News - Microsoft confirms “key aspects” of Windows 8 will change

[dangel]

If Windows has an interface that benefits from touchscreens etc, fine, let the user choose to enable it, such as at install time. Then, those with touchscreens or big touchpads can touch their screens to their heart's content, but why oh why did MS think it was a good idea to shove it down the throats of everyone else?

Interesting question - obviously because they've a vested interest in a one-OS-one-app-platform-everywhere strategy Saracen. Seems fairly obvious to me - the fact that it isn't right or 'there yet' for all users isn't contentious either. If they didn't do it then nobody would use it - as is the truth (like it or not) is that by forcing the issue they'll get commitment to it as a platform change. It rather reminds me of UAC - Vista introduced it like an A-Bomb to Windows users and yet now it's largely accepted because it was refined in 7. You have to start somewhere and UAC was all about breaking developers away from MS-encouraged habits as much as getting end users to consider not being admin for browsing facebook.. Obviously something with the level of UI changed as MUI is far worse for end users since it's arguably far more 'in your face' but getting WinRT/MUI off the ground remains the goal and it was only ever going to be an ambitious one.

So 8.1 will refine a few things, appease some and still leave some others upset. Point is, unless they make it substantively *worse* the noise will die down and (maybe) they'll achieve their goal. Question is (as always) is it the majority that won't be happy (as some maintain) or is it a vocal minority? Further, are their concerns founded in genuine usability issues or just 'gahhhh it's different' type thinking (which I see all day every day as a developer).
Chicken and egg all the way - both in terms of getting a new platform (WinRT versus Win32) off the ground and introducing new ways of interacting with your PC. I don't subscribe to the view than input devices are mutually exclusive (this is nonsensical in a World of PCs with keyboards AND mice) and nor do I think we should confine our thinking about interfaces to be constrained by just one of them. After all, with the mouse, your entire arm and digits are reduced to a single 2d interaction point and with touch you can't see through your digits or point accurately at a single pixel. I'm spending a great deal of time playing around with an ASUS tablet with pen, finger, keyboard, touchpad and mouse - it's a surprising experience in that your realise some things are better with one or the other.

Great thing is you'd don't have to use it yet - sit back and wait till they get it right for you - or, alternatively, use one of the myriad free and paid-for solutions to customising it to your needs (real or otherwise). I'm pretty happy with it myself - the annoyances are periphery in the main and the improvements to the areas of the OS I do use are now something I can't go without having got accustomed to having them there.

For the record, I'd like the Start button back simply because it's visual (the reason why it's gone is because tablets have a physical button and I guess they thought 'well keyboards do too') and better when working with VMs, RDP etc. I'd point out i never really click it otherwise though.. I'd like them to fix legacy program grouping on the start screen (because it's a mess visually) - i.e. the equivalent of folder groups. I'd like less of a mish mash between control panel items (some in MUI and some in 'legacy' is clearly 'not done yet' stuff) and for them to get a bit further down the line with whatever they're doing with windowing apps because the splitting is pretty ugly right now. Not sure if modernmix is the right approach though..

Ponderings, nothing more. Perhaps I'm more patient than some or my perspective differs as I face user critique on my own software and changing anything meets with opposition in almost all cases.

Where have all these Win8 fanboys come from ?

All veteran Hexus member like Windows 7!

If I qualify (?) - well I do. But I also like 8. Mostly. Is this OK?

[dangel]

There are many thinks I like about w8. I do not miss the start button (although I do wish they had made it easier to switch the computer off - make an app for it!). What I do hate is they way the OS has been designed primarily as a means of extracting more money out of users:

1. Want WMC, you have to pay for it
2. Use the Movies/Music apps - they are advertising billboards with very limit functions built in as a way of luring you in (fortunately you can have WMP and VLC)
3. Use a NAS, sorry MS wants you to all use the cloud and pay for it once you exceed their free limit.
4. Want to play DVD/Blu ray? Need to buy more software for that.

I could go on but I think you get the point. This is consistent with MS moving office software to a subscription system.

I'm an avid WMC user - but a couple of points on it's history..

