets are not desktop computers and they should have no influence on how you use your desktop system, just because there are millions of smart phones and tablet computers using touch screens doesn't mean desktop computers should use touch screens. Before Windows 8 existed I don't recall there being any touch enabled desktop computers, and now that we have some I don't see people wanting to use them. Desktop computers use a keyboard and mouse so the operating system on these machines should be optimised for keyboards and mice, not touch screens.

    Please elaborate the reason why having a touch interface on a non-touch device is necessary. No-one had a problem with Windows Phone 7 and Windows 7 operating systems using separate interfaces, so where is the necessity to make non-touch devices use a touch interface?

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    Re: News - Windows 8.1 will have a Start Screen button

    I still don't get what is so 'touch optimised' about clicking the bottom corner of the screen and then clicking an icon.

    Sounds an ideal situation for a mouse to me..

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    Re: News - Windows 8.1 will have a Start Screen button

    Quote Originally Posted by kingpotnoodle View Post
    ....

    But it *is* necessary, Windows 7 cannot function as a touch UI and the world has gone all touchy feely. Not Microsoft's fault, they're following the market to stay relevant. ...
    That not the case, though. The world has not gone all touchy feely, nor in the near term, is it likely to.

    Tablets have, yes, but desktop PCs have not, and among the corporates I deal with, for desktops, none are planning to. In many situations, it is neither necessary nor desirable. In some embedded situations, sure, like supermarket checkouts, but not in the mainstream.

    But even if it had, there's still the legacy upgrade category, with vast numbers of people with non-touch monitors, and they aren't going to upgrade perfectly good monitors just to get touch.

    What was, arguably, necessary for for MS to accommodate the touch environment. So, having MUI, in one form or another, fine.

    What was not necessary was to try to strong-arm everybody else that doesn't have, or want, touch to have a UI less well-suited to mouse and keyboard than what they had, know and are used to.

    MS want to break into the tablet market, and they're getting creamed by Apple and Android. This is, in my opinion, a very clumsy and ill-conceived attempt to use the market dominance of Windows to elbow it's way in to the tablet market by trying to unify things that, other than to MS, don't need unifying, to leverage tablet sales from Windows sales by changing the Windows paradigm, whether users want to change or not.

    Well, it hasn't worked. It blew up in their faces. A LOT of people either rejected Win 8 because of this, or used any one of a range of tools to give them the Win 8 they want, and that doesn't involve either touch or MUI.

    All it needed, as I said ages ago, is to give people the choice. Make MUI the default if they wish, but if we can (and loads of us do) all use third-party tools to dump MUI and use our PC's how we want, then MS could have built-in a simple switch. It could have been an install-time choice, in an ideal world, or even a post-install option to choose your boot default later, but either way, third parties have given us the choice anyway, so all MS have achieved is to generate a very considerable amount of ill-will towards both MUI and MS themselves, by being so high-handed about this issue.

    I have a tablet, and get on fine with touch screens. But I have no touch screens on my dozen or so desktops, and NO interest in putting any on. I'm buying some monitor upgrades at the moment, and they will not include touch screens. For those desktops, touch offers me nothing, absolutely nothing at all, of interest. And nor does MUI. Either I use W8 how I want to, or I won't use it.

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    Re: News - Windows 8.1 will have a Start Screen button

    Start8 from Stardock does this already! It even manages better than Microsoft's ever did. It has customisations galore.

    Microsoft... please listen to the people who use Windows!

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