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Thread: News - Next Windows officially named Windows 8.1 - free for Win8 users

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    Re: News - Next Windows officially named Windows 8.1 - free for Win8 users

    Quote Originally Posted by kingpotnoodle View Post
    ....

    Beyond the marketing angle IMHO it is a positive thing for Microsoft to move to attempting a unified consistent look and feel, it makes computing generally less confusing if it can be carried forward like this. We're not there yet but Windows 8/Phone 8/RT etc is a step in the right direction.

    ....

    I don't know why anyone seriously thinks it's a "good thing" to have Windows look and operate totally differently on phones, tablets, laptops, desktops etc especially as the boundaries between them increasingly blurring... ....
    On the first point, I agree there's nothing wrong with that depending on how it's done.

    The problem us that users are expected to suddenly get used to a new UI, and if MS had their way, would have no choice. Any choice we have is thanks to third-party developers recognising what users want, and for large numbers, that is to not have to faff around with MUI.

    The reason why it can be good to have a different UI on different devices is that defferent devices are used for different things, in different ways.

    The reason, for example, that a supermarket like Tesco uses mouse/kb for their desktop PCs in accounts departments, legal, secretarial functions, and so many office functions is because they work best with accounts software, WP, spreadsheets etc, yet use touchscreens on checkouts, largely driven by "tiles" is that one type of UI suits one type of use, and a different approach suits checkouts.

    Exactly the same applies to tablets and phones, compared to desktop PCs. People use tablets in a slightly different way, and for somewhat different things, than they use desktops. And even if MS has a consistent interface doesn't get round the issue that Android and Apple dominate phones and tablets, while MS dominate desktops.

    So, in the desire to try to tap into that tablet/phone market, having managed a marked lack of sparkle in previous attempts, MS decided to force existing users to do things differently, regardless of the hassle or aggravation of doing so.

    Even so, forcing a change might be a decent decision IF the change you forced was a better way of doing things, but the MUI paradigm does not, in the view of lots of people, suit conventional desktop usage.

    One reason the MS attempt to shove MUI on us is precisely that 3rd party devekopers have offered an alternative. MS could have, and in my opinion, should have, offered that from the get-go.

    Here's an option.

    As part of the install process, MS could have offered the user a choice. Option 1 = the new, "improved" MS MUI, and option 2 = installing a third-party of MS tool to maintain boot to desktop, start button, etc.

    After all, MS have incorporated enough 3rd-party tools in the past, like disk defraggers, backup tools, etc. And it could even have been "unsupported", a la Powertoys, provided by but not supported by MS.

    They could have offered users the choice to engage with a change that requires users to get used to a new way of doing things, and in the case of business users, very significant retraining costs, or not. But they didn't. So, I'm forced to assume that MS are either so thick that they didn't think about it, or that they decided their long-term strategy trumps user choice and preference. I know which of those my money would be on.

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    Re: News - Next Windows officially named Windows 8.1 - free for Win8 users

    So if 8.1 was always planned, and always intended to address the broken/unpleasant things for the desktop? What's in 8.2 I wonder and is the new yearly schedule going to mean faster and better cures to woes than we're used to? It better.

    Anyway, making it optional doesn't suit them at all - it would simply be ignored by developers (and/or end users). By putting it front and centre they're forcing the platform down a new avenue. If the tablet/phone market is unassailable (let's assume it is for the sake of discussion) then how else do they get into it? The truth is we're a lot more forgiving of UI changes on new platforms (phones, tablets) anyway (although it'll be interesting to see what happens when and IF Apple do innovate again and try something genuinely new). I was very surprised MS didn't copy Android/iOS with Windows Phone - and pleasantly surprised in that it's actually pretty good (and I don't own one - GNexus here).

    Kingpotnoodle makes a very good point about blurring lines - after all if my Windows 8 tablet here has keyboard, touch, pen and mouse what exactly is it? I have no idea where MS is going with their approach other than eventually MUI will replace pretty much everything and in order to do so will have to change quite a lot yet before it's really going to fulfil the needs of applications that are currently tied to Win32. That's going to take a darn long time - not only for the platform but for the applications that support it. For users it needs to evolve (a lot) because i'm not convinced split screen/full screen apps are a good idea versus windowed ones for a variety of reasons. That said that multi device one-app-everywhere idea is a nice one - but so hard to achieve and impossible in the short term. I suppose it's a very good reason why others haven't yet tried it and for me it seems pretty unthinkable that a company like MS would try something so, well, risky. Then again, if you've weathered a release like Vista so easily do MS actually care that much if 8 isn't an out-the-park success?
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    Re: News - Next Windows officially named Windows 8.1 - free for Win8 users

    They get into it by making their platform the best (if they can) so people picking new devices want it, not by shoving on users of an entirely different platform, to which it isn't well suited, and alienating a lot of them in the first place.