1. WMC is not used by the majority of users.
2. XP didn't have DVD playback either - a special edition of Windows was required (familiar) or you did it yourself.
3. One way or another you paid for DVD playback from MS in Windows.
4. BluRay playback wasn't in 7 either (and the commercial options are massively overpriced).

I fear WMC is dying in favour of their XBOX strategy - and to be fair they've never marketed it properly which I always saw as a shame because until quite recently it was the dogs danglies versus Sky boxes with their retarded interfaces.

MS want a cut of App revenue though, naturally. Yes they are looking to make money.

[cjs150]

Dangel: I am using w8+WMC+ My Movies add on as an HTPC. It is really, really good.

w7 had DVD playback, on XP I just used VLC. It would have been nice if MS had included Bluray playback as that is more modern but I can understand the cost issues. It is not a big issue, PowerDVD, whilst pricey, works well and links into WMC.

Sadly MS has decided WMC is a dead end even though it was technically very good. I can always hope that they will release the source code to the community (two chances, slim and none) as the way it listed music/movies etc needs a refresh. I suspect that in a couple of years I will be forced to use XBMC (which I like, but TV front end still a bit iffy).

Within an hour of starting with w8 I had deleted the movie and music apps and reverted to WMP. Truly awful apps

[jonet]

I've updated a Windows 7 desktop and a Windows Vista laptop to Windows 8 and I really like the new system. Faster boots and shut down, more secure, looks great (IMHO :-)), compatible with all my hardware, faster browsing, great apps etc. Everything is really easy to access with the new tiles which are fun to use with the apps you can download. I haven't even noticed the missing start button as I've had no need for it. I think some people don't like change, others want more flexibility (which the updates will probably provide) and others haven't read a short summary of where things have moved eg shutdown method which is just as easy as on previous systems. It reminds me of the change to the ribbon layout on Office. Difficult at first to find where everything is, not always intuitive, but you get used to it and it's better.

I think one reason for the change may not be the personal market. Windows 8 tiles are great for apps and lots of software you've downloaded yourself, but in most businesses you use a very limited amout of software (office package, inhouse systems, email, web browser) and can't download apps and any other software yourself. So Windows 8 perhaps doesn't come across as ideal for businesses.

[Andrew McP]

It reminds me of the change to the ribbon layout on Office. Difficult at first to find where everything is, not always intuitive, but you get used to it and it's better.

The Ribbon is still an abomination if you ask me, and the very fact that sentences like yours can be written about MS products shows just how out of touch they are with the goal of providing a transparently useful tool with which to get on with our work or play.

The one thing which has frustrated me most about the whole stupid and entirely avoidable Win8 saga is the "you just don't like change" argument. It is so facile. Change is inevitable and welcome when it comes to many things in life, but the basics of the desktop (and I emphasise desktop) experience have stayed the same because Xerox hit the jackpot with the WIMP concept; it just works intuitively.

MS had some great ideas with Win8, and this incremental OS (over Win7) is better than its reputation. But that reputation among the mainstream is well and truly deserved. The arrogant roll-out of this strikingly different interface was a farce. All they had to do was offer a choice. They could have made the Start Menu use a very similar style to the full screen menu people would meet on touchscreen or table devices, blurring the boundary between the old and the new, and allowing people to switch to the full screen menu if they liked.

They knew it would be messy, hence the initial pricing. But they underestimated how messy and now there's humble pie everywhere. For them to move even slightly on the interface is a humiliating climb-down however you dress it up.

Hopefully this will teach them a valuable lesson. An OS is not a destination, it's a portal, and you need to stop your welcome mat being a trip hazard.

[Saracen]

The Ribbon is still an abomination if you ask me, and the very fact that sentences like yours can be written about MS products shows just how out of touch they are with the goal of providing a transparently useful ....

Pretty agree with your post, but that first point is interesting.

Even now, several years later, the Ribbon UI is interesting, and in any comparison between Ribbon and MUI, I find myself on one side with one, and on the other side with the other. What interests me is why.

