News - Microsoft confirms “key aspects” of Windows 8 will change

[Andrew McP]

And to not listen and change anything is arrogant? Either way they appear to be damned - I'm not convinced.

They are damned either way, but that's a situation they put themselves in and it was one which anyone with half a clue could see coming from the moment we first got our hands on the preview. What an excellent tablet interface, most of us thought! Now, where's the off switch? :-)

it's incredibly difficult to see how well it's doing in the face of a whole heap of other factors affecting PC sales too (which, after all is where the sales come from).

I agree, Win8 is probably a trivial factor in the falling sales. So many people simply never needed or wanted a PC, they just had one because there was no alternative. My mother only ever uses an iPad now, and I believe a lot of younger people only ever use phones. So there's good reason for MS to be looking to the future and experimenting. But not with my poxy desktop please. :-)

[crossy]

I used the system in a way that benefits me, the system functions in a way that does not. I still use Windows 7 as a result, why compromise?

Pretty much my opinion. Change IS good - as long as it's moving forward. To me, MUI isn't moving forwards. I remember my old interface design lecturer saying that - as a benchmark - that if a user had to spend more than 30 seconds working out how to do something basic with an application or OS then the design of that was flawed. An OS is not an end in itself, it's function is to make it as quick and easy as possible for a user to launch programs and carry out administrative tasks around those programs (like copying data, etc).

Use the operating system the way it benefits you.
You don't like apps, don't use them.
You don't like using the charms bar to shutdown, don't bother.
99% of the stuff that used to work still does.
You are the one that seems intent on using Win8 in the way that YOU don't like.

Erm, the whole point of an OS is to allow you to access app(lication)s - without that the PC is just a noisy space heater! Charms bar to shutdown fine - just ffs add the ability to shutdown as an option on logout - simple. And I guess that's my point, if those MUI-related issues were fixed then I'd be moving to Windows 8. Heck, I'll state now that I'll be very interested in Windows 9 - so please don't mistake my MUI-hate for that of someone who doesn't want change.

Personally I quite like Andrew McP's analogy, MUI - in it's current form - is a badly fitting welcome mat just waiting to trip up the unwary.

PS - for the record - I STILL hate the Office ribbon interface!

[Willzzz]

Oh don't be so childish, you know perfectly well what I mean by apps.

What do you mean by shutdown as an option on logout? If you just shutdown normally it's hard to stay logged in to a PC that is turned off.

[crossy]

Oh don't be so childish, you know perfectly well what I mean by apps.

You said "You don't like apps, don't use them." - now either you meant all app(lication)s as a whole or just MUI apps. So the point I was trying to make was that if you meant the former then a PC is a bit pointless (and yes, that's a touch childish I'll admit - but the ambiguity was yours!). On the other hand if you mean "avoid MUI apps" then doesn't that make Windows8 a bit pointless since that "easier way to access your applications" was supposed to be the whole selling point for MUI in the first place!

What do you mean by shutdown as an option on logout? If you just shutdown normally it's hard to stay logged in to a PC that is turned off.

(Disclaimer: if what I'm about to say has been fixed, then ignore me) At present if I was in front of a Windows8 PC and wanted it OFF, then I'd first have to log out then find that option to shutdown in the main (login) screen. What I'd want is - effectively - a "log me out and then shutdown" option to be available while logged in. Yes, I know W8 has some marvellous hibernation options - but when I've finished with a PC I invariably want it off. Other OS (including Windows 7 and Ubuntu) have this, so it's not a wacky/novel thing to ask for.

[dangel]

You said "You don't like apps, don't use them." - now either you meant all app(lication)s as a whole or just MUI apps. So the point I was trying to make was that if you meant the former then a PC is a bit pointless (and yes, that's a touch childish I'll admit - but the ambiguity was yours!). On the other hand if you mean "avoid MUI apps" then doesn't that make Windows8 a bit pointless since that "easier way to access your applications" was supposed to be the whole selling point for MUI in the first place!