    The fact that they forced it, or rather, tried to, is exactly why I'm so annoyed, and why I'll stay with 7 indefinitely, or move to Linux, before I go MUI. While third party solutions are available, that's an option, but if MS ever come up with a way of blocking that, I'll quit Windows before adopting MUI. I tried it, hated it, and in anything like it's current form, they can shove it where the sun don't shine.

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    Re: News - Next Windows officially named Windows 8.1 - free for Win8 users

    Yayyyyy another thread where people who are critical of the changes in win 8 are accused of being lazy luddites despite an alarmingly high number of people around the world with the same opinion, haven't seen one of these since... last week

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    Re: News - Next Windows officially named Windows 8.1 - free for Win8 users

    Being in the majority doesn't make you right!

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    Re: News - Next Windows officially named Windows 8.1 - free for Win8 users

    Quote Originally Posted by Willzzz View Post
    Being in the majority doesn't make you right!
    How can you still not get this? There is no right and wrong, just differences of opinion. Unfortunately from evidence in these kind of threads, it seems liking windows 8 seems to bring with it an overwhelming impression of arrogance, intolerance and elitism all packaged in a lovely condescending ball of stubbornness.

    Doesn't seem to matter how anyone presents their evidence to back up their conclusion, it all comes down to 'lazy people who dont like change'.

    Im with Cat on this one... no time for it.

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    Re: News - Next Windows officially named Windows 8.1 - free for Win8 users

    So why bring it up?

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    Re: News - Next Windows officially named Windows 8.1 - free for Win8 users

    Of course she said “Windows just keeps getting better and better every day”. What kind of marketing would that be if she said "“Windows just keeps getting more bloated and unusable every day”. What anyone actually expect PR people to say, and why do people listen to them at all? It's rubbish. Why do we watch ads? Of course they'll say "our products are superior, you can't live without them. Logic... LOL

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    Re: News - Next Windows officially named Windows 8.1 - free for Win8 users

    Quote Originally Posted by Saracen View Post
    They get into it by making their platform the best (if they can) so people picking new devices want it, not by shoving on users of an entirely different platform, to which it isn't well suited, and alienating a lot of them in the first place..
    Sounds lovely - completely impractical (see previous musing(s)), but lovely nonetheless. As I said, it's not about end users as much as a new platform and developers for it (and MS' future).

    Irrespective - MS haven't really ever blocked anything - you can replace the whole darn shell if you want to (I used to) or explorer (I use Opus) - so their is choices. That MS doesn't supply ever choice under the sun (wherever it may shine) is neither surprising or shocking. What is (to me) is how angry you seem to be about the whole thing because it really doesn't bother me much at all (hence my interest). Ah well.

    Quote Originally Posted by Biscuit View Post
    Doesn't seem to matter how anyone presents their evidence to back up their conclusion, it all comes down to 'lazy people who dont like change'.
    Two way street - I hate that argument too but it's equally annoying when people scream expletives and don't back up their conclusion (which is all too often the case). It'd be far more useful to debate what practical things could be changed to improve things rather than people on one side being blinded by 'its new and perfect so there' and on the other 'trivial inconvenience (with easy workarounds) has made Windows completely unusable'. It seems you have to be all-in or all-out and nothing else which is nonsensical to me. MUI is a sideshow part of Windows to me at the moment - not a central part of my day.
    Last edited by dangel; 17-05-2013 at 01:19 PM.
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    Re: News - Next Windows officially named Windows 8.1 - free for Win8 users

    Quote Originally Posted by dangel View Post
    Sounds lovely - completely impractical (see previous musing(s)), but lovely nonetheless. As I said, it's not about end users as much as a new platform and developers for it (and MS' future).

    Irrespective - MS haven't really ever blocked anything - you can replace the whole darn shell if you want to (I used to) or explorer (I use Opus) - so their is choices. That MS doesn't supply ever choice under the sun (wherever it may shine) is neither surprising or shocking. What is (to me) is how angry you seem to be about the whole thing because it really doesn't bother me much at all (hence my interest). Ah well.

    ....
    I have not and would not suggest MS supply all sorts of interfaces. But, when they remove the one we've all used for years and replace it with something that requires getting used to new ways of doing things, I expect it to at least be an improvement. As I went into at length in another thread, I'm angry because MUI offers me nothing of any use to me, and removes the old UI. As I've said, I'd have no problem with the default being MUI, provided I get offered the choice to change from the default to "classic".

    The reason I'm angry is that I don't like the attempt by MS to strong-arm me (and everyone else) into doing what they want because it suits them.

    MS used to have, for me at least, the only game in town. That's no longer the case. The last brick in that wall vanished when Adobe announced no further "product" version of Photoshop and that, post-CS6, it was subscription only. I'm not going there, either. So, Win 7 or a modified Start8'd Win8, and CS6, will do me for, well, years I suppose. And since Photoshop was only only thing I actually need Windows for, other than legacy stuff some of which is still on XP machines anyway, if I ever need to upgrade, I don't actually need Windows.

    I'm angry because I don't like being strong-armed.