I think it's because MUI seems to me to be about trying to leverage MS platforms goals and to hell with users. The Ribbon is at least intended to be about productivity and ease of use, and personally, I prefer it. Perhaps it's because I'm not a heavy user, and a very high percentage of the time, the tools I want are pretty much right there, with a click or two, rather than having a tedious hunt through numerous menu's and sub-menus trying to remember where I found such-and-such an option lurking last time I tracked it down.

It is, however, still devisive and a lot of people really don't like it. Which is why I think MS ought to have offered users the choice there, too, rather than making people find 3rd-party solutions .... which, of course, is exactly what many will do and did do.

Really, all I want is for MS to let users choose whether to adapt and adopt change, or not. And, given the 3rd party tools, it would not have been hard to do. I would have, and did, go for Ribbon, but MUI. No chance.

[dangel]

For them to move even slightly on the interface is a humiliating climb-down however you dress it up.

And to not listen and change anything is arrogant? Either way they appear to be damned - I'm not convinced. I support your view they knew what they were getting into with this though.

As for the Ribbon - personally I saw the value in it very quickly - I couldn't find anything hidden away in a myriad of menus and it being context sensitive too makes it far more useful to me. I'm baffled as to why people hate it in Explorer since in 7 you are literally left with nothing to help the casual user and even for the power user it's nice to be able to access things like 'show extensions' without hitting ALT to magically unhide the hidden(!) menus and get at the folder options. I've not seen a better answer on how to avoid menus (and therefore hidden items) yet. I really don't subscribe to the view that *any* learning curve denotes it's more difficult - at the end of the day we are learn where things are (muscle memory) and even changing their position requires relearning (see abortive attempts at auto hiding items in office menus in the past - beyond annoying). If you change the workflow too, even though it might actually reduce throughput short term it could well be better long term (or a non issue for users without your embedded knowledge).

As for MUI its biggest problem isn't things like it's lack of start button or even that the start screen is full screen - it biggest one is in it's unfinished implementation: dumping you between desktop and MUI control panels, bad mouse control for closing/splitting apps, lack of coherent grouping for legacy apps - and that's before you get to the fundamental question of whether abandoning resizeable windows for it's actual applications isn't a step backwards. But MS have a new platform to push and hence it can't wait for Windows 10 - and I think that's part of the reason why they're moving (so it seems) to a yearly schedule - well that and the fact that they can't leave phone/tablet devices without significant updates for 3 year periods like they have done for the desktop given the competition doesn't.

On pricing - reflectively I agree, and it also supports their own needs to establish the new platform as quickly as possible. In fact i'd say they should of kept it that way - at least until such time and the furore died down (and they improved things) or just front up that they're charging a lesser amount every n months now.

All said and done though this isn't going away - as much as people might pray(?) otherwise I can't see MS swaying from there WinRT-everywhere platform goal - the only question is how long will it take for them to get it right and whether or not the minor loss of sales is really that big of a problem for them in the short term. Even Vista which had arguably much more serious issues for end users (as in 'bang') still sold and MS still made money - longer term 7 fixed the problems (along with third parties) and MS carried on. 8 isn't anywhere near that bad for MS (imho) but it's incredibly difficult to see how well it's doing in the face of a whole heap of other factors affecting PC sales too (which, after all is where the sales come from).

[Saracen]

.....

As for MUI its biggest problem isn't things like it's lack of start button or even that the start screen is full screen - it biggest one is in it's unfinished implementation: dumping you between desktop and MUI control panels, bad mouse control for closing/splitting apps, lack of coherent grouping for legacy apps - .....

All said and done though this isn't going away - as much as people might pray(?) ....

Agreed on the last point.

But on the "biggest problem" bit, that's not (IMHO, of course) the biggest problem. That is that MS decided to jerk millions of people around, mess with the basic way their PC works, change the way people have to think to get their PC to do even very basic things, and the changes, as exemplified by MUI, offer the vast majority of users NOTHING that they want from a desktop OS.