The point was to launch a new platform for apps - the start screen using that platform isn't the be all and end all of that. MUI is (in theory) about cross-device, touch, responsiveness (because you have to write code that doesn't block), sandboxing, the store and of course the 'style' (amongst other things). It's potentially very interesting - WinRT underpins it (and this is a new thing) - and like most things MS do now DirectX is used to render it (but without the stodge of WPF/NET slowing it down - so it seems). It's not a terrible idea - it's just not well implemented for desktops (i.e. in how they're managed).

If I choose shutdown it logs me off and powers down the PC just like 7 did. The only real difference in how 8 shuts down is that it hibernates anything in kernel mode none of which has anything to do with your user session.

[Saracen]

Oh don't be so childish, you know perfectly well what I mean by apps.

....

Perhaps so, but .... I've seen countless instances over the years where raging arguments, and even loss of friendships, have occurred over misunderstandings over precisely what something meant.

So, I've spent about 30 years where an "app" was an abbreviation for application, and "apps" was the plural of that.

The use of the term app to refer to a mini application of the smartphone/tablet variety is a VERY recent new use of a long-standing term used to mean something else.

So, especially when discussing a PC environment and OS, the term app is far from unambiguous. It is worth remembering that just because you know what you meant, and it seems clear to you, it is not necessarily so to someone reading it.

One reason I tend to be quite wordy in posts in precisely this issue - to try to be clear enough to leave no ground for arguments to arise where I meant one thing and others assume, either genuinely or for the sake of being awkward, that I meant something else.

I have even, though not for years, known people ending up getting suspended or banned from arguments arising originally with exactly this issue, though the original issue often gets lost in the argument.

And that, and the ambiguity over "app", is precisely why, a few days ago either in this or one of the other Win8 threads, I took care to explicitly define which meaning of app I meant when I used that term.

[directhex]

Multitasking on Win8, with the default apps, Win8 style, looks like this:



Or, alternatively, like this:



If you pretend it's Windows 7, and use third party apps, it looks like this:



Of course, if you multitask, remember that there are two unconnected task lists:



Windows 8's UI is fundamentally broken on the desktop. Only pretending it's not Win8 makes it usable.

[Willzzz]

Yes but although the word "app" itself is ambiguous, once in context it is not.

I mean I appreciate the use of the exclamation mark to indicate that it was a jokey response, but to then disregard the point as 'dealt with' I find a little rude.

Like you guys I am not at all taken with the new MUI and MUI apps, but I just don't find that they prevent me using my PC in exactly the same way that I used to. Using windows 8 I am still able to follow the same patterns of behaviour that I have been used to for years.

When I first installed it I messed around with apps for a few days, and then swiftly came to the conclusion that they were inferior to the desktop versions I was used to. So I stopped using apps and from that point forward Win8 stopped being annoying.

Some people seem to have this bloody minded approach that says because 'apps' exist that you are forced to use them.

[Willzzz]

If you pretend it's Windows 7, and use third party apps, it looks like this:

Eh? Since when was minesweeper a third party app?
I use VLC on my WinXP machine as well, it's just better than Media Player.

So actually there's no difference?

[Saracen]

Yes but although the word "app" itself is ambiguous, once in context it is not.

....

Again, perhaps. But I'll say it again, it is not ambiguous to you.

I had a severe row with two personal, real-life friends when they interpreted something I said in a way that was emphatically not what I meant. I got the air cleared with one, but the other took many months before stopping snippy remarks because of it, by which time, the friendship was stone cold dead. We haven't talked for months, nor is it likely. Yet, he'd been to my home for dinner more thsn once.

It might have been reasonably clear in this csse, but if yoy rely on context to clarify ambiguous wording, you are taking a distinct chance, and the risk is, sooner or later, someone reads the context differently to you.

[dangel]

@DirectHex (sorry didn't want quote all that)

heh, the splitting stuff is nasty but you're also pretending that Win8's UI is only MUI and nothing else (which suits your pictorial). Fortunately they did some work on the desktop proper (and those bits I do like).

I've said it before I'm still unconvinced that they can remove the windowing from Windows - arbitrarily resizeable Windows are useful which ever way you look at it and I like to be able to overlap them too. Shocking stuff I know.

Like you guys I am not at all taken with the new MUI and MUI apps, but I just don't find that they prevent me using my PC in exactly the same way that I used to. Using windows 8 I am still able to follow the same patterns of behaviour that I have been used to for years.

When I first installed it I messed around with apps for a few days, and then swiftly came to the conclusion that they were inferior to the desktop versions I was used to. So I stopped using apps and from that point forward Win8 stopped being annoying.

Some people seem to have this bloody minded approach that says because 'apps' exist that you are forced to use them.

There's some truth to that, yes - hence why I find it quite odd since it doesn't bother me that much. I quite like the presentation of MUI - I like some of the newsreading apps and I'm not opposed to checking my mail with the mail app either. I've checked the weather a few times too I quite like the toast notifications too. The concept itself isn't horrible but the implementation of how you manage and interact with them is (although I quite like the mouse wheel as a left to right scroll which is weird but hey..) on the desktop.
On my tablet/hybrid thing it obviously makes a whole lot more sense. It's because of the 'window management' side of things it suffers - the apps themselves are limited by the maturity of the platform and the access they have to system (the sandboxing).

Once I worked out I could pop the desktop tile to the top left and then hit return to get onto the desktop proper (or launch an app-lication to use) it didn't really bother me that much. In some ways it makes some sense that you see a screen of updating information when you turn on rather than a blank desktop - my next step is always to launch an app-lication anyway so.. It'd be kinda nice if the tiles could be made bigger aka android widgets in all honesty.

[Willzzz]

It might have been reasonably clear in this case, but if yoy rely on context to clarify ambiguous wording, you are taking a distinct chance, and the risk is, sooner or later, someone reads the context differently to you.

It's not just that it was reasonably clear in general, it is that crossy very clearly KNEW what I meant when he was writing his response.
He deliberately misunderstood on purpose.

Now I don't mind a bit of light hearted banter, or a comic interlude, but you should come back to the point, which he has done since, so all's well that ends well.

[HalloweenJack]

I know people who make win 7 look like win98

[dangel]

I actually wrote code preventing people turning off Windows Themeing in XP (i.e. turn on Windows Classic) for our app. "I want it to look like Windows 2000! This is terrible!!!"

[Saracen]

It's not just that it was reasonably clear in general, it is that crossy very clearly KNEW what I meant when he was writing his response.
He deliberately misunderstood on purpose....

Again, and for the third time, maybe. I say "maybe" because I haven't bothered to go back and carefully reread exactly who said what, or in exactly what context. My comments were about misinterpretation and context, because time and again, I've seen misinterpretations end up in flame wars, and that's when I end up stepping in and trying to sort out exactly who said what, and people end up getting suspended.

....
Now I don't mind a bit of light hearted banter, or a comic interlude, but you should come back to the point, which he has done since, so all's well that ends well.

Excuse me?

You are now treading on very thin ice.

Comic interlude? And you absolutely do not get to tell me what I should or should not post, and to "come back to the point."

The point, as you put it, was your attitude, telling Crossy not to be childish. My intervention was specifically to stop that petulant remark generating a similar response, which is precisely the type of situation when we end up escalating into flame wars, and I end up spending a lot of time sorting it out. And I'd rather prevent it than sort it out afterwards.

My advice is for you to drop this, but if you reply, think carefully about quite how.

[Willzzz]

Ah OK, now we really have got a misunderstanding going on. That was an indefinite "you" not a second person "you". Perhaps I should have used "one" to be less ambiguous.

The "all's well that ends well" was an attempt to drop it, second time lucky..