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    Re: News - Next Windows officially named Windows 8.1 - free for Win8 users

    I need to buy a copy soon

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    Re: News - Next Windows officially named Windows 8.1 - free for Win8 users

    Quote Originally Posted by dangel View Post
    Two way street - I hate that argument too but it's equally annoying when people scream expletives and don't back up their conclusion (which is all too often the case). It'd be far more useful to debate what practical things could be changed to improve things rather than people on one side being blinded by 'its new and perfect so there' and on the other 'trivial inconvenience (with easy workarounds) has made Windows completely unusable'. It seems you have to be all-in or all-out and nothing else which is nonsensical to me. MUI is a sideshow part of Windows to me at the moment - not a central part of my day.
    Like I said though, it doesn't matter how one goes about trying to discuss it (which many of us have in other threads) a fresh one starts and the same people chirp in with the same arguments as if the previous debate/discussion never happened. I'm not going to to go through the same articles and explanations I have already gone through to prove that it's not simple inconveniences which are the problem, just because someone too stubborn to take it in and try and understand it has conveniently forgotten it or didn't bother to read it the first time.

    Also, why do I give a damn if supporting software is hard work for a team of developers? I'm a consumer, I want a product that works for me, it's up to the developers to do that. If they don't want to do it they can cry into their cornflakes for all I care.

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    Re: News - Next Windows officially named Windows 8.1 - free for Win8 users

    The thing is that none of us are happy with any operating system out of the box. You always have to install programs, create shortcuts, etc. to get things how you want them.

    Those of you on Win7, yes it may be set up just the way you like, but that's because you made it that way. Microsoft didn't produce a product that was magically right for you as an individual, you took a bit of time to customise it. Do the same thing with Win8 and all those niggles you experience with the blank canvas you get after install just disappear.

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    Re: News - Next Windows officially named Windows 8.1 - free for Win8 users

    Quote Originally Posted by Willzzz View Post
    The thing is that none of us are happy with any operating system out of the box. You always have to install programs, create shortcuts, etc. to get things how you want them.

    Those of you on Win7, yes it may be set up just the way you like, but that's because you made it that way. Microsoft didn't produce a product that was magically right for you as an individual, you took a bit of time to customise it. Do the same thing with Win8 and all those niggles you experience with the blank canvas you get after install just disappear.
    Only by downloading and installing 3rd party tools, whether paid-for (but cheap) or free /open-source.

    Or am I missing something? Please explain how to "configure" Windows 8 to give me my familiar Start button back, and much more importantly, start menus, and to get rid of Win8 sidebar, hot-corners, etc, without downloading and installing non-MS tools?

    All I want is a plain desktop no fancy graphics, backdrops, screensavers, etc, and the long-familiar menus. Yes, I configure things. I put certain icons on the desktop as shortcuts, some on the toolbar, I put the toolbar on the top (not bottom) and I have it permanently there, not appearing/disappearing on mouseover.

    I also immediately create a series of menus, like Comms, Office, Accounts, Utilities, Games, Graphics, etc., dropping down from that bar.

    In the past, MS introduce a change but you can select "Classic", and carry on as you were. You can have that mouseover toolbar, or not. You can have a fancy desktop graphic, or not. I've never uttered a word of complaint about any such changes, because a few dialig boxes and a few mouseclicks and I'm back how I want things.

    So please, enlighten me, where are the options in Win 8 to just carry on and not have to learn how to do things how MS want me to do them? How can I "configure" the OS to get it back to how it was, and ignore and disable all the MUI stuff?

    It is NOT just a case of configuring a new OS install, is it? To get back the OS how it was, we have to go out and find which tool will bring back the stuff MS deliberately took out. That means research, which one does what, how well it does it, and indeed, whether the third-party is actually genuine or whether it's a cover for installing a trojan or malware. And we have to do this because, in their zeal to shove us onto MUI, MS saw fit to try to force matters by actualling removing the ability to "configure" Win 8 to work how Win 7 worked. And that is why I'm angry.

    As I've said countless times, if they'd retained the ability to "configure" our install how we want, even as a non-default as they did in the past, there wouldn't be a backlash, at least, not by me. But they simply didn't let us "configure", did they? They tried to force us all to work a different way, and it's only by virtue of 3rd-party tools, with varying degrees of versatility, that we can configure, and only then by doing a study, review and analysis of the various tools, with the time, hassle, cost and risk that entails.

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    Re: News - Next Windows officially named Windows 8.1 - free for Win8 users

    So if you have done all that what is the problem?
    If you have a series of drop down menus isn't that essentially what the start menu is?

    We've had the ability to add menus to the start bar since XP, it doesn't take any research..

    If you don't want to use the MUI/charms bar just don't activate them.

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    Re: News - Next Windows officially named Windows 8.1 - free for Win8 users

    Still not seeing an actual incentive to upgrade from Windows 7, especially considering that I already know it will cause certain games I enjoy playing to stop working.

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