Most of us want day to day functions, WP, email, browsing, maybe games, maybe accounts software or other business tools. We dont give 3/4 of 5/8 of a flying fig about phone style apps on a PC, and in a PC context, "app" is merely an abbreviation for application, like MS Word, or Adobe Lightroom, or Quickbooks Pro, or an email client, etc.

Coordination between desktop devices, like the vast majority of PC's are, and some future generation of MS mobile/portable devices confers not one jot, not a single iota, of tangible benefit.

In other words, it causes us hassle getting used to a completely different way of doing something we've been doing for, what, maybe 20 years. It's not an evolution, presentation-wise, it's a shock to the comfort zone, and is about as welcome as walking out your front door to find some idiot has balanced a bucket of pig poop over the door and you end up wearing it all.

I'm, personally, not exactly a technophobe. I first used computers in the mid 1960's, was programming them in the early 70's, bought my first proper computer in the late 70's (Apple 2e), my first PC (in the sense of IBM compatible) in, IIRC, 1984. I was developing Windows programs (for a very large computer multinational) a couple of years later. I've visited MS headquarters, met Bill Gates a number of times, spend time behind code-locked product development lab doors at Apple in Cupertino, been in factories for all sorts in Europe, the US and Japan, had dinner with Lemark's CEO, been invited to a party by IBM's CEO, been taken around Epson's HQ and had briefings from their board. I've lost track of how many pre-release pieces of hardware I've had, from the original HP colour laserjet, months before it was released, to pre-production or gold sample Intel and AMD processors.

I'm as well equipped as just about anybody to take technological changes, hardware or software, in my stride. Yet, with MUI, I find myself thinking .... why the hell should I? What does this upheaval offer me! And the answer, as I said earlier in this rant, is nothing, zip, bupkiss, squat, sweet FA.

Then, I try to put myself in the shoes of an 80-year old friend of mine, who struggled with MUI. And this particular 80-year old has built dozens of PCs for himself, and fixed loads more for others, when he asked me "what's the benefit to me of working out new ways of doing things". Well, the silence of my answer was deafening.

And that is the problem. The UI changes are all about MS trying to sell mobile stuff off the back of Windows, because their products, to date at least, simply haven't been good enough to break through on their own merits. All the benefit goes to MS, and all the hassle of unwanted and unwelcome change goes to users.

Win 8 is, under the hood, an upgrade worth having. The presentation side, the UI as it comes out of the box, is a serious pain in the butt, with no upside and plenty of hassle, to lots of people.

That's why there's a backlash. It's not about buttons, coherent grouping or good/bad mouse closures, it's because we feel, for their own selfish purposes, MS expected us to put up with the hassle pointlessly.

To paraphrase, IIRC, Winnie Churchill, on the subject of MUI, "up with this we will not put". I certainly will not, not until and unless MS come up with a convincing reason to do so, which so far, they have signally and dismally failed to do.

[Willzzz]

Most of us want day to day functions, WP, email, browsing, maybe games, maybe accounts software or other business tools.

So how does Win8 impede any of these functions? All of these happen on the desktop which has not changed in any meaningful way and certainly not for the worse.

The only part that may happen on the MUI is launching the programs, and all that takes is a single click, even my mum can handle that.

[Saracen]

So how does Win8 impede any of these functions? All of these happen on the desktop which has not changed in any meaningful way and certainly not for the worse.

The only part that may happen on the MUI is launching the programs, and all that takes is a single click, even my mum can handle that.

it's not about impeding those functions, it's about the experience, turning on, finding things, moving from one thing to another. As I said, getting used to new ways of doing things. Give me my start button, menus and boot to desktop, etc, and I'll be a quiet little sheeple. i.e. getting Metro outta my face and just letting me get on with actually doing things. All I want is to do things as I have been doing them, without being jerked about unnecessarily by changes MS wants for it's benefit in leveraging mobile device sales.

[Noxvayl]

So how does Win8 impede any of these functions? All of these happen on the desktop which has not changed in any meaningful way and certainly not for the worse.

The only part that may happen on the MUI is launching the programs, and all that takes is a single click, even my mum can handle that.

Saracen eloquently responded but I thought I'd reiterate that it isn't about specific tasks being more difficult with respect to legacy programs being used, it is the learning required to operate the system generally that infuriates myself and it seems Saracen too. You can no longer find all the settings you use in the control panel, some things are "hidden" within MUI charms bar which is unintuitive and frankly annoying. I can't think of a good reason why I have to put up with that and you aren't making an argument worth considering.

[rant]

If you want to boil things down and narrow your focus onto something specific that is a problem to try to point out that the fuss being made is an exaggeration please find a good reason why I have to put up with the three problems listed below?

Why is my shutdown button in a different place that requires more than 2 menus to be opened before getting to it?
Why are settings separated between the two interfaces? The control panel should "control" everything in the OS.
Why can't I close MUI apps or move direct to desktop using my mouse?
Why can't MUI apps be resized based on my preferences?

These problems, by the way, are a hindrance to my use of the operating system. I have to put up with these issues because Microsoft(MS) decrees it so, and apparently because you think they are trivial... Bollocks to that, MS can stick MUI where the sun don't shine I resent the fact that you and others keep going on as if the issues people have using the OS are exaggerated and of no consequence to you. I couldn't care less if you are happy to put up with the changes Microsoft have made, that doesn't mean I should do the same so please stop trying to get people to change their view of Windows 8 based on your own personal preferences. I am allowed to dislike it, I'm not trying to get others to dislike it so stop trying to get me and others to like it.

[/rant]

FYI just because you think your mother is able to do something does not in any way make your argument more authoritative.

[Willzzz]

Why is my shutdown button in a different place that requires more than 2 menus to be opened before getting to it?
Why are settings separated between the two interfaces? The control panel should "control" everything in the OS.
Why can't I close MUI apps or move direct to desktop using my mouse?
Why can't MUI apps be resized based on my preferences?

Half of those complaints disappear if you don't use apps. If you don't like them, don't use them.

Shutdown
There are about a dozen ways to shutdown your PC, you don't have to use any menus if you don't want to.
It takes me three clicks to shutdown in WinXP it takes 3 clicks using the charms menu in Win8.

Which particular settings are you complaining about?

[Noxvayl]

Half of those complaints disappear if you don't use apps. If you don't like them, don't use them.

Shutdown
There are about a dozen ways to shutdown your PC, you don't have to use any menus if you don't want to.
It takes me three clicks to shutdown in WinXP it takes 3 clicks using the charms menu in Win8.

Which particular settings are you complaining about?

You are missing the point...

YOU are happy to circumvent those things, I am not. Why do I have to change the way I use my operating system for the benefit of someone else? or more to the point, why do I have to be happy about Windows 8 because you are happy with Windows 8?

I am pointing out that just because you find things useful and good in Windows 8 doesn't mean those things are universally useful or good or that anyone else has to agree with you.

[Willzzz]

Use the operating system the way it benefits you.

You don't like apps, don't use them.
You don't like using the charms bar to shutdown, don't bother.

99% of the stuff that used to work still does.

You are the one that seems intent on using Win8 in the way that YOU don't like.

[Noxvayl]

I used the system in a way that benefits me, the system functions in a way that does not. I still use Windows 7 as a result, why compromise?

[Andrew McP]

Really, all I want is for MS to let users choose whether to adapt and adopt change, or not.

It's not rocket science, is it. I can see why they might want to nudge us in a direction they want in their Apple-ised view of their corporate future, but they're forgetting that flexibility is the reason why MS took over the PC world and Apple had to invent a whizz-bang gizmo in order to get their global success. People may be buying more Macs now, but that's because they spend so much time in the highly regimented Apple universe already it's a natural progression.

So I can understand why MS might be a bit traumatised by the market's direction of travel. But there's no reason to traumatise us while they're struggling to find their way in this new, less desktoppy world.



PS I concede that Ribbon is nowhere near as divisive as Win8; I may just have been looking for an excuse to jump ship to Open Office. I only use MS products at home, not work, so could escape easily.

PPS You have a fascinating CV.

PPPS I apologise to everyone for introducing the world to the word 'desktoppy